I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldn’t support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And “stopping trump” is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you don’t like the genocide supporters and you shouldn’t be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
That you’re fixated on convincing millions to swallow their principles and vote Biden to "Stop Trump"TM shows that you clearly haven’t understand my points or haven’t actually pondered on them rationally:
When a single man refuses to shift his position to “Stop Trump” and demands that to achive that goal millions of people shift their positions instead, that’s what’s very unfair - it’s saying that “my will is more important than the will of millions”.
That’s the kind of shit you expect in Absolutist Dictatorships or Monarchies with rulers who believe their rule is by Divine Mandate (hence they know better than everybody else), not from a President who supposedly represents his voters.
He can’t even claim that his position represents a majority of his votes because polls show most Democract are against the actions of Israel in Gaza - in this he’s actually going against the desires of most of those who elected him in the expectation that a sufficiently large fraction of them don’t care enough on this subject to change their votes or are forced by circumstance (what you and others who think like you are pushing) to vote for him when they don’t want him as President.
That’s not Democracy, it’s Petty Dictatorship and it’s certainly not “very unfair” to point out when elected representatives are acting like they’re dictators.
this is some real crybaby shit. let us know when you’re ready to face reality and recognize that the way you think it should be is rarely the way it actually is.
It’s also possible to look at this situation and see you as the one who is fixated. Just explain simply what you think happens in November when you refuse to participate in the (albeit shitty) democratic process. We’ll wait.
If that version of the future includes some accelerationist fantasy where things get so bad here – for people of color, LGBTQ, lower and middle class, human rights, wage gap, regulatory capture, &c&c – that we all have some great awakening and there is a violent uprising… Then I’m sorry to tell you that you’re a terrorist.
People here aren’t arguing for you to like Biden; most of us don’t either. We’re asking for you to live in reality.
Being “very unfair” to expect that the President represents those who elected him by changing his position to match that of those who elected him is not just broken Democracy, it’s the full-on acceptance that the President of the United States of America shouldn’t even care to represent his voters (otherwise it would not be “very unfair” to demand him to change his position to align with that of his voters), which is the kind of shit from countries like Russia were the vote is pure theatre and citizens have no power.
I mean, it’s fair if “in my country the vote is not a real election of a representative of voters” is what you accept as reality, but that’s like saying in Russia that “well, Putin will do whatever he wants either way so people most vote for him”, which not really a moral argument to push on anybody who is unwilling to endorse by voting that rigged system with a meaningless vote.
Whilst that’s a perfectly valid choice for you fully accept that you don’t live in an actual Democracy, that doesn’t really give you the moral highground to convice others that they too must fully accept it.
What Biden is doing here isn’t great, no one is arguing that. If you replaced him with trump right now trump would be orders of magnitude worse. If trump gets back into the white house, our country, lives, and future will be orders of magnitude worse. That’s a fact. Our stupid ass first-past-the-post voting system means you have two choices, Biden, or worse-in-every-single-measurement-unless-youre-a-millionaire-and-you-likely-arent Trump. Choose wisely. Your future depends on it. It’s really not a hard choice.
Get politically active and push for change, but don’t help bat shit insane MAGA put a king into the white house by extending your apathy to voting day. Please.
It’s our duty to be the last line of defense to keep a rapist racketeering felony indicted man who believes he is above the law from leading our country again. That is much more important than our quibbles with Biden.
Didn’t answer the question. What happens in November/January?
I happen to agree with you, what we have is not an actual democracy. But the two options for change are working within the system, or tearing down the system. Apathy for the system brings no change. The single most misguided idea of your little apathy movement is believing that stamping your feet in frustration is actually DOING anything.
Why should this system of oligarchic control be maintained given the amount of suffering that exists in the United States compared to other Western countries?
The working class has a right to demand a replacement system.
Trump is not that replacement. But neither are the Democrats
True. Such a system shouldn’t be maintained, and we have the right to demand better. HOW is opting out of the democratic process going to do that? (Not rhetorical; please answer this)
Whether you like it or not, It WILL be maintained, at least in the near term. Change is slow. But Trump WILL be the replacement if your plan of apathy prevails. It really is that simple.
I’ve voted in every single election since turning 18 and have always voted Dem. So have many of my friends and family.
And yet here we are.
People don’t believe in our system because our system has produced terrible results. Especially when compared to countries that have produced consistently higher standards of living in our lifetimes like Norway or Denmark. Or even Germany.
What happens in November/January is that America will elect as President either a confirmed Sociopath with Fascist and Authoritarian tendencies or a confirmed Narcissist with Fascist and Authoritarian tendencies: America is getting screwed either way, the difference is in the speed of the screwing and whether you’re getting smooth talk or dirty talk with the screwing.
Tactically, this battle is lost and has been lost for months now. The vote now only has any power to push for change at a Strategic level: what your vote for or not now can influence, is whether in subsequent elections the Democrat Party will genuinelly fear defeat and hence field a presidential candidate who actually represents his electors or if they feel confident that “our guy is slightly less evil” propaganda always works to secure their Left flank (if it works even with a Democrat candidate who is openly and activelly a supporter of a far-right ideology committing Genocide, they are bound to conclude it always works) in which case they will move even more to the Right and field an almost-Trump candidate.
Keep voting for lesser evil no matter what and the Democrat Party will keep giving you increasingly evil options.
We ALREADY TRIED this tactic when we got lazy and apathetic about Hillary, and that’s what gave us Trump the first time around. If we had showed up like we meant it in the primaries, we could have had Bernie.
When we sit on our hands, the wolves lunge for our throats. It will take decades to undo the pillaging of another Trump presidency. Good luck surviving to the next election (assuming Trump permits one) if you’re gay, brown, happen to become pregnant, etc.
Actually the equivalent to that would be to, this time around, to not attend the primaries again, rather than to refrain from voting Biden.
You might have noticed that you didn’t even got any primaries and the DNC just decided that the left(ish) faction of the Democrats should not get a choice and will just have to vote for the slightly less far-right supporter of ultra-racist fascists commiting Genocide so as to stop the slightly more far-right supporter of ultra-racist fascists commiting Genocide.
Lefties didn’t sit on their hands: the election was already stollen from them months ago and the only option they have now is to either “go along with it” or “punish”.
Game Theory indicates in this kind of setup were one side decides how to divide the cake and the other side can either accept (i.e “going along with it” and getting what little the other side allocated for you whils they get the big bulk they allocated for themselves) or reject (i.e. “punish”, since reject means they both lose), “punish” is the only option that can convince the other side to act differently in the next round and “going along with it” is guaranteed to make them act in the exact same way or worse in subsequent rounds.
You’re not just voting for the President in this election, you’re also voting for how the DNC will behave in the next round and hence what options you will have in the next Presidential Election.
Imagine what happens if millions of people choose not to turn out for the second least popular president in a lifetime? Why are you pretending that’s our choice?
Biden can only loose about 3% of his electorate, assuming exactly the same turnout as 2020 and generalizing to the general vote count (electoral vote is much worse). How many people do you think he’s lost by supporting the most public and brazen genocide of our lifetime?
You’re expecting all 80million people to all agree to the same comprimise you’re proposing, and we’re trying to tell you that’s not gonna happen
Funny you think people actually have any options. It is fascist vs fascist with both representing private interests over public interests. It’s not democracy at all. It’s a sham like usual.
I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldn’t support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And “stopping trump” is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you don’t like the genocide supporters and you shouldn’t be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
That you’re fixated on convincing millions to swallow their principles and vote Biden to "Stop Trump"TM shows that you clearly haven’t understand my points or haven’t actually pondered on them rationally:
When a single man refuses to shift his position to “Stop Trump” and demands that to achive that goal millions of people shift their positions instead, that’s what’s very unfair - it’s saying that “my will is more important than the will of millions”.
That’s the kind of shit you expect in Absolutist Dictatorships or Monarchies with rulers who believe their rule is by Divine Mandate (hence they know better than everybody else), not from a President who supposedly represents his voters.
He can’t even claim that his position represents a majority of his votes because polls show most Democract are against the actions of Israel in Gaza - in this he’s actually going against the desires of most of those who elected him in the expectation that a sufficiently large fraction of them don’t care enough on this subject to change their votes or are forced by circumstance (what you and others who think like you are pushing) to vote for him when they don’t want him as President.
That’s not Democracy, it’s Petty Dictatorship and it’s certainly not “very unfair” to point out when elected representatives are acting like they’re dictators.
this is some real crybaby shit. let us know when you’re ready to face reality and recognize that the way you think it should be is rarely the way it actually is.
Then what is the point of living in a democracy?
It’s also possible to look at this situation and see you as the one who is fixated. Just explain simply what you think happens in November when you refuse to participate in the (albeit shitty) democratic process. We’ll wait.
If that version of the future includes some accelerationist fantasy where things get so bad here – for people of color, LGBTQ, lower and middle class, human rights, wage gap, regulatory capture, &c&c – that we all have some great awakening and there is a violent uprising… Then I’m sorry to tell you that you’re a terrorist.
People here aren’t arguing for you to like Biden; most of us don’t either. We’re asking for you to live in reality.
Being “very unfair” to expect that the President represents those who elected him by changing his position to match that of those who elected him is not just broken Democracy, it’s the full-on acceptance that the President of the United States of America shouldn’t even care to represent his voters (otherwise it would not be “very unfair” to demand him to change his position to align with that of his voters), which is the kind of shit from countries like Russia were the vote is pure theatre and citizens have no power.
I mean, it’s fair if “in my country the vote is not a real election of a representative of voters” is what you accept as reality, but that’s like saying in Russia that “well, Putin will do whatever he wants either way so people most vote for him”, which not really a moral argument to push on anybody who is unwilling to endorse by voting that rigged system with a meaningless vote.
Whilst that’s a perfectly valid choice for you fully accept that you don’t live in an actual Democracy, that doesn’t really give you the moral highground to convice others that they too must fully accept it.
What Biden is doing here isn’t great, no one is arguing that. If you replaced him with trump right now trump would be orders of magnitude worse. If trump gets back into the white house, our country, lives, and future will be orders of magnitude worse. That’s a fact. Our stupid ass first-past-the-post voting system means you have two choices, Biden, or worse-in-every-single-measurement-unless-youre-a-millionaire-and-you-likely-arent Trump. Choose wisely. Your future depends on it. It’s really not a hard choice.
Get politically active and push for change, but don’t help bat shit insane MAGA put a king into the white house by extending your apathy to voting day. Please.
It’s our duty to be the last line of defense to keep a rapist racketeering felony indicted man who believes he is above the law from leading our country again. That is much more important than our quibbles with Biden.
Genocide is not a quibble
I established that with Trump it would be worse regarding the genocide. The quibbles are the other things people are bitching about.
If the genocide is what you’re concerned with, understand it will be orders of magnitude worse with Trump. That’s all really that needs to be said.
So the choice is between a genocide, and a worse genocide
Wow, America really is the land of the free and the home of the brave. Makes you really glad to have been born in such a wonderful democracy.
Didn’t answer the question. What happens in November/January?
I happen to agree with you, what we have is not an actual democracy. But the two options for change are working within the system, or tearing down the system. Apathy for the system brings no change. The single most misguided idea of your little apathy movement is believing that stamping your feet in frustration is actually DOING anything.
Why should this system of oligarchic control be maintained given the amount of suffering that exists in the United States compared to other Western countries?
The working class has a right to demand a replacement system.
Trump is not that replacement. But neither are the Democrats
True. Such a system shouldn’t be maintained, and we have the right to demand better. HOW is opting out of the democratic process going to do that? (Not rhetorical; please answer this)
Whether you like it or not, It WILL be maintained, at least in the near term. Change is slow. But Trump WILL be the replacement if your plan of apathy prevails. It really is that simple.
I’ve voted in every single election since turning 18 and have always voted Dem. So have many of my friends and family.
And yet here we are.
People don’t believe in our system because our system has produced terrible results. Especially when compared to countries that have produced consistently higher standards of living in our lifetimes like Norway or Denmark. Or even Germany.
You didn’t answer my question. What. Does. Apathy. Do.
What happens in November/January is that America will elect as President either a confirmed Sociopath with Fascist and Authoritarian tendencies or a confirmed Narcissist with Fascist and Authoritarian tendencies: America is getting screwed either way, the difference is in the speed of the screwing and whether you’re getting smooth talk or dirty talk with the screwing.
Tactically, this battle is lost and has been lost for months now. The vote now only has any power to push for change at a Strategic level: what your vote for or not now can influence, is whether in subsequent elections the Democrat Party will genuinelly fear defeat and hence field a presidential candidate who actually represents his electors or if they feel confident that “our guy is slightly less evil” propaganda always works to secure their Left flank (if it works even with a Democrat candidate who is openly and activelly a supporter of a far-right ideology committing Genocide, they are bound to conclude it always works) in which case they will move even more to the Right and field an almost-Trump candidate.
Keep voting for lesser evil no matter what and the Democrat Party will keep giving you increasingly evil options.
We ALREADY TRIED this tactic when we got lazy and apathetic about Hillary, and that’s what gave us Trump the first time around. If we had showed up like we meant it in the primaries, we could have had Bernie.
When we sit on our hands, the wolves lunge for our throats. It will take decades to undo the pillaging of another Trump presidency. Good luck surviving to the next election (assuming Trump permits one) if you’re gay, brown, happen to become pregnant, etc.
Actually the equivalent to that would be to, this time around, to not attend the primaries again, rather than to refrain from voting Biden.
You might have noticed that you didn’t even got any primaries and the DNC just decided that the left(ish) faction of the Democrats should not get a choice and will just have to vote for the slightly less far-right supporter of ultra-racist fascists commiting Genocide so as to stop the slightly more far-right supporter of ultra-racist fascists commiting Genocide.
Lefties didn’t sit on their hands: the election was already stollen from them months ago and the only option they have now is to either “go along with it” or “punish”.
Game Theory indicates in this kind of setup were one side decides how to divide the cake and the other side can either accept (i.e “going along with it” and getting what little the other side allocated for you whils they get the big bulk they allocated for themselves) or reject (i.e. “punish”, since reject means they both lose), “punish” is the only option that can convince the other side to act differently in the next round and “going along with it” is guaranteed to make them act in the exact same way or worse in subsequent rounds.
You’re not just voting for the President in this election, you’re also voting for how the DNC will behave in the next round and hence what options you will have in the next Presidential Election.
Imagine what happens if millions of people choose not to turn out for the second least popular president in a lifetime? Why are you pretending that’s our choice?
Biden can only loose about 3% of his electorate, assuming exactly the same turnout as 2020 and generalizing to the general vote count (electoral vote is much worse). How many people do you think he’s lost by supporting the most public and brazen genocide of our lifetime?
You’re expecting all 80million people to all agree to the same comprimise you’re proposing, and we’re trying to tell you that’s not gonna happen
Funny you think people actually have any options. It is fascist vs fascist with both representing private interests over public interests. It’s not democracy at all. It’s a sham like usual.
Didn’t answer the question. What happens in November/January?