Lets take a little break from politics and have us a real atheist conversation.
Personally, I’m open to the idea of the existence of supernatural phenomena, and I believe mainstream religions are actually complicated incomplete stories full of misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and half-truths.
Basically, I think that these stories are not as simple and straightforward as they seem to be to religious people. I feel like there is a lot more to them. Concluding that all these stories are just made up or came out of nowhere is kind of hard for me.
I’ll believe anything you tell me, including gods and magic, as long as you can present evidence appropriate to your claim. Anyone who wants me to believe what they’re saying about anything divine or supernatural had better be able to back it up, or else I’m going to laugh in their face.
An interesting case for you to dive into: The Skinwalker Ranch.
I was quite interested in Snikwalker ranch for a hot second like 2 years ago, and what I can say is: There’s no real evidence of anything supernatural, most of the claims are unverifiable and made by people who wanna believe in the first place, the previous owner of the ranch claimed they made up the supernatural bits to sell it, and every popular bit of information about is coded in scary music and spooky effects on TV programmes. I’d actually like to see if you got any like, scientific articles about it, because I never went that far with my interest. Just seems like a ranch with weird radio interference on Tuesdays. I’m open to accepting the existence of supernatural stuff, but evidence wise, I’ve never seen anything conclusive.
Why would I be interested in alien ghost stories? Cattle mutilation and alien abduction aren’t credible examples of the supernatural.
You’re reluctant for some reason. If you don’t challenge your beliefs, how do you expect to grow? There’s more to it than just cattle mutilations and alien abductions.
Okay, I’m listening. Show me the evidence. Explain the supernatural to me.
Definition. I’ve already given you something to dive into. The Skinwalker Ranch. You can listen to the story on this channel. Great voice, and visuals.
If you don’t have anything to offer, don’t waste my time. I’m not interested in someone else’s explanation, and I know the definition. I want to see how you justify the claim. I’ll bet a thousand dollars cash that you can’t back it up. I’m confident in making that bet because if you could, you’d be the first.
Sorry but I’m going to call out what I see as some pretty blatant motte-and-bailey argumentation by the OP and their offense taken to people trying to nail down the definition of supernatural is illustrative.
They have their bailey, belief in things like the occult, ghosts, demons, etc, that are almost certainly bullshit. To the extent that they can be falsified, they have been. This is the typical definition of what people think when you say “supernatural” and people are right to answer “no” when asked if they believe in it.
But then you have OP falling back on their motte when this happens, taking a nebulous definition of supernatural and asking rhetorical philosophical questions about reality, perception, and the unknown. The fallacy is that these questions do nothing to strengthen or refute the original argument about the supernatural.
Nobody is here to argue that nothing is unknown and even unknowable but that doesn’t make the things that people typically call “supernatural” any less bullshit. Demons and ghosts are just not the kinds of things that are waiting around to surprise us. And shifting the conversation from your bailey to your motte to protect your feelings on the former is not a good way to have a friendly debate.
All that aside, if you are interested in expanding your understanding of the universe then I’d really encourage you to divert the effort you’re putting into the “supernatural” into learning about the actual natural universe instead. Our universe really is fantastic on its own. There’s plenty of interesting, wacky, and unknown things happening all around us that you can learn about without resorting to magic. If anything, magic is the boring answer imo.
They have their bailey, belief in things like the occult, ghosts, demons, etc, that are almost certainly bullshit. To the extent that they can be falsified, they have been. This is the typical definition of what people think when you say “supernatural” and people are right to answer “no” when asked if they believe in it.
You say that people are right to answer “no” when asked if they believe in this stuff. That is just not true at all. That’s because that as much as good evidence can be hard to come by for supernatural stuff, there is also no official evidence whatsoever that proves that such things do not exist. Therefore, the most accurate answer should really be “I don’t know”, because of the subject’s unfalsifiable nature, and how it’s outside scientific testing. You still have a right to say “yes”, or “no” though.
But then you have OP falling back on their motte when this happens, taking a nebulous definition of supernatural and asking philosophical questions about reality, perception, and the unknown. The fallacy is that these questions do nothing to strengthen or refute the original argument about the supernatural.
That “nebulous” definition of supernatural that I keep using IS the literal definition of the word. You even described it yourself how I described it on your second paragraph, first line. Yes, I have been “asking philosophical questions about reality, perception, and the unknown”. And why can’t I do that? My post is an open-ended question. This means that the conversation can go anywhere, provided that the context continues to match the topic of the post. What do you mean by “original argument about the supernatural”? Again, this post is meant to be an open-ended question where others contribute their thoughts on the supernatural, I share my opinions on their thoughts, and we agree, or disagree. There is no “original argument about the supernatural”.
Nobody is here to argue that nothing is unknown and even unknowable but that doesn’t make the things that people typically call “supernatural” any less bullshit. Demons and ghosts are just not the kinds of things that are waiting around to surprise us. And shifting the conversation from your bailey to your motte to protect your feelings on the former is not a good way to have a friendly debate.
Actually, people here have argued such, as supernatural phenomena is a mysterious topic. Nowhere have I declared that there are no BS claims in the supernatural world. However, saying that all supernatural claims are complete BS without evidence supporting it is a biased take. Some are debunked, and some aren’t, which is how we end up with unexplained claims that are beyond rational explanation. A scenario like this is the reason why we should stay open-minded about supernatural phenomena, instead of completely denouncing it.
I’ll tell you why I say the answer is no to whether or not the occult, demons, or ghosts exist. There’s a phenomenon in statistics where if you were to select a random element from an infinite set of equally probable elements, the probability that a specific element will be selected is 0%. Not close to 0, literally 0.
These kinds of supernatural phenomena that have no evidence belong to an infinite set of equally unlikely phenomena with no evidence. Their likelihood of being real is 0%. Only when phenomena has some tangible evidence explaining it can we elevate it to a finite set with a non-zero likelihood of being real.
If that’s your stance, it’s ok. We can agree to disagree. I still choose to sit on the fence.
…there is also no official evidence whatsoever that proves that such things do not exist
That statement right there sums up the problem.
No, you cannot prove that the supernatural does not exist. The same way you cannot prove that god doesn’t exist, or that there isn’t a teakettle in orbit around the sun between Venus and Mercury. The lack of evidence against their existence is not evidence for it. However, since there have been so many claims of supernatural phenomena, gods and near-sun teakettles, and none of them have been shown to be true, I feel confident in saying that they don’t exist.
Here are some interesting counterpoints though…
The James Randi prize has never been claimed. No person has been able to demonstrate the existence of supernatural phenomena in order to claim an easy 1 million dollars.
Everything that has ever been discovered has turned out to be not magic.
Yes, that’s what I said. No one has ever proven that it doesn’t exist. Therefore, you can’t completely denounce it. This concept is also applied in Science. It’s why I said that the most accurate answer you can give is “I don’t know”, if asked if you believe in it. As for James Randi, other factors can contribute to why no one showed him anything. One can be word of his challenge not getting to enough people. Like me. This is the first time I’ve heard of him and his challenge. Another one can be those who actually had something to show wanting privacy. Another can be disinterest, gatekeeping… etc. There’s many factors. If you’re interested, the story of The Skinwalker Ranch is a bizzare unexplained case involving the supernatural that you can dive into if you’re looking to research this stuff. I recommend listening to it on this channel. The guy behind it has a great voice, and nice visuals. You should also check out this channel. It’s great for skeptics, because the guy behind it debunks what he can, and leaves it for you to decide what to think of it.
You should definitely read the “criticisms” page on the Skinwalker Ranch wikipedia. Then you might know who James Randi was. Dude was a famous magician, and had multiple TV shows. I’d say for sure he’s more famous than Robert Munroe or the Skinwalker Ranch.
There are obviously criticisms lol. What supernatural case doesn’t have any? I still recommend checking it out though. There’s a lot to the story.
No, it looks like there is nothing to the story, other than a few local legends and gullible rube with a lot of money.
Can you link to raw video or photos of paranormal events there?.. Because all I see when I look around is dopey conspiracy theorists fucking around in the scrub
If you don’t want to check it out, that’s fine. I can’t force you to. We can agree to disagree.
Slight nitpick, I don’t “believe” there is no higher power. I don’t believe in any of the claims people have made that a higher power exists. By default we don’t believe in anything.
I do not currently believe in any supernatural anything, for the exact same reasons I do not believe in gods.
- There is no persuasive evidence of anything supernatural
- Many supernatural phenomena were discovered to have naturalistic explanations
- The only evidence provided for supernatural phenomena is anecdotal
It’s entirely possible for there to be supernatural stuff, but the time to believe it is when it is demonstrated.
One point that I don’t see raised a lot is that otherwise perfectly mentally healthy people can experience hallucinations. They may even find them comforting, and some even then do not believe the visions are real. I have a suspicion that a lot of ghost sightings, etc, might be such hallucinations. But I can’t demonstrate that, and I’m honestly not sure how we could, unless we can find a way to trigger such hallucinations on purpose.
Don’t forget carbon monoxide poisoning most likely contributed significantly to ghost stories before the risks of indoor fires for heat were known.
Most ghost sightings happen in low lighting when our brains are trying to fill the gaps of limited information. Evolution taught meat to think and it doesn’t do the best job at times.
Well it is better (for survival) to imagine a predator than to imagine an ice cream truck.
I suppose I’m more thinking about examples like one in this comment section where they see a ghost sober in the middle of the day.
Agreed. I had a ghost encounter in 2019, as an atheist with no supernatural beliefs since 2007. I knew in the moment that it was a hallucination, but accepted it as an emotional release for what it seemed to be at the time.
The only phenomenon that I take seriously as potentially supernatural, or connected to something we have no way of explaining is the experience of consciousness.
Fair. You should check out Robert Monroe.
While James Randi was alive, he offered $1,000,000 for proof of the supernatural. He never got that proof. I think that’s pretty telling.
There’s stuff I’ve experienced that I can’t understand or explain. Certainly, I trust other’s witnesses of their own experiences, even if they seem supernatural to me. But, I don’t consider that good enough evidence to believe in the supernatural.
Unexplained does not mean unexplainable nor supernatural.
There are all kinds of things in my life I have experienced that I cannot explain. For one thing, I am not an expert on everything. For another, I am a prisoner inside a skull that has to rely on not especially precise equipment in terms of sensory input. In other words, the meat sacks in our heads cannot be trusted. In fact, going back to Randi, if they could be trusted, Randi and other magicians would never have a job.
None of that is evidence for the supernatural.
Let me preface this by saying I tend to go with the Null hypothesis until proven otherwise, and as such don’t believe in the unproven supernatural.
Regardless, there are two ways to interpret James Randi never getting proof.
- There are no provable supernatural claims.
- Those who could prove a supernatural claim have
no use forsome reason a $1,000,000 prize would not be sufficiently enticing.
Edit: Reworked #2 for accuracy and clarity. Added wording in italics.
Re number. 2, they must also either be ignorant of the existence of charities or can’t think of a single one that could use that $1,000,000 they would have no use for. So I don’t accept that.
Perhaps. Though it’s entirely conceivable that the cost of revealing said supernatural proof would be detrimental to their life in such a way that no use of a $1,000,000 would justify it. Or, ala Mr. Manhattan, they have lost their empathy and/or worldly concern. Or they could just be massive dicks who could make $1,000,000 easier if their secret is kept, like Hayden Christensen in Jumper.
So I stand by my point that only looking at James Randi’s $1,000,000 prize as proof that “there are no supernatural claims that can be proven” is an example of sampling bias.
Assuming the correctness of a hypothesis without sufficiently disproving potentially valid alternatives is how we wound up with the acceptance of the supernatural. It’s just bad epistemology.
Regardless, I believe that James Randi’s offer, combined with the lack of any other provable and sufficiently documented supernatural occurrences means it’s more than reasonable to not hold any belief in the supernatural. I certainly don’t myself.
ETA: 3. I suppose a third possibility is they were unable/unwilling to travel or were entirely unaware of said prize. Something like a hermetic monk for example.
If I had legit supernatural powers, $1,000,000 would be chump change to reveal those powers. No way.
Yeah that’s dr evil in the 90s thinking. Manipulate the stock exchange and cash out 100 billion.
Bro, what is a hermetic monk 💀.
Definition taken from Merriam Webster (note: I’ve removed definitions not pertinent to my usage)
hermetic adjective
- b: Relating to or characterized by subjects that are mysterious and difficult to understand: Relating to or characterized by occultism or abstruseness
a hermetic discussion
- b: impervious to external influence
trapped inside the hermetic military machine
c: recluse, solitary
leads a hermetic life
So in this context, I guess I’m using both meanings. As in they are isolated monks with knowledge of the occult and esoteric.
There is no such thing as a hermetic monk. Hermeticism is a philosophy.
Hemeticism is certainly a philosophy, however the term hermetic monk is often used to denote a member of an isolated monastic group.
ex. Article on hermetic monks in Big Sur
A paywalled article referring to hermetic monks in France
None of the aforementioned monks were practitioners of Hermeticism. So while it may not be fully accurate to the origins of Hermeticism, the term “hermetic monk” does infact exist and is infact used to refer to members of esoteric isolated monastic groups.
Beyond that, the term “hermetic”, as cited by Merriam Webster, does apply to my usage. So if you would rather read it as a “monk who is hermetic by nature”, that would also get my same point across while avoiding confusion with Hermeticism as a philosophy.
I don’t think it makes sense as a term. If it occurs in the real world, has real impacts on it, but is hard to understand that doesn’t mean it is supernatural, just not understood. The double slit experiment is not supernatural, just hard to understand. Things can happen in coincidental ways, but something had to happen so even if very coincidental it can be natural. What would it mean to be supernatural? I mean, really, some small part of the universe behaving badly for a moment for a reason we don’t understand is not magic, it is just ignorance on our part. So I am open to phenomena, they happen, but a supernatural explanation could never be justified in my view. Just because I can’t think of why something happens doesn’t make it magic, it could far more easily be something we have seen time and again, my own ignorance.
I think it’s hard to find “true experiences with the supernatural” credible because even if the person believes it happened: humans make for awful sensors. They might feel warm when they’re cold or vice versa. They regularly see things that don’t exist. More than half of us appear to be some kind of moron.
And why would a ghost be unmeasurable? Why could something be truly ethereal when everything ever measured or recorded is not? Plus, the seemingly random limitations on any sort of fairy, ghost, or deity make it pretty much dead in the water as far as theories go. Imagine this, you’re some kind of land-god of wealth and/or stealing and potentially eating babies. But you go years or decades without fulfilling your own theme or being seen by humans? And you can’t leave your territory as defined by human maps like you need permission from city councilmen?
All of this on top of the belief I hold that life is a culmination of billions of tiny mechanisms that, upon systemic failure, result in something akin to gears no longer turning in a clock means: either machinery and electronics all have “souls” or humans don’t. Where would you draw the line? Do waterfalls have souls? The grand canyon? Dogs?
So pretty unlikely, all things considered.
People do not understand that visual hallucinations can happen to anyone when they are sober. Our brains are not perfect machines.
Overall, 84.8 percent of the volunteers that took part in the study reported having experienced some form of anomalous visual experiences in their life. More than a third of them (37.8 percent) reported that they had experienced an actual visual hallucination similar to what a patient with a psychotic disorder may experience. When the scientists analyzed the additional questions of whether an experience would agree with a clinical definition of visual hallucinations, about 17.4 percent of volunteers had experienced a hallucination that met these criteria.
And I’m guessing the other 15.2 either didn’t remember or didn’t really understand the question.
It’s even more a problem with hearing things that aren’t there or, far more commonly, just hearing something but misidentifying it. The whole EVP thing that “paranormal investigators” are so fond of is all about hearing a sound and just assuming that sound is a voice because of our flawed brains (and flawed ears).
Humans seem to be wired to be like this. That’s why pareidolia is a thing.
Honestly, 15% sounds like it’s right in the range of the number of people who will just lie on surveys - be it purposefully or not – in order to present a superior version of themselves to a piece of paper.
Our Brains are a meat pudding that runs on less electricity than a light bulb. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to get some hallucinations and signal interference. Especially when the pudding is stressed or poisoned . Plus we straight up know there are senses and ranges of senses we do not perceive. Reality is another thing all together through the eyes of a mantis shrimp. Our perception is incredibly biased and limited, so miracles (magic) are an easy explanation when our senses fail us.
Some say that our brains are actually filters. What we perceive is just what your brain lets us perceive, and that there’s more to the universe than we could ever comprehend.
You know how various fantasy and sci-fi settings will say something like, “____ uses both science and magic,” when describing how the world works? That ususally makes no sense. If magic has laws consistent enough to be used in machinery, it is just another branch of science. But with that out of the way, is that the only thing magic can be?
If magic was not just another type of science, it would have to supercede the natural world. Imagine a fantasy world that has gods who bestow power to their acolytes. Rather than using a natural process that could be recreated by mortals, the gods could actually break physical laws or even write new ones on a whim. In this world, magic isn’t bound by a naturalistic worldview since it can change based on what a free-thinking entity chooses at any given moment.
That was a roundabout way of saying, “I don’t think it matters.” If the supernatural (magic) is knowable, we do not currently know it. If it turned out to be real, we may not even have a way of meaningfully interacting with it.
My thoughts on supernatural phenomena?
Name one.
Astral projection/OBEs.
Fake bullshit.
Look up Robert Monroe.
Neat I guess. Still not a real thing.
I see altered states of consciousness mentioned a lot. Basically means your brain isn’t functioning like normal. It does not mean that you’re able to move your consciousness outside of your body.
Go ahead and look up pseudoscience.
No, like dive into his work. The gateway tapes, his books, his partnership with the CIA… etc. You should read the documents. Just a glance at a few Google results isn’t enough.
You didn’t look up pseudoscience, did you?
Well, if that’s what they’re calling it, they’re right. It’s not science now, is it? This is supernatural shit. I still recommend watching this video if you’re feeling too lazy to research. The guy behind the channel is great for skeptics. Debunks what he can, leaves the unexplained for you to decide.
“Natural” simply means “real”. Any phenomena that does exist, known or not, is by definition natural.
I think it’s highly unlikely and the universe is amazing and bizarre enough without us imagining outside forces acting on it.
Paraphrasing I believe — Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
No nothing is “supernatural “. We may not yet know what we’re seeing or exactly what happened… we simply don’t understand it yet.
Yet is relevant point there IMHO. We will.
and not understanding how something functions isnt a reason to assign intent or awareness to the thing.
But there is also a possibility that what we don’t understand transcends the laws of nature. That’s what supernatural means. A possibility that our universe is also governed by supernatural forces, as much as it is governed by natural forces.
deleted by creator
If something can “transcend” the laws of nature, then the ability to do that is part of the laws of nature, and thus it transcends nothing. We just didn’t know all of the rules.
If ghosts are real, then they aren’t breaking the rules of nature because clearly the rules of nature allow for ghosts, we just don’t understand how yet, but then ghosts are natural.
By definition, anything real is natural, and anything supernatural is not.
But we still need the word “supernatural” to describe such things. Otherwise, what do we call the phenomena?
Fictional
That’s just a weak reformulation of the “God of the gaps” fallacy.
The difference is that science is observable and testable, god is not. This key difference, changes it from being a fallacy.
So, in the god of the gaps fallacy it goes like this:
- GotG: Something unknown = GOD!
- Science: Something unknown = “We don’t know!”
- GotG: Ghosts = GOD!!
- Science: Ghosts = “We need a way to reliably test and confirm!”
Science isn’t anti-god either. It’s just pro-knowledge. Observable, testable, verifiable knowledge.
Science isn’t anti-god either. It’s just pro-knowledge. Observable, testable, verifiable knowledge.
This part. If ghosts are observable, testable, and verifiable, then we would have a way of measuring things. Maybe ghosts are 4th dimensional entities. It’s very possible they are real and it’s purely something we haven’t been able to measure thus far.
Science gets stuff wrong all the time. The point of science is to be adapting and learning. And part of that involves verifying credibility of a new source of information.
Unfortunately, almost all of the sources of “proof” of things like ghosts are heavily biased in favor of proving things over disproving, and there are a lot of people throwing clear scams into the mix. Science needs to go in with an open mind. “I want ghosts to be real, and the wind moved this door, therefore it was a ghost” is not valid proof of ghosts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WohbNt18wNs Things like this. A pastor that can walk on air, which is clearly fake. If the pastor believed he could walk on air, why would he fake it. This is not proof that people CAN’T walk on air, but it’s a great example of why when someone claims they can, you should figure out why lying about it benefits them (this guy clearly wants more people to tithe to his church).
GotG benefits from the default being “GOD!” for all things, because it leaves them in power. Science has no benefit from anything except the truth. Sure there will be liars in science as well and a lot of people will optimistically want to believe the lies if they sound nice, but looking at things like LK-99, it winds up disproven when it’s a lie. Capitalism and industry don’t care about your fake superconductor. That doesn’t benefit them, they only care about real superconductors.
Saying that I’m making a god of the gaps argument would also mean that you are making a science of the gaps argument.
Except, when you fill the gaps with science, you have evidence and proof. Not superstition and ancient myth.
But you’re still leading yourself into a fallacious argument. It’s not any better.
It’s only a fallacious argument if you don’t say “we can’t answer that yet” and maybe add, “but here are some theories…”
“I don’t know” does not mean “therefore the supernatural is real.”
Er um— no.
There is nothing that is “supernatural “
There is nothing that is proven and repeated not beholden to the laws of nature.
Yes it is possible, but there isn’t any proof of anything transcending nature. You’re making a “god of the gaps” argument. It is illogical to assume that god or anything supernatural keeps getting smaller and smaller so as to hide in those ever shrinking gaps.
But we need a name to describe such extraordinary events. If you erase it, what do we call such phenomena? There’s a reason why the word exists. Also, saying that I’m making a god of the gaps argument would also mean that you are making a science of the gaps argument, where you assume that science will always have an answer, and that it is the only truth. It’s why I believe that it’s best to sit on the fence on this topic, your mind being open to ideas of supernatural phenomena, as you still consider rational scientific explanations.
This “then why do we have a word for that” is such a a strange argument
We also have a word for elves, doesn’t mean they exist
It’s the same logic I see people applying to Korean, with arguments like “they have no word for depression, therefore they’re happier”, completely ignoring the fact that they have a bridge called “suicide bridge” (guess why)
If you think the word supernatural is so unneeded, you can petition for it to be taken out of dictionaries and Wikipedia.
If by natural forces we mean things like gravity, electromagnetism, color (strong force), and flavor (weak force), then absolutely there are phenomena that transcend those.
Those things are logic, causality, time, identity, math, etc. Ontology or metaphysics would be the formal subject. A lot of people in philosophy already study this, and it’s considered one of the main branches of philosophy alongside epistemology and ethics/morality.
I’ve been studying causality lately, and it’s fascinating how one of the best theories of it is that we diagnose causal relations based on how regular/reproducible they appear (Regularity Theory of Causation or RTC).
