Need a plate of generic, insipid platitudes with a giant helping of bad science and misogyny?
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One of my favorite examples of Jordan Peterson stupidity is when he was lecturing about some ancient civilization artwork that showed two serpent creatures creating humanity. He said that because the snakes were drawn in a double helix that this ancient civilization knew about and wanted to represent DNA.
Snakes coil around one another in a double helix when they mate. The snake creatures in the art were just fucking.
Source is at 1:15:39 in this vid: https://youtu.be/hSNWkRw53Jo?si=MPWip62wkrMX_bP7
Stuff like this is why I will never understand people following him. Like, I get it. It’s the bigotry. And when it comes to that, nothing else matters. I understand it on paper.
But at the same time… why? When he’s constantly wrong, or when they have to constantly lie about the things he says, why keep listening to him? Why are they like this?
Because he ‘sounds’ smart, so they latch on to that as their plausible legitimacy as to why what he says must be true.
When he talks/writes, he says a lot of words that communicate nothing. You have no idea what his point is.
Which is a kind of superpower that makes him hard to criticize. Whenever he commits to a fact or something, that’s easy to disprove, and people do it all the time. But, when he just says something about cultural marxism or whatever, it’s so hard to unpack what he’s actually saying that it’s hard to prove he’s wrong.
That lets his followers say that he’s so smart that even the leftist intellectuals can’t take him down. Obviously they don’t understand what he’s saying either, but that doesn’t matter. It lets them adore him as some kind of intellectual hero.
Peterson’s got the act of a public intellectual down pat. He’s never seen without a suit or with a smile, he has a distinguished haircut and a trimmed beard. He shows no sense of humour and uses big sciencey-sounding words.
That lets him have a symbiotic relationship with incels. He makes money selling them things like books, they get to point to a “public intellectual” who’s on their side.
He gish gallops word salads.
But not in an obvious way like say Ben Shapiro. He does it using words that sound plausibly scientificalish.
I just want someone to say to him “So, they say when you truly understand something, you can break it down so that other people can understand it. So, break down what ‘cultural marxism’ is so that one of these poor young men you worry so much about can understand what you mean”.
I’m sure he’d try to deflect, try to gallop, try something. But, I would bet that a good interviewer, just keeping him focused on those two words, would show he has no idea what he’s talking about.
Oh I know this one, it’s called being “Not Even Wrong”
I don’t think so. Not even wrong is for something where you can understand what they’re saying, but what they’re saying is so nonsensical that it’s not even wrong. Peterson instead uses words that seem like they could belong together but that are borrowed from many different fields to end up with something that sounds like it could plausibly mean something if you could unpack the words he’s using, for example, in a debate he said this: “We lose the metaphorical substrate of our ethos.”
That’s not “not even wrong”, it’s just words that have never been used in that order by anyone else, so they could essentially mean anything. Unless you can get him to explain what he means by those words, you can’t say that he’s wrong. But, he’s using those words to deliberately obfuscate what he’s saying, and if you ask him to explain what it means, he’ll just drive the conversation somewhere else.
I can easily deduce from his inability to elaborate, that he has no idea what he means and likes those words together.
A lot of young boys don’t have positive role models and feel lost. I think that, in many ways, we are transitioning as a society and young boys are trying to figure out what it means to be a man.
That said, there are better role models than Peterson. He really seems to think that he has expertise in every area he touches on (and he can’t help but touch everywhere).
Don’t forget the time he wanted to quit benzos to show how masculine he was. His doctors wanted to taper him down so his brain didn’t fry (benzo addiction alters brain chemistry and withdrawal can seriously screw you up or kill you if you stop), but trying to taper off over several years wasn’t manly and powerful. So he flew to Russia and got a few potentially sketchy doctors to put him in a medical coma for a month, and that’s part of why he’s so fucked up now.
Oh, or the part where his daughter convinced him to only ever eat red meat, and literally nothing else.
Even though facing the road to recovery like a man is manlier than an easy band-aid fix where you go nap-nap for a little bit and wake up crazy, but unaddicted.
Thanks for connecting the dots for my dumb ass - it was on the tip of my frontal lobe but I just couldn’t quite make it…
I can only assume he played a bit too much Assassin’s Creed before coming up with that one.
Richard Dawkins has a pretty fun comment about that https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NvzMJqkZV74
I just want to note that Dawkins has almost certainly taken LSD.
That might be, but I think he at least claimed on that podcast that he hadn’t.
It did make me raise an eyebrow when Rogan got him to admit he was afraid of the possibility of Heaven being real, due to it also being eternal.
Bruh, if you really don’t believe in something, why fear it? Do you know how scared I am of the possibility that Jason Vorhees is real? Not at all! I’m also not scared of the idea that Outworld is real and will take over our realm if we lose another tournament…
So shouldn’t the concept of Heaven be just as powerless to his sense of fear?
I’m not making a statement or trying to imply anything, I’m not sold on an afterlife of any kind (I think it’s a lovely idea, but, I also think it literally raining chocolate is a lovely idea), I just found that confusing is all.
Because claiming you have all the knowledge is even dumber than believing in religion.
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Praise the Basilisk, please don’t kill me Basilisk
Even if we assume he somehow made it through the hippy era as a PhD holder without trying it, there’s no way no one has hooked him up in the past ten years.
Idk would you want to be near him when he trips? He doesn’t seem like a fun person to do a substance that can cause experiences of religion with.
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As an agnostic atheist that favors materialism, I found it to be very fun and exciting to do pretty massive doses of psychedelics, especially ones that frequently spur thoughts of “higher powers.” 2C-E, in particular is known for bringing about thoughts about the divine, and that was a lot of fun (I just played around on Universe Sandbox while I came up, put on some good music, then laid on the floor in a blanket and thought about the universe for a few hours).
Dawkins on acid would be a hell of a time
God I gotta trip shrooms this weekend, that one time where I saw myself as a squid outside of my body playing with it and being judged by a stream of squids for refusing to “Stop playing with that thing and move on to embrace your truest self, a being beyond physicality, a being that can take any form or shape it wants, something far great than a human being.”
Was awesome…
God I hate being human. I’d demand to be freed from this flesh prison, but I’m not sure there’s anything to actually let out… That I may actually BE the flesh prison.
I feel like I’m in this weird camp of “I Don’t Want To Be An Atheist!”
Not because I fear Hell or anything, I just find the concept of a cold purely material universe where no greater force than Entropy exists scarier than any interpretation of Tartarus!
Yeah I just worry he might do what I did and find Gaia. Us earth worshippers are annoying enough without Dawkins among us. Though I’ll acknowledge I already had a foot in the door to pantheism at the time
That’s hilarious! I had no idea there was more to this. Thanks for sharing.
Now I gotta track down Rogan and Peterson talking about Dawkins.
If you’re a fan of extreme cringe, Jordan Peterson’s podcast episode with Richard Dawkins is the source for all that. But the double helix thing was probably the most entertaining one.
Holy crap, I just listened to it, it’s a monologue by Peterson. He’s just talking at Dawkins, it’s incredible. Completely oblivious.
20 minutes of rambling builds up to Jordan Peterson saying he thinks people can comprehend DNA by moving their consciousness down to the micro level. Dawkins just repeats that back baffled. Then before he can even give a proper response, Peterson says: “I have have taken extremely high doses of psilocybin.”
The best cringe.
How the fuck do you “move consciousness” and what is the “micro level”,
I understand all of these words, but they are meaningless in this order!
Of course Dawkins and Peterson are rubbing elbows, I mean Peterson is basically the top person on Harris’ speed dial.
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Isn’t Richard Dawkins a bigger transphobe than Peterson, having literally compared being trans to wearing blackface?
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Because Dawkins shouldn’t get a prize for being merely “Not as insane as the other bigot!”
What’s your understanding? Because he literally had humanitarian awards for basically being the biggest piece of shit ever when it came to women and transpeople, especially if they were both!
Lobster Peterson: “The way these snakes are drawn in resemblance to the structure of DNA, it is evident that ancient civilizations were familiar with the concept of DNA.”
Bro, they fucking
I love that channel. It’s one of the best channels I’ve discovered all year. A perfect balance of entertainment with deep dives into current hot topics. It’s like John Oliver but triple the length and even more sarcasm.
Cody’s showdy is absolutely one of the best things. Even just on how he decided to do a bit where his outfit got more deranged as the world got more chaotic and I don’t think he’s straightened his tie since the 2010s
Joke’s on you. The crazy hair guy explained that ancient aliens taught Egyptians how to pyramid dna. Pwned!
It takes a super-advanced alien race to master the forbidden technology of triangles.
I love the hidden racism in those theories. Ancient Egyptians couldn’t possibly have been smart enough to build the pyramids! It must’ve been aliens!
I suppose that’s true for some people.
I revere Ancient Egyptians and think that the disbelief (not denial, mind you) of their accomplishments relates to the sophistication of their math and architecture skills. Same as my disbelief at Ancient Rome’s ability to build a massive colosseum. How anyone could build anything massively impressive that still stands today before the Enlightenment astonishes me.
Really? He’s on the “Ancient Super Humans were Super Geniuses!” pack? I expected him to have a higher level of research than fucking Spirit Science, but naw.
Hell even if they had ladder double helixes the most reasonable explanation would be a laborer did some psychedelics and either blew a priest’s mind with it or decided to incorporate the thing that blew their mind into some detailed work. It’s not difficult structure to imagine while tripping and ancient people sure did trip from time to time.
In general, assume ancient people were on drugs before you assume ancient people had knowledge of the complex structures they didn’t have the tools to observe.
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To be fair, the DNA Helix as we understand it is literally based on an acid trip had by some scientists
Is he the guy that went to Russia for coma treatment?
Yup, to cure benzo habit.
“Depression is a myth; tidy your room. Also, I’ve been clinically depressed for my whole adult life and I shamble from one crisis to another.”
Does he say depression is a myth? And when you get a little respite from the darkness, picking up the depression den a bit feels amazing.
He definitely doesn’t say that.
And then he had to do physical therapy afterwards for months to recover from the medically induced coma that only Russia allows since the rest of the world doesn’t allow the procedure since it isn’t backed by any science.
That guy.
I see a lot of people here talking about how unpersuasive his arguments are. So I think this misses the real issue at hand. Countless young men do find him persuasive. They feel abandoned by everyone else and there is this man who comes along and convinces them he knows “the way”. Talking about how “unconvincing” his arguments are won’t stop this from happening. If anything it will impower in-group type thinking. It’s much more important that we tackle these problems at their source: combat the emotional abandonment of young men
It’s a lot like how people wonder how others fall for scam calls and emails when they look and sound so obviously like bullshit, you’re not the target audience if you see through it.
Exactly
goes out to adopt 1,000 young men
Yes officer that one
Not that young. I mean the 18-35 crowd.
Yes Mistress, that one.
I like where this is going…
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You can’t solve emotional needs with logic
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You’re trying to tackle the problem at the problem rather than prevent it all together. Peterson is a symptom not the real issue
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Do you? Because educated people still fall for this bullshit.
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Countless young men do find him persuasive. They feel abandoned by everyone else and there is this man who comes along and convinces them he knows “the way”. Talking about how “unconvincing” his arguments are won’t stop this from happening.
There really isn’t a way to stop this from happening, short of a complete shake up of American culture and government. The only reason young men gravitate towards JP is because he is telling them what they want to hear.
For the first time in American society, young white men with degrees are no longer guaranteed the middle class life they have always been told they deserve. Instead of realizing that that has been the status quo for literally every other person in the country, and that the system is inherently corrupt…
They are told that they should feel angry, they are told they need to fight to maintain the status quo and domination of power. Jordan Peterson isn’t combating the emotional abandoment of men, he’s stoking it. His only care is to maintain the social norms racial and sexual supremacy.
Also… I don’t buy that young men have been emotionally abandoned, at least not moreso than any other time in history. Just compared to 30 years ago when I was a kid, men now a days have a plethora of ways to connecting to people, or seeking help.
This is a great take but to be fair there is a degree of infantilization that is occuring to the general populace of the United States that stems from the older generations not stepping away and also failing to either teach younger generations how to work outdated systems or build new ones to satisfy the changing world.
A huge percentage has been emotionally abandoned and given over to the electronic babysitters for a while now, and with no ability to feel like an adult by progressing vertically in a career choice and or buy property or start a business and combined with social media making people scared of each other and/or unable to take differing opinions a lot of the (40 and younger by now) generations DO just feel like lonely abandoned children.
I suggest FD signifier’s video as a starting point to familiarize with the issues.
Mom: clean your room
Teen: shut up femoid!
JP: you need to clean your room to slay the dragon of chaos
Teen: OMG so true!
I used to like him. I fell for the crap. To my 16 year old brain what he said made a lot of sense. He had a handful of good points, and it made me believe the rest of the shit he peddled.
I see him now, I look back on how I hung onto his words like a lost lamb, and I can only facepalm.
I realised that the only thing he is good at is marketing, not psychology…
Being 16 is the best excuse you could have for believing anything that cretin says. You’re good bro.
He has some good advice (and some batshit crazy certainly), but not anything stoics weren’t saying 2300 years ago. And he sprinkles on top of that a weird religious-adjacent theories that are perhaps due to his psychedelic use. People seem to confuse that rambling with wisdom, like they usually do with cult leaders.
Still, I think it’s quite probable that he was a fine psychologist and was completely capable of helping individuals in whatever their struggles were. It’s his moving to a youtube stardom that caused all the problems.
As the maoral-less L. Ron Hubbard would say…
“You don’t make money selling a book, if you want to be rich, start a religion”Peterson is just running a dumb cult of generic (kinda bad for most people) advice that hinges on the shared identity of sad lonely boys.
Peter Pan in the books is sad as shit, advice to never grow up and never try to be better just makes people more lonely and miserable.
Peterson is just running a dumb cult of generic (kinda bad for most people) advice that hinges on the shared identity of sad lonely boys.
Peter Pan in the books is sad as shit, advice to never grow up and never try to be better just makes people more lonely and miserable.
Isn’t Peterson’s advice exactly the opposite of Peter Pan’s, though?
Meh, all of the good advice he gives you can get from some other internet guru that isn’t such a grifter.
“clean your room” and “wash yourself” really aren’t that profound.
I dare say that we have plenty of men (and some women) who need advice as lowly as that. If Peterson reaches them, it could be a net positive. Too bad there’s a lot crap in his advice as well.
It’s understandable - back in the day, he had some reasonable points and an academic veneer. If course, what he was saying tended to have a strong bias, and didn’t stand up to scrutiny, but it’s hard to fault a 16 year old looking for guidance for falling for it. Hindsight is 20 20 - particularly when the negative tendencies ratcheted up rapidly over time.
Since his Russian benzo coma (remember, kids - clean your room and don’t criticise others or systemic issues unless your life is perfect… pay no attention to my crippling addiction as I peddle that advice), things took a hard turn. I honestly think he suffered non-trivial brain damage. He’s far more erratic, bursts into tears at the drop of a hat (while trying to sell “traditional” masculinity, his takes have lost their academic veneer and are self-evidently stupid. There’s a reason he may be stripped of his accreditation.
TL;DR: Peterson went from being a pseudo-intellectual preacher to a lolcow, and (to me) the benzo coma seems to have been the catalyst for that shift.
I didn’t know about the benzo thing. And that was the advice from him I appreciated; the clean your room, etc.
I didn’t realise he was a walking blackout the entire time.
And I think his as following grew, so did his ego, and he began to think he knew way more than he actually did.
Ah well. An oversized ego is as bad as a termite infestation - if you let it grow it’ll eventually make things collapse…
Oversized ego is generally a problem with people who take it upon themselves to give advice to society in general. Sometimes you can work around it. The guy has some interesting things to say, and he’s an eloquent look into the rationalization certain people give for the problematic beliefs they already have.
You just have to learn how to approach these people without thinking they have some special right to think and you don’t, because a little thoughtful examination shows much of what he says for the bs it is. That ability frequently comes with age and self sufficiency, which is probably why ye targets the people he does.
Yeah - it speaks to his long-term lack of principles and integrity, but that’s not on you as a teenager. I’m just glad you grew from it, acknowledged when you were wrong, and grew from it - that’s no easy thing to do.
I’m still pissed that because he badly quotes and misinterprets Jung all the time, people assume Jung is bullshit by association.
I think that Jung is bullshit for reasons entirely unrelated to JBP. His ideas are interesting, but not scientifically sound.
I mean a lot of Jungs work is sorta bullshit.
lots of people thought Jung was bullshit way before JBP came around.
I didn’t believe him, I believed the positive messages he send and implanted. I don’t care about him nowadays, but I also don’t regret internalizing certain stuff he preached. It wasn’t totally bullshit of what he said, until a point where he completely drifted off.
Thankfully I stopped watching any of his stuff quite a while before that happened, so I dodged this whole mess and only saw the burning ship wrack from the distance. I understand the hard feelings of others who are more involved in this topic though.
To agree, that something someone said, was correct, isn’t a bad thing. Even if the stuff that follows is off the mark.
To regret that, would also mean regretting failure, but without failure there’s no progress.
I did what I did for everything, and I took it with a grain of salt. This had the unfortunate side effect of just not following others and keeping up with the latest trends. Oh well, I feel happier than ever before
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But by that logic, there’s a terrifying number of adults who also shouldn’t vote.
How so? An adult has a fully-functioning brain, unlike a 16-year-old.
Anyone above 65 for example.
Even dementia patients still have right to vote.
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And we keep that in check how? I ask because I’ve never seen it done successfully and sustainably - even well intentioned autocracies lead to terrible outcomes in pretty short order.
I’ll remind you that the GOP not only exists, but is the party of choice for a little under half of voters - MTG, DeSantis, Trump, Boebert…
Voting age should be 25, since that’s the age when your brain becomes fully mature.
It’s the worst kind of job. Taking advantage of developing teens and their self-issues to make money like that.
How did you steal my alt account? I thought I was the only dipshit on here.
Realistically, half the economy runs essentially on that.
Fashion, large parts of tech (Facebook, Tinder, Pornhub,…), entertainment, …
Never take advice on personal responsibility from a guy who intentionally put himself in a coma to avoid taking responsibility for his addiction to a narcotic with zero medicinal properties.
It’s so weird for me that he seemed surprised that benzos are, in fact, highly addictive with severe withdraw symptoms. Isn’t he a psychologist and potentially someone who is allowed to prescribe such drugs?
Fortunately only psychiatrists can prescribe drugs and they’re actual physicians.
That’s an important distinction that too few people understand:
Psychiatrists: medical doctors with a specialization in mental health who can prescribe drugs
Psychologists: trained professionals with an academic degree who provide mental health care by (generally) talking with you
Both are important health care providers, but they generally do very different things, and in a mental health crisis you best have one of each at hand.
I don’t think psychologists are allowed to prescribe medicine/ drugs. Psychiatrists yes, but not psychologists.
Probably thought pill addiction was just a moral failure so couldn’t possibly apply to him.
Your ignoring 2 facts about him. He’s a liar and he likes taking drugs. A simple Google search will tell you how dangerous it is to abuse. J-dawg didn’t care because he likes taking drugs.
The fact that he got addicted to an antianxiety medication when his personal philosophy involves fighting monsters and dragons is hilariously pathetic.
Also, I dare you to Google “Jordan Peterson Grandma”.
Why…
Seriously what does it mean. He needs to be checked by a Freudian psychologist.
You couldn’t torture that shit out of me. St. Peter could ask me to admit to it to get into heaven, and I’d walk straight past him into hell.
Yes, he’s just a liar
Wasn’t it benzos? They are used to treat anxiety.
Yeah, benzos are not too be fucked with but saying they have no medical purpose is just flat out wrong
Oh? I had heard it was ketamine
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He is such a disappointment to me. Early Peterson was just a clinical psychologist who actually gave a shit about men’s mental health. You could filter out his religion and actually get something out of it. Then he turned into… something else.
I think this is right. I always thought of him (when I thought of him at all) as a mostly apolitical self-help guy, then I noticed that he’d become a kind of villain for the left so I looked into it and he really does seem to have gone off the rails at some point.
There’s some kind of radicalizing feedback cycle at work with guys like Peterson --to name only one prominent example-- and I’m not sure that it’s simply that they were always assholes to begin with. You see a similar dynamic with Elon Musk; it’s almost like they take personal offense at any criticism and instead of thinking about it, they just double down.
Some of it is just inherent to being rewarded for certain things. You don’t have to consciously choose to go that way, but whenever you stray that direction you get social and financial feedback.
Yup as an avid TVO watcher he still has a very seminal discussion on “the meaning of man” that I highly recommend to this day.
https://youtu.be/7uYengUXFG0?si=OP_EJrTpYB9EiFFT
The problem as I see it is the kids ain’t alright and men in particular are struggling with this shifting dynamic in the world. He saw it, as do many of us, but Jesus Christ did he fly off the rails once the pronoun debate started.
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He’s been oppressed by the soviet propaganda posters he hangs inside his house. You can’t just take those things down! You must remember!
Yes, around a decade (or a bit more) ago I also found him interesting, based on a few short youtube videos or things I’ve read. Was never a fan, but as some other comments mentioned, young men were/are looking for these types of belonging and guidance.
Then I of course grew up, formed my own opinions of the world, and the same time he went further and further to the unhinged side, so yi can’t take him seriously anymore.
Transphobia reliably causes brainrot. It’s weird how much faster and harder the effect seems to be relative to other bigotries, but look at Graham Linehan and how he burned his life to the ground.
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He was so much better 𝘣𝘦𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦 𝘩𝘦 𝘵𝘰𝘰𝘬 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘴𝘬 𝘰𝘧𝘧.
Nah mate, this now is who he always was.
Yeah you’re not wrong, I just wish there wasn’t a mask.
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Most of his fans have never really read his more academic works (like the one with the grandma sex dream). So, I guess they like his vibe. But his vibe is weepy alcoholic. What’s so great about that?
Most of his fans have never really read
his more academic works (like the one with the grandma sex dream). So, I guess they like his vibe. But his vibe is weepy alcoholic. What’s so great about that?I recently had a fairly high fever and became pretty emotional over absolutely mundane shit. JBP talks and acts like has a brain damaging fever every day of his life.
I like
How he’s started
Making all
His tweets
Like
This
He dresses like a comic book villain on purpose now, too.
His brain is just too powerful for us plebs to comprehend
Do you know how he got those scars, bucko?
spoiler
Apple cider.
He’s just posting through it lol
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I don’t know whether he recognizes it but 20 something disenfranchised dudes are uniquely subsceptible to aphorisms without context and if there’s one thing JBP does well it’s that
He’s a university professor. That’s their bread and butter. It’s a skill they learn to prevent undergrads from nodding off during their lectures.
Weepy alcoholic is coded tragically cognoscent in America.
There’s only one weepy alcoholic I’ll stan and it’s
Oh god, this is so embarassing for us as a society. Young men look for guidance, and all they find is Rape Tate who tells you to be an alpha male by just being obnoxiously “superior” to others.
John Peanutbutter who tells you to be an alpha male but with science in your brain
fresh and fit who tell you to be alpha males but by figuratively just shaming women
and on the opposite side you have nothing for a while and then you have destiny and hasan who try to make you debate like highschoolers.Is the world just full of grifters now?
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: yyyyeeeeeeessssssss
There are great people, the top Spot for me is healthy gamer gg.
F D is peak as well.
There are a lot of people, but non of them have the quick and simple solution that attracted lost boys and men.
The grift of giving some free advice that may or may not work, to get them hooked so you can sell bad advice that when it doesn’t work they say it didn’t because they didn’t believe enough or try enough and there is yet another book for them to buy which then locks these people into a spiral of buying only their advice…
Is such a long running and stupid grift for people to still be falling for this strongly.
We are right back around to people selling blank books for you the reader to fill out with the great plan that’s gonna work. But people feel directionless and scared of the future so idiots will seek comfort anywhere they can.
I’m usually up to date on the field of grifters. (understanding dipshits is a specialty of mine) but I’m not sure who john peanutbutter is supposed to be. Can anyone translate?
I understand it to be Jordan b Peterson
Ok, that makes sense. Like that one guy, blunderfunk cumberbunk.
Engelbert Humperdink?
They need to look to Jesus as their rolemodel instead
He’s so smart and articulate! Yeah, if you ate lead paint chips as a kid, or decided that huffing glue as a past time was a great idea.
Why is it that the cringiest fucking weebs like this guy? Does the suit give him some sort of weird dominion over them? These losers should be case and fucking point as to why you need Critical Thinking classes in schools…and it should also fucking highlight why Republicans are desperately trying to make public schools systematically dumber. A generation of highly educated people is detrimental to the conservative ideology (unless your making literally millions of $$$).
A lack of visible positive role models is a big part of it. When nobody else wants to engage with isolated and directionless young white men, people like Peterson will fill the vacuum. Couple that with amoral algorithms of social media generating engagement at any cost, and they soon have an audience.
Ensuring everyone has opportunities and and a sense of inclusion would go a lot further than just trying to teach everyone to recognise false shepherds. That’s just treating the symptom and not the cause, and would likely end up with them falling prey to another wolf with a better sheepskin.
Be careful with that second sentence. Keep in mind that there’s an age everyone experiences, not just white men, where people feel isolated and unheard. Believing that it only applies to young white men is a slippery slope into the mindset that creates these whackjobs.
Keep in mind that there’s an age everyone experiences, not just white men, where people feel isolated and unheard. Believing that it only applies to young white men is a slippery slope into the mindset that creates these whackjobs.
OK, but young white men are Peterson’s target demographic and he doesn’t really appeal to anyone else (broadly). You’re correct that everyone experiences that feeling but it’s not really relevant to this conversation.
The person you replied to did not imply in any way that only young white men experience that feeling of isolation. Rather, the point was that they are the group most affected by Peterson’s rhetoric.
Oh, I don’t disagree. There’s many systemic failures that have to occur for this to happen. YouTube thankfully has gone through efforts to remove it’s radicalization issue, so hopefully we’ll start to see it slow down or peter out over the next decade or so. However, I’m worried that the damage is already done.
I think it’s partly they see a little bit of themselves in him, so it’s like a “I’m you but better so listen to me” thing. But it’s also because she focuses on the Canadian government, which is really easy to make fun of and ridicule policy wise as of late. So these men see him “owning” the Liberal Canadian government for their many bad policies and they idolize him.
Tell me one thing he says (other than his religious takes or takes on trans) that you disagree with. I am curious why people would be against his statements as his ‘clean your room’ style is very general
I also believe nobody knows what he teaches and likes to circlejerk against him
Tell me one thing he says (other than his religious takes or takes on trans) that you disagree with.
I mean, that’s like saying “tell me one thing Hitler says (other than racism and politics) that you disagree with”…
His “teachings” are completely entangled with religion and culturally conservative dogma. This aspect of his character isn’t really separable from his teachings or his actions.
To be honest, his actual “philosophy” is just a bunch of word salad that individuals can gleem meaning from when it suits them.
Except hitler is known for his politics and racism. The meme was about mens health and how he is a bad resource for that view. I think you can dissect that from his philosophy and religious teachings.
Except hitler is known for his politics and racism.
And Jordan Peterson isn’t famous for his anti-trans dogma, or crazy fusion of religion and “philosophy”?
The meme was about mens health and how he is a bad resource for that view.
And I am staying that his religious and anti-trans attitude is a key reason of why he is a bad resource for that view. His views of religion and trans people are a inseparable part of his world view.
Yeah JBP is famous outside of his mentor crowd for different reasons. Some people flock to him for guidance, and others look at his other takes and judge him as a whole. It would be akin to having a conversation about good leadership skills and bringing up Hitler as a good model for using effective communication skills for uniting his base regardless of the outcome. I am not talking about Hitlers history of racism or politics.
I just want you to acknowledge that many people dont come to JBP for his stance on religion or trans issues. They come for a fatherly role model. I want you to criticize that not his stance on whatever philosophical problem because they can be seperated. If you can show me an example where it needs to be together then that is acceptable.
I see what you’re saying “you can dig through this pile of shit (racism, homophobia, and other bigotry) and find a nugget of gold (basic ass advice on self help and leadership)” and that’s as true for JP as it is for Hitler.
I think what everyone else is saying is “WHY?!??” why are you fighting so hard to dig through the shit. There are many people handing out that gold with very little shit digging required.
When you fight so hard for the right to dig through that much shit to find small amounts of easily accessible gold, people are going to rightfully start to think it’s not just the gold you’re after.
Im losing confidence that you have anything to bring to the table other than dog whistle style messages. I am not trying to defend the guy on all moral positions, i am just looking for this one thing. Its either you know or you dont.
I just want you to acknowledge that many people dont come to JBP for his stance on religion or trans issues.
That’s kinda how propaganda works… Even if you don’t come for the trans and religion dogma, you will be exposed to it.
Hitler as a good model for using effective communication skills for uniting his base regardless of the outcome.
Lol, it’s the same model… Invent a boogie man, lie, cheat, steal, and hurl abuse at those who oppose you. Yes, it would be like bringing up hitlers “leadership skill”. But, then ignoring the reality of what that “leadership” really entailed.
show me an example where it needs to be together then that is acceptable.
You can’t separate the two because he does not separate them. His philosophy leads him to believe in, and justify his own dogmatic views.
This is not a “separate the art from the artist” as this person’s art is getting people to embody his own philosophy.
Thats not how propoganda works. Im asking you to formulate an opinion on one subject matter. I can talk about the bible on how it is the most important piece of literature of all time and not be indoctrinated.
You can take a quote of his, show me that it is both intended to bolster his dogmatic philosophy while also empowering young men. That would be an acceptable example. If you can show me that he does this I will give this to you.
Without writing a thesis and deepdiving into his rhetoric - He’s not a philosopher, yet often makes references to well known philosophical platitudes from people like Gödel in efforts to argue conservative and religious viewpoints. For example: Argument on Existence of God Notice how he takes a common sense observation, and then applies it to an idea. That’s okay, your supposed to do that. My issue with him is that he then makes another assumption, then another…then another. And soon, he’s making conclusions built upon a shaky bridge of assumptions that lead back to a small kernel of actual wisdom.
If your paying attention to him, it’s very similar to how conspiracy theories are created, you take a solid kernel of truth or seed of wisdom that you can use to anchor the idea…to someone that doesn’t know better, that’s all they need to believe everything else.
Jordan Peterson is not always wrong, I think he makes genuine points on some subjects when it’s based on his actual areas of expertise, but he’s sort of a smart sounding jack-of-all-trades when it comes to anything else. For example, he’s a psychologist…why did he come up with an all/mostly-meat diet? Because it worked in a niche case with his daughter? It’s entirely anecdotal, not researched, divergent from common sense dietary advice, and frankly dangerous.
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I said dont give a religious example as that is open to much criticism. I am talking in reference to his points on self-improvement and how everyone here believes they should be ignored. Please give an example on that.
I gave you an example of his argument style that I have issues with, not specifically an argument about religion that I disagree with. I noticed that a lot of his arguments try to use a strong basis on moral or objective reasoning and then provide flimsy but intellectually sounded deduction to stretch further and further towards his ultimate objective. I’ve given an example of it, and technically a second in regards to his promoted dietary practices. Do with them what you will. :)
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So your answer is “no i dont have any examples” then am I right?
Ugh, my bad for giving you the benefit of the doubt. I thought you were genuinely asking and not just looking for a gotcha. (also, for the record, I’m not the person you originally responded to)
Im not looking for a gotcha lmao, i asked something specific and i want a specific answer. Stop generalizing
Women wear make up ONLY to signal sexual arousal. Healthy women want kids (so do unhealthy women; healthy women can also want kids). “Sorry, not beautiful” about a woman. Telling people on Twitter to off themselves.
The dude is in trouble for calling himself a neuroscientist and evolutionary biologist ffs. I mean, do I need to go on? Or do you think it’s fair to say that his religious and trans arguments aren’t the only issues he’s currently facing removal of his licensure over?
This has nothing to do with empowering young men.
Saying that women only do things to serve or benefit men doesn’t empower young men? That is literally telling young men that women are subservient to them…
Who exactly is stealing the power away from these young men? And what exactly are they taking away?
Can you give us a example of how JP actually empowers men?
Saying that women only do things to serve or benefit men doesn’t empower young men
I have never heard JBP say this. I have heard him say that agreeable people tend to be stepped on and that women tend to be agreeable… but thats not the same thing.
Dont turn this on me. I asked if you could provide an example of how he isnt effective at empowering young men(which is the point of this meme). You cant reverse uno and ask me the same question
have never heard JBP say this.
I mean you asked for a quote and someone provided a quote. You can look up the quote and find articles about it.
It’s just one of the misogynistic lies he spews on the regular. I believe in the same interview he stated that high heels were invented to lengthen the legs of women to make them more attractive… In reality high heels were first worn by men to keep shit from getting in their shoes.
I have heard him say that agreeable people tend to be stepped on and that women tend to be agreeable… but thats not the same thing.
Lol, so much better… It’s your fault you are being stepped on, not the generations of oppression and systemic disenfranchisement. Does that apply to everyone? Is he saying that Africans were just to agreeable so we had to enslave them… Broken as logic.
asked if you could provide an example of how he isnt effective at empowering young men
Yes, I’m going to first prove God doesn’t exist, then I will work on proving the negative with JP … You can’t prove a negative my dude. If you are making the claim that he empowers young men, it’s up to you to provide the evidence that proves it.
If you are making the claim that he empowers young men, it’s up to you to provide the evidence that proves it.
Im just going to respond to this because im kinda over this. The claim was initially made by the meme. I am questioning this, yet you are here asking me for proof of the contrary.
This comment has nothing to do with your original comment, but if you need me to tie together how his misogyny hurts young men that follow him we can go over that
Show me an example of misogyny, please
Show me you can read my first comment, please.
That wasnt in respnse to what I said though. You just started spewing misogyny stuff
“The cure for that is enforced monogamy.”
About Alek Minassian, a man accused of killing six people after running them over with a van in Toronto: “He was angry at God because women were rejecting him. The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.”
Oh, some incel murdered 6 people, must of been a woman’s fault somehow…
Is defending a literal misogynist terror attack enough evidence for you?
Send link if you can
I hate it when people bitch about the left “not having gurus to help lost young people” or whatever when the right’s so-called gurus are worthless sacks of skin like Peterson. Also I’m here because I - in very emphatic terms - do not want a guru.
it’s really annoying because personal growth is not even remotely relevant to politics. The left can’t “make you a man” because that’s something you do on your own. It implies a specific set of ideas about maturity, relationships, and various other things which are your own problem. The right wants to fit you into the hierarchy, so they’ll make you a certain thing to fit. We don’t, so it’s your job to figure out if you want to be a man or a woman or something else, and what it means to reach that. We don’t give leftist dating advice because it doesn’t make sense, we’re not writing a script for you to follow. Just respect potential partners and maybe one will become a partner you respect. Whether you start a family or find someone isn’t our political project because we don’t want to make you pump out kids for the factories that obey authority.
because that’s something you do on your own
It may also be something best done with others, because isolated insulated alienated individuals tend to become reactionary too.
Although yes, it should be done as a group, and it would be better done with a group of leftists because they’re more likely to have a positive view of women, minority, work, mental health and so on, it’s just not something that needs to be done as a political project. Like, religious leftists should pray together, or leftists with children should share child care tips, but that doesn’t make it a leftist goal, y’know?
It doesn’t, and it doesn’t have to be a “pure” leftist goal for it to matter at an intersectional level. How good is a community if it’s made up of atomized individuals lacking in connection with each other? How much “pure” leftism is possible with a bunch of “I am the Main Character, everyone else is NPCs, fuck you got mine” contamination?
I don’t see your point. Yeah, that’s not great, but it’s not a political project and there’s not a way to provide specifically masculinity from a leftist perspective. I see a big part of leftist change in society to liberate people from the alienating idea that they’re supposed to grow up into anything in particular.
What you’re demanding isn’t possible by the very boundaries that you demand that it must fit in. If you’re stifling my case, the same limitations make yours basically impossible.
You’re saying it must be a “political project” in some rigid way but at the same time you want some sort of “make boys feel better about themselves” thing which if isolated and non-intersectional is not a political project goal.
“make boys feel better about themselves”
I don’t want something like that, I think inherently the goals of leftist liberation make people feel less pressure to correctly present a gender role, so the utility of a guru like JBP vanishes. You don’t need to learn to play your role, because you decide what it means to be you. So we don’t need to teach boys how to act, we’re by our actions creating an environment where that won’t be a problem. The interrim between current world and that world won’t be flawless, but that’s something best addressed by non-explicitly leftist groups. It’s not something “the party” or whatever needs to work on
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That’s precisely why the left will keep losing men. And as I see it, left is going to lose men faster as time goes on unless something changes.
People can’t figure out life on their own. That’s reality. Especially with the current state of economy where the young men are doing very poorly in droves. And then the left just tells them: go figure it out on your own. Well fuck.
Meanwhile, the right will say shit like: go work out, improve yourself, do this and that to make more money, and you will get your life together, you will own a home, you will get a wife, etc. You’re right, these advices aren’t even political. But they are real advices, which people like JBP gives. And for the majority of their main points, they are actually good messages, crazy ones aside. Sure, the political right isn’t actually gonna do shit for men, but they have real advices. Things people can follow and have hope. It’s surely more enticing than what the left preaches.
The rebuttal from the left is often absolutely terrible messages and say things like “just don’t rape women” or “just respect potential partners” which just drives people away further. These are not real advices. These only make sense if you view men already in a negative light. It’s not actionable advice if they’re not a horrible person already. Left demonizes men, like you just did, whether you realize it or not. If a man views themselves as a good person already and the message they get is “just respect potential partners” which they already do, and still clearly achieving nothing. You get two outcomes. At best: you helped nobody. At worst: they now think you think they’re horrible because the reward isn’t coming with the advised action. So one side says you’re horrible and the other side says you have a future. Who will they stick with? Seems obvious to me.
Imagine the gender flip of that message. “Just don’t be bitch.” How would that message be perceived by women?
Even Andrew Tate has objectively better actionable messages for the men than the left. He constantly says stuff like go to the gym and work out. Does that actually help in the goal of dating? Fuck yeah. Actual cause and reward. These are real advices for men.
You can’t expect people to write their own script. Vast majority clearly can’t. They need guidance. And left has none to give. Until that time comes, people like JBP and Andrew Tate will continue to sweep in the young male audience, especially in an era where fatherless boys are more bountiful than ever.
The gurus normal people trust have this pesky tendency to have advanced degrees and call themselves things like “doctors” and “therapists” as if either is better than being screamed at by a car salesman in a room full of sweaty divorces.
The problem is the sell outs. The vaccines cause autism guy, scientists who publish about global warming being fake, Peterson himself has multiple degrees. Unfortunately in this day and age you even have to vet people with qualifications to make sure they arnt the jack ass who disagrees with the remaining 99.99% of the scientific community.
Chopra has a PHD and is a doctor, he’ll never tell you that it’s in endocrinology and not Quantum Physics however…
Whatever your opinion on it is, the fact is that young guys are lost to right wing patriarchs. And the left doesn’t really want to outcompete the right for their attention, because the left knows they can’t outcompete the right on this without abandoning some highly treasured principles.
Yeah, the lifestyle coach is an inherently evil breed. Unhappy young people don’t need a talking head to tell them to buy the book and listen to the podcast, they need friends. Even just a discord where you can get relationship advice from people who have actually been in a healthy relationship is way more valuable.
The closest the Left has to a guru is the Spirit Science guy (He’s surprisingly progressive for someone who thinks jews are from space), and I still can’t recommend that in good concious unless you need a short cartoon to explain a supernatural concept. The show’s decent on Spirituality, it’s tying it to Science that causes the problems…
It’s almost like Religion and Science are entirely different concepts exploring different ideas, and shouldn’t be merged together into one unified force anymore than my keyboard and my dresser!
“Lifestyle coaches” are almost entirely facets of reactionary cryptofascist bullshit, and that sucks.
You need to find yourself, you try to let someone else find you for you and you’re inviting trouble.
I would have appreciated if the bottom right panel said “Hold my benzos” instead.
I just want to say that if you are/were a young man, and found some value in some of what this guy was saying to you…thats’s OK. Don’t feel bad, or embarrassed or mad at yourself or whatever. We are all learning all the time, and doubly so when we’re young. Never think that you can’t take what is useful and reject what isn’t. Fuck knows there is plenty to reject about what this dude says!
Something something broken clocks.
“Clean your room, bucko” is advice many people’s moms tried to give them but too many of them had to hear it from a cryptofascist crank LARPing as the world’s father figure before they listened to it.
I get it. I’m actually thinking of a particular friend of mine. He lost his father at 14, and his mom isn’t the greatest parent. He told me Peterson was kind of exactly what he needed at a tough time in his life. Fortunately, he’s always been a smart kid, and saw through the toxic shit. Five years later and he’s a queer communist! I guess I’m just saying that if you really needed to hear “clean your room” from a father figure, and it helped you… don’t feel bad that Peterson was the guy who filled that role at the time. Obviously I’m speaking to people who have grown to see him differently now.
I don’t know if it’s a new trend or something, but lots of people have something interesting to say, and say lots of hogwash besides and everyone gobbles it all up including the hogwash. You don’t have to go all in when reading someone’s work. For example, I read Freud and it was quite interesting. Most of it was horseshit (although historically interesting), but he still made the point that we don’t do all that we do consciously , which was hugely important.
Ideas and memes (in the original sense) are there to be examined and weighed against one another, not followed blindly.
So Petersen (I’m not really sure who that is), why not, he might have some salient points, even though he seems to be a controversial figure, apparently rightly so.
