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Posts to non political community
Chooses the most controversial topic
It’s also currently the most popular comic posted so far in the community 😁
New front: file format by the name
JIFalready exists.That’s pronounced “yif”, actually.
Then how a
YIFfile would be pronounced?In Nordic languages (Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Finnish), ‘Y’ is always a vowel sound, similar to saying English “ee” (like in “week”) but with tightly rounded lips, often described as a “duck face” or a mix between “ee” and “oo”. It’s a high, front, rounded vowel (IPA: /y/ or /yː/), distinct from English ‘Y’ and varies slightly in length (short vs. long) depending on the following consonants.
Like in “Ymir”
GIF is an acronym first and foremost. Acronyms are invented by their creators who get to decide the pronunciation. No one is arguing that NASA, LASER, RADAR, MRSA, etc. are pronounced any differently because they don’t follow ‘English language rules’.
I knew someone with the initials A.S.S. They didn’t go by that, they went by Ace. They came up with that because their initials reminded them of it and they liked it better. Are you instead going to call them Ass because you know that’s what their initials spell, even though you know that isn’t the name they want to go by?
The pronunciation is devoid of the spelling with acronyms. It never matters, and is always decided by the creator. With GIF they chose the pronunciation for several reasons:
- it’s a pun meant to sell a product.
- products are easier to sell when they’re memorable. Back in the early days of computing you had to work hard to spread what you’d done over what someone else had done
- it’s fast, like jiffy
- they wanted to hitchhike off of the success of the peanut butter brand
Notably it’s not one person that is deciding this pronunciation, though Steve was the inventor, the entire CompuServe company agreed on the pronunciation. It was written in the manual, and even the creators of .png agreed with the pronunciation (https://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngintro.html)
Here is a picture from CompuServe’s magazine showing the correct pronunciation (it’s a product, it has a correct pronunciation) (you can read the entire article here )
Another fun fact
CompuServe used to distribute a graphics display program called CompuShow. In the documentation for version 8.33 in the FAQ section, it states:
The GIF (Graphics Interchange Format), pronounced “JIF”, was designed by CompuServe and the official specification released in June of 1987.
The image below is an example GIF that came with CompuShow:
It is a picture of CompuShow’s author, Bob Berry. He used some of the then-new features of the GIF89 format to display text on top of graphics. One of the lines he entered in the text states:
Oh, incidentally, it’s pronounced “JIF”
You can’t see this text within a web browser, but if you save this image and load it up in GIF Construction Set or another animated GIF89 editor, you can see the comment for yourself. Drag and View also displays this text, but kind of screwed up. For further proof from Bob Berry, check this out.
Steven O’Neill writes: Another way to get the JIF line out of Bob Berry using standard Unix tools:
~>curl https://www.olsenhome.com/gif/BOB_89A.GIF | strings | grep JIF % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time % Time Current Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed 100 37062 100 37062 0 0 69595 0 --:--:-- --:--:-- --:--:-- 166k |s,Oh, incidentally, it'spronounced "JIF"
fun quote about the subject:
Anyone who pronounces “GIF” with a hard G simply does not understand computer programmers (and any programmers who still insist on this silly pronunciation are simply unfit). No decent coder would pass up an opportunity to inflict a horrid pun on the world. And seeing as peanut butter is one of the principle three programmer foods (the other two being Pepsi and nacho cheese Doritos), the reference is immediately obvious.
You don’t understand how language works. Someone can indeed come up with an acronym and insist that there is a correct pronunciation. But we, the masses, can correctly decide that it’s stupid and use a better one.
And absolutely none of that applies to proper nouns, especially not completely made up ones. The public doesn’t get to decide how to pronounce my name, I do. Same for any proper noun.
Of course you do get to have a preference for how people should pronounce your name, because you are a person who can have a preference. They way you just apply that to all proper nouns is wrong, though. An acronym is not a person. It has no preference to how it wants to be pronounced. We, collectively, can absolutely decide that the way it once was intended to be pronounced is utterly dumb and pronounce it in a much saner way.
English doesn’t have rules, it has exceptions, and there are absolutely no rules for acronyms besides needing to be said as a word, so no there is no “saner way” than the actual name.
Here’s the thing though, you can pronounce it however you like, you’ll just be wrong.
The public decides. That’s how language works. It’s Gif with a hard G.
You’re assuming “the public” has reached a uniform consensus, which it certainly hasn’t.
Your argument is like a politician saying “people love me, they say I’m the best.” It’s an appeal to an abstract entity as a placeholder for your own opinion.
Even if you had data backing up your claim, that would still be an appeal to popularity, which is a logical fallacy.
You’re assuming “the public” has reached a uniform consensus, which it certainly hasn’t.
I have literally never heard someone say “jif” outside of an online post claiming people do.
I’ve always pronounced it jif. Just because you’re ignorant of the other side doesn’t mean your side is right
I didn’t say it does. Language is not prescriptive. I’m just wondering if this is as much a scam as Flat Earth. Insofar that I doubt the sincerity of people saying that, but I realise that might just be because I’m biased for some reason.
I just have never heard anyone saying “jif” and hearing it makes me think of a semi-computer-illiterate boomer who’s reading a file-ending aloud to their nephew while never having heard anyone say it out loud.
Again, I realise that’s probably not true, but it’s the mental image I get.
That’s funny, because pronouncing it with a hard g sounds just as silly to me.
And it’s nothing like flat earth. The earth’s shape is a matter of science and empiricism; there’s a wealth of evidence confirming that it’s spherical, and nothing credible suggests otherwise. Flat earther arguments are completely disingenuous; it even started as irony and anyone who believed it has serious defects. Even Aristotle knew the earth was round by the way a ship’s mast appears on the horizon before the hull.
Pronunciation isn’t a matter of empiricism. All language is a social construct. It wouldn’t make sense for Brits and americans to argue over who pronounces a word the “correct” way. Even in america, people won’t agree on words like “pecan” or “crayon.”
But for some reason anyone who pronounces gif with a hard g has this really arrogant attitude towards anyone who pronounces it with a soft g. It’s really weird.
If people actually read the comments they reply to ffs
Also the difference you’re trying to explain is called prescriptivism vs descriptivism
😂
assuming
whatever you need to tell yourself Just take the L (which you probably pronounce as Û) and go back to bed.
Dictionaries are correct, you’re not. 💪😘
Not for proper nouns they don’t. Just because you pronounce my name taylor doesn’t mean you’re right. I get to decide how to pronounce my name, not you.
Both pronunciations are acceptable because different people pronounce it different ways. That’s how language works. Eventually one or the other pronunciation may win out as so few people pronounce it any other way. We’re not anywhere near that point yet.
We’re not anywhere near that point yet.
Never have I ever heard anyone saying “jif” outside of a humouristic clip / antagonistic post online.
So close.
99.9999…% = 100 % so yeah. You also need to take the L :)
Lif? Ew, no.
This is all very well thought out and I think for the most part is true that what the original creator wanted should be respected.
2 counter points however…
-
Sometimes the creator comes up with a stupid name.
-
Sometimes cultural influence is simply more powerful than the Creator’s original intent. Exhibit A: everyone calls it “The Bean” and not “Cloud Gate” as named by the artist. Not an acronym, but I still think cultural influence should be considered.
Yeah, “human spider” wouldn’t have caught up well either.
-
Give it a few days and people will be pronouncing it yod.
I’m sorry but this is hilarious, and I’m in the “jif” crowd…
So, no jifts from above?
That’s disingenuous, because the letter g has multiple pronunciations. Good job, you identified one word that begins with a hard g. All I have to do to counter that argument is identify a word that begins with a soft g: general.
So, “jod” is hilarious, but “jift” is disingenuous?
I don’t get it, but I guess it’s fine.
Also, I was trying to go by the fact that “gift” has the same 2 letters after the ‘g’ as “gif”, which tends to be an often stated thing when people try to make a semblance of logic[1], explaining why something is pronounced the way it is, in English (and then also used in comedies, where all of that logic fails due to exceptions everywhere).
For pronunciation in the English language, I consider that there is often not a logic behind it, but a history. And from that POV, “jif” would be the correct one (∵ the creators). But I still pronounce it “gif”, because:
- it’s an acronym, so I consider the pronunciation to not be very important and it is better to go with what clicks in my mind faster [2]
- I first read
.gifin a file name and there was noone to tell me how it was pronounced. I went with G.I.F. until I felt like calling it “gif” with the logic of “gift”. Then again, I heard quite a few people call it “gif” and it set in.
‘Ginger’ and ‘ginko’ both start with ‘gin’ yet the former is a soft g and the latter a hard g. Just because it starts the same doesn’t mean the pronuncuation needs to be.
“jod” was clearly meant to be humorous, and the delivery was perfect. “Jift” was either an attempt at a real argument, or else it was piggybacking on the previous joke making it unoriginal in addition to poorly delivered.
Also, how do you pronounce giraffe?
giraffe of course :P
You are very self-important if you automatically assume English is God’s language
I assume there is no god. And English is my third language.
seeing as peanut butter is one of the principle three programmer foods … the reference is immediately obvious.
Not to this programmer, it isn’t. I have no idea what they’re referencing.
Jif is an Amerifat brand of peanutbutter which sometimes contain salmonella.
MRSA
In the UK we call that M-R-S-A (and we’ve had enough well publicised outbreaks in hospitals for people to become familiar with the term). I remember watching House when I was younger and being confused about what the fuck “mercer” was.
are simply unfit
are simply not America.
one of the principle three programmer foods
American consumer foods
I think I grew up with jif but swapped to gif, never noticed or wondered why until now.
Ghsot of Tolkien: It’s pronounced Jandalf
Ja Ja Ja
There is no GIF war. Just those of us who were there when it was new and those that came after who don’t know how to pronounce it as intended.
Non political? Who has the power to define these acronyms? Who appointed her the Acronym Tzar?
Does MPEG have too much power? Licensing fees are fine?
😉
Everyone knows that if someone wants us to pronounce gif as jif, then jpeg is gaypeg. Thems the rules.
I think its time to rename hard Gs as Js because having two letters with the same purpose makes no sense, especially when one has an alternative.
So now we have Jiraffe instead of giraffe, and Jeorge instead of George. We can correct all of this mess by fixing the alphabet!
I’m going to go further and say “ph” should always be pronounced [Φ]
F-eye-otograf-eye?
It’s funnier with the Greek letter.
Also, the vid you linked says “labial to labial” but as a American English speaker, I have never two-lipped an F sound. Top lip is on my teeth…
That’s my point. “F” should be labiodental, “ph” should be bilabial. It’s not the “accepted” way, that phoneme doesn’t really exist in English, but it should.
Interesting. Can you record yourself saying “photograph” with two bilabial [Φ]s?
Not really keen on sharing my voice online. It sounds almost identical, just a little softer. You can try it yourself: wherever there’s a “ph”, put your lips together as if it were a “p”, then separate them the tiniest bit and push air through like an “f”.
Kinda like you’re blowing off soup, but without pursing your lips. I think it’s basically like the embouchure for a single reed woodwind.
the voiced bilabial fricative is /m/
how do you make an /f/ sound- voiced or not - with your lips closed?
edit: nvm, I watched the video, it’s for non-english speakers and doesn’t really work without releasing into a vowel.
For some reason, very few people seem to care about this.
An even though I do care, I don’t do so enough to try and undo my bad pronunciation.
As a defender of the word-origin pronunciation approach, I can actually get behind this.
Arguably, it’s not the same as P doesn’t take on the F sound unless H is also there; G can have a soft pronunciation all on its own. There’s no inherent illogic in the acronym, on its own.
People are going to pronounce things as they want to pronounce things, in the end, but (for the creator of the comic) to argue that GIF and JPEG (in this particular scenario) to be equivalent is of shallow consistency (but maybe that’s because the general counterargument I hear most often is something along the lines of, “That’s not the sound that G makes”).
I love the “that’s not the sound G makes” crowd that completely ignore how they pronounce the letter G in that very sentence
Das ist nicht der Laut, für den das „G“ steht.
I just realized this sounds like a slur.
Gaypeg
(No, this isn’t meant to be homophobia)
Helen has a point. I think I’m going to pronounce it that way now.
Tbh that I’d accept
My left eye is twitching after quickly reading this once, and again more closely.
Oh no you don’t!
Shut it down!
![[SMBC] JPEG](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/2f500de2-cd40-4b23-ba8d-96b95aa34ec2.png){kind=link}