Grew up in a cult that refuses to do any military (JW), so at least one benefit I guess in that I was never brought up to venerate the military, or even any living person.
For whatever their faults are, I have always liked that JWs refuse military service. I think they were some of the smaller groups that the Nazis persecuted in WW2, so they have a record of sacrificing themselves for a good principle.
Edits: correct some grammar
Yeah, they definitely make sure we know that being raised in it. Had a purple triangle mark to denote them and other pacifistic religions. They also were some of the earliest arrested due to their refusal to do the Hitler salute, which they also refuse nowadays to salute anyth*or say any allegiance pledges. While their reasons are religious based, I still refuse to do those too.
Huh, yeah that purple triangle. I remember that now. I went to the Holocaust museum in DC a long time ago and everyone in our group was given a passport-looking dossier of a victim. Most were Jews, some Roma, and mine was a JW woman.
Yes and no. American military personnel absolutely murdered innocent civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Panama, Vietnam, Korea, Germany, Italy, Japan, …
But not every one, not every day, not multiple times a day.
I know this sounds like “not all X are Y,” and to some extent sure, but some mechanic or cook or logistics nerd who never touched a trigger after Basic isn’t a murderer like the shit bag who killed Good or Pretti or the others is.
But they still supported the institution no? Hitler’s cook can make the same claim
Sure but by this logic every person who has paid taxes to the US, or imported things from the US, is culpable to a degree in war crimes. Is it kind of true? Yes. Is it a useful point? Not really, beyond pointing out the boundless capability of capital to abstract and distance its effects.
Your argument is “everyone is a sinner”, what i am saying is being a hilter’s cook or a deployed us army cook both are both conscious decision. A large chunk of taxes goes to building roads + other services. What is largely the effect of being deployed US army cook?
Can’t believe i have to explain all this, i thought most people would be able to understand this without explanation
Is it a conscious decision if it’s the only employment you can secure? The system we live under is designed precisely to coerce people into work that they otherwise wouldn’t do under threat of starvation. There’s a reason army recruiters go to poor schools.
Any cog in a looking machine is a killer, even if it isn’t a bullet.
And neither were drafted.
Why go so far? Hitler’s only confirmed kill in WWII was Hitler, great guy by their logic. Or not so great because he shot the great pacifist leader Hitler.
i think the “countless civilians every day” was more meant to be a reference to the total deaths per day by the hands of the american forces, not every single soldier individually. poorly worded, but it is a tweet, so thats kind of expected.
“The Universal Soldier,” all about a soldier’s responsibility in the continuation of war, is one of my favorite protest songs from the 60s (though I am more familiar with Donovan’s version).
Maybe we can add some verses to this one?
… And he’s fighting for the fascists…
The Universal Soldier
Buffy Sainte-Marie
He’s five feet two and he’s six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17
He’s been a soldier for a thousand yearsHe’s a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn’t kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for youAnd he’s fighting for Canada,
he’s fighting for France,
he’s fighting for the USA,
and he’s fighting for the Russians
and he’s fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we’ll put an end to war this wayAnd he’s fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it’s for the peace of all
He’s the one who must decide
who’s to live and who’s to die
and he never sees the writing on the wallsBut without him how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He’s the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can’t go onHe’s the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can’t you see
this is not the way we put an end to war.One person’s hero is another person’s war criminal
Nice to finally see other Americans waking the fuck up and realizing that this is what we’ve been doing to the rest of the world since the fucking inception.
I’ve been shouting it from the rooftops since I was young but boomers and gen x always wagged their finger at me “Don’t talk about that…”
shaq asleep meme American tax dollars funding the slaughter and maiming of hundrends of thousands of civilians in gaza and 3rd world countries
shaq awake meme American tax dollars killing 1 american
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or even just… what cops in the U.S. do to any minority.
Had a co-worker today try to be like “extra-legal executions just aren’t American” and I was like “welllll we sure seem to love doing them, especially against anyone with a skin color other than white.” Topic changed pretty quickly after that.
Or detention centers, prison and jail conditions have been absolutely disgusting in the US since forever.
I agree, the detention centers are abhorrent, but prison rape has been used as a fucking joke since I’ve been alive, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. None of the jerk off politicians calling out these camps has done a fucking thing about the same shitty conditions that persist in their own districts to this very day.
detention centers, prison and jail
Private ones are a gold mine with the government handing people over as slaves.
I’ve got a folder on my computer documenting countless extra-legal executions by American law enforcement I could find. Videos, articles, documentaries, the whole shebang. Anyone shocked by this and saying it can’t happen here is being wilfully ignorant at this point.
If OP thinks those conversations haven’t been had, they are living in blissful ignorance.
I think the target audience for that tweet are the Obama worshipping, white, upper middle class, suburban Democrats. This country has done a lot of fucked up shit under Reagan, Clinton, W, Obama, Trump, Biden, and again now Trump. I’m not sure about HW Bush, but he use to head the CIA so…
The audience is really anyone who continues to feel even a scintilla of patriotism for this shithole.
Don’t confused patriotism with nationalism. Nationalists are rooting for ICE and Trump and all of those asshats. Nicole Good and Alex Pretti, and the many others out there still, are all Patriots.
Edit: I misspelled Alex Pretti’s name. My sincerest apologies.
As someone who knows the history of this country patriotism is barely distinguishable from nationalism.
Nationalism is the ideology that a certain people should have a state for themselfes.
Patriotism is the love for one’s state, but that state may have one or more people in it.
Which is why it doesn’t make sense to me, since I hate states in general and the United States specifically.
Right I see. In case you happen to be interested, Hannah Arendt suggested a system of federated councils which I find interesting. I’m not an expert on it, but there are some essays about it like this.
Thanks!
Fundamentally there are two kinds of nationalism: civic and romantic. Civic nationalism is about people adhering to a society’s set of laws and values. Romantic nationalism, also known as blood and soil nationalism, incorporates those concepts of birthright and bloodlines as important to one’s status in a nation.
The United States was a major pioneer and proponent of the civic kind, defying the traditional romantic nationalism that grew out of Europe. Despite our historical misgivings it’s an important difference.
Pure fantasy.
I don’t even like society’s laws and values, though.
So leave.
“Have you tried just not being a mutant?”
Go where? It’s not like it was when Ellis Island was running. Anybody who immigrated through there would be an illegal immigrant today. Any Americans today whose parents or grandparents went through there are anchor babies who should be deported alongside the rest of their family under the current regime’s stance on immigration.
And it’s not any easier today to immigrate elsewhere. Unless you’re rich or have a degree that makes you a valuable commodity, most countries want nothing to do with you.
I would but there’s nowhere without a country to go to
You must become an astronaut. That’s all that left when you start thinkin’ I gotta get the hell out of here. Just need to create your own world with its own rules.
That’s the plan: become an astronaut, hollow out an asteroid with sunlight, and build an O’Neill cylinder inside.
It is a meaningless distinction.
Patriotism is defined as “love of country”, yes, but also “devotion to the welfare of one’s compatriots”. I personally believe there is nothing more patriotic than doing everything possible to root out a corrupt and harmful government.
I actually think the USA is a beautiful place and I want to protect it from those who would destroy it. The word you’re thinking of is jingoism, which is honestly a serious problem here
So patriotism is just mutual aid + nationalism.
Why not just skip the last step? After all, the things I like about America would exist even if the nation doesn’t.
I think they’re talking about national socialism.
Ok, so if someone is not American, you don’t care about their welfare?
If no, thats internationalism, the opposite of patriotism, if yes, you see why we have trouble distinguishing yall from fascists, right?
I never said that? The difference is as an American citizen I actually have some say in the welfare of Americans but by no means mistake me for a nationalist. I think you may need to touch up on the difference between patriotism and nationalism
Patriotism is just nationalism for people who haven’t grappled with the reality of patriotism. The core is still juxtaposing human worth and real estate.
I see what you’re getting at, and perhaps my definition of patriotism is more wistful than the reality of it, but I’ve always thought of patriotism as similar to family. You’re more devoted to them because you are closer to them and there’s a certain want to preserve that alongside the places where it happened, y’know? And just like family, sometimes you have to override that devotion when the relationship becomes too toxic to maintain.
I feel like that’s where I’m at with the US. I’ve always been a naturalist at heart and I adore the landscapes of the country in particular, but it’s like a toxic parent. I try my best to pursue reform but I’m nearing a point where I’ll just have to leave and cut my losses. But it is hard because I legitimately do love this country, just…not the government or the people who run it.
The problem ain’t just the Trump administration, it’s systemic and I wish more people here understood that. I just think it would be better for the whole world if the US could get its shit together instead of every person with a moral compass abandoning it to its inevitable doom and the subsequent suffering of everyone too screwed by the system to leave.
I care about the welfare of every living breathing human, but tbh I think fixing the US (however that’s done) would benefit a hell of a lot of people in a whole lot of places. This country’s global military presence is so pervasive and damaging, it’d be nice to put a stop to it.
If the want to truly fix this place makes me not patriotic, so be it, but I’ve always seen that as the definition of patriotic. Maybe I’m just naive tho
Worshipping Obama?
I seen you’ve made the common logical error of assuming the democrats worship their leaders. That’s something left wing and right wing extremists do in equal parts but everyone in between, is absolutely not worshipping any poltical leaders.
He was popular and his excellent oratory skills induced people that liked him to like him more personally
Just have to look at the country’s history. This is business as usual, it’s just now affecting the moderates.
You are talking about people who got lied to all their lives when they where kids.
There’s only so far one can claim ignorance as an excuse. I blame it on a mentality in the USA of people having such bad experience in public education that they “don’t want to learn no more.” The desire to question and expand one’s knowledge was ground away. As well it was easier to live in ignorance before the internet. Now it feels more of a choice.
These days? Sure. But back then it was a much different country. And a lot of solders came back as liberals, but according to lemmy they deserve to die anyway
They we’re not that stupid when they left. They chose team murder willingly, that’s not something you can just shed like so.
It’s the only way to have any kind of social mobility in the US. Do you realize how many lbgtq and minorities end up joining? This shit isn’t simple.
And that on top of all the lies and brainwashing
Ah, so murder is okay as long as you’re part of certain groups? Or is just being poor enough? Lower middle-class? Or is it a point system where you get enough and are excused so LGBT middle-class are still good people but a middle class straight man is a murderous monster?
Not all of lemmy does, but there’s some out spoken people I’ve seen I disagree with.
Most the people posting here sure seem to be.
Yes, the target audience is definitely not the actual fascists who are supporting the brownshirts and their actions.
All the way back to Washington.
Sooo… the vast majority of Democrat voters? I know we’re all pretty big lefties here, but I’ve never met a single Democrat voter out in the real world who didn’t think Obama was the perfect president who did absolutely nothing wrong. My father in law - who has a degree in political science - keeps a photo of Obama in his wallet at all times along with pictures of his family members.
Sure, plenty of people have started to come to the realization that our soldiers are not heroically staving off evil abroad, but they’re still a tiny fraction of the American population as a whole.
Some people understand that the world is imperfect.
You described most of lemmy. Not a person here has met a solder or had to deal with not having health care or not having any options of social mobility.
They want us to fight a revolution without anyone who can fight. And apparently Pretti deserved to die for helping fascists
Thank you for the knowledge. I wasn’t aware this concept existed, but it explains a lot.
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It works the same way with demographics as well.
Colonize a place and eventually you make allowances and permit some sort of “very strict” immigration from the colonized places. “The Goods Ones” and a few politicians that carrier water for you. But once you’ve broken the seal, it’s a slippery slope. Not too long after that you have “natives” who have squandered or never even had generational wealth that was the proceeds of colonialism seeing how they’ve been matched or out-classes by another group, and start to feel loss aversion.
Also works with foreign wars, as they require collaboration with a side in that war. Suddenly you have translators and local staff and spies and politicians and sudden spouses of soldiers, all legitimately asking for a taste of what they and their family suffered for (often quite a bit more than the foreign fighters, who sat in a tent directing things).
My cousin was aNavy F16 pilot who got a medal for dropping the most bombs on Syria. I casually asked him what it felt like to be responsible for so much death and broken families and he looked at me like his brain was shorting out.
Not to take away from your story, but the USN flies F18s and F35s, the F16s are all USAF.
It’s a very, very common mistake, especially with the “teen” fighters. The fact that movies and TV often get it wrong by inserting a model of one aircraft and claiming it’s another doesn’t help.
The phrase “you can tell that’s not an F-18 because it’s shaped exactly like an F-16” has been said more than once at my house.
Some people can separate pushing a button from pulling a trigger and feeling recoil.
we call them sociopaths
Homeboy chooses not to think about it or what he’s done, I don’t think Id like your cousin simply for that alone.
No, I yelled about what we did in Iraq too. A lot of us did. Listen to Ashes of the Wake by Lamb of God.
Unfortunately, you alone are not “most Americans”.
The 2008 election was most Americans and while it wasn’t solely about Iraq war it was resoundingly unpopular
For every person against their terrorists leaving the country, 1000 thanked them for their service and gave them a free haircut.
Fascism is colonialism turned inward
Imperial boomerang.
I don’t have one of those. I have an ex-marine friend, who I chastised when he originally signed up I remember I joked “If you die in combat I’m going to kill you.” because he was basically my best friend at the time. He came from an extremely poor family.
He ended up (unwillingly) being assigned to being a MP, and ended up never shooting or bombing a soul. He was just agonizingly bored for hours and hours (He hoped for bar fights to break out just to fill the time). Hes now a union rep for a private security company and he hates all of his co-workers because he tells me they’re almost all [redacted] racist assholes (hes half black).
Soldiers have way more trigger discipline than the gravy seals.
The guy who shot Renee Good was a soldier…
It’s the system that produces a restricted rules of engagement and a general fear of punishment if you do something wildly out of line and a strong Management that induces discipline and restraint. If you take one crazy guy out of that system and then hand him a gun and tell him that he can do whatever he wants with full immunity then you don’t get restraint.
There are plenty of shit bags in the service. There are plenty of fantastic people too. The military is a great representation of all proletariats.
So what? The same could be said about ICE. The quality of individuals doesn’t mean anything when the institution as a whole is so rotten and evil
The US military has murdered orders of magnitude more unarmed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan than ICE ever conceivably will in the US
So what?
My point is, you can draw a direct through-line between Iraq/Afghanistan and what is happening now domestically. You can’t really separate the two. Thus there’s no point in drawing a distinction between a soldier and a “gravy seal”. That’s just cope; the military is not coming to save us
Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. There are lots of problems with the military, and there are also clear use of force guidelines. I’m not saying those are never violated, but they at least have them and more training.
Jonathan Ross was a soldier before he joined ICE.
Some of the best people I’ve ever met were Servicemembers… All of the worst people too. I’ve met some losers but some of the most high key bad people I’ve met were Servicemenbers…
Do you think its more likely that American soldiers have fantastic moral character and discipline or that American soldiers are not punished when they make mistakes?
Did you mean are punished?
I’m saying that an absence of records of punishing Americans for war crimes does not mean they don’t commit war crimes. I think its more likely that they aren’t punished at all, and if some are, its not reported.
