I mean, Trump is also defending genocide too though…
Trump being worse deosn’t mean we can’t criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren’t even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
We needed to get someone back in office who could potentially do something about the atrocities. Instead we elected someone who will double down. That wasn’t a good plan
This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
This guy won the popular vote, and he’s out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these “leaders” are. Fuck them both.
Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I’ll like it even less than I did last time, though.
You are absolutely not obligated to say who you will be voting for.
If anything you’ve undercut your ‘fuck them both’ by following it with ‘but of course I will be supporting THIS ONE SPECIFICALLY’.
Do what you want at the voting booth but don’t undercut your own message by announcing your hand.
Might I add, you will also undercut the concerted effort to supress DNC turn out. Just like every other election remember the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
Yes those are the rules of being a politician (gotem)
Why is it always the risk is suppressing VOTER behavior, and never a risk of intentionally suppressing the politician’s genocidal desire? If it’s a covert strategy to suppress voter turnout to raise the expectations of the voters, how does any protest ever effect change?
Me more than anyone. To this day I can’t create a reddit account. I just know, come November I want another shot of changing things peacefully. Do understand the power of the US military. Stopping Christo-fascism depends on stopping Trump from grabbing the wheel. If the DNC did their own Jan 6 before Trump was inaugurated I’d applauding it because I know, that was our last chance.
Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?
We’ve been down this road so many times and it’s always a kick in the pants when we get hung up on it again and again. To properly take a moral stance you need to gain momentum before the primaries. Biden has not been shy about his stance on Isreal and bibi has been chasing this car like a dog on crack.
Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?
Oh, absolutely.
We’re talking world stage. Trump wins, we will just learn what everyone else already knows.
Oh, I’m talking about the world stage too. The US remains popular in much of Subsaharan Africa and East Asia (minus China and NK, natch), and moderately popular in Asia outside of MENA, with mixed views in Latin America. Our popularity dropped in all but three countries during Trump’s term, if memory serves - Pakistan, Israel, and Russia.
you’re joking right
First things first.
Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
Until then, there is not much difference between “not voting bc genoside” / “grr biden genocide democrats” and https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/
I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.
Bibi doesn’t give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I’m fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.
If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
Yes?
Agreed. If the Bushes hadn’t fucked us up so much in the middle east already we’d have maybe at least one or two more options, but right-wing assholes like GDubz and Bibi ruin everything.
But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on.
So one of the other things that is very frustrating is always being told that we just need to wait until after the next election to criticize anything. Our election cycles never seem to end.
Yeah man life is really fuckin frustrating. Welcome to earf.
You absolutely should not be waiting until the next election cycle. You should be voicing your opinion, voting in off-cycle and local elections, and voting for the least harmful option in every election, including the presidential election. It’s a huge machine and voting once every 4 years for the pre-packaged candidate isn’t an effective strategy if you actually want things to change.
Vote for people that make things better in your community, city, county, state, and then think about federal elections. Displacing the trove of do-nothings or detrimental actors in the smaller elections will change sentiment in the parties and will change the candidates they put through in the primaries… but it will take years for that to happen.
Either that or revolution… but that’s going to be a whole lot worse for everyone for a few decades, best case scenario.
That’s the problem. Most of the far left idealists don’t give a shit between elections. This happens every cycle. And every cycle they never learn.
Citation please. The most politically active people I know are well to the left of me. The handful of tankies I know in real life are the most active.
Who’s their candidate? For anything?
Citation? Really? Most of social media is backed up. Go ahead and see how much the SJW’s were caring about Palestine in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2023.
You do know they have been in conflict since 1948, right? You all act like this shit is new. And it shows in the fact that NONE of you gave a shit about it until now.
That’s kind of how ‘self rule’ works. You’re supposed to pay attention to politics.
People not voting is how we got in this mess in the first place.
Why do you think the GOP’s final defense is always “both sides do it?”
TIL self rule is when you can’t criticize the government
TIL telling people to get involved in politics and to go out and vote is exactly the same as telling them to not criticize the government.
People won’t do those things unless they realize that Democratic neoliberal orthodoxy is also the enemy.
Criticizing Biden with the goal of awakening the people should be encouraged
You and me both. Reddit literally browser finger printed my device and banned me in 2023 because I wouldn’t stop raising the flag on Biden. Now here we are and I want to do the whole told you so shit but I know more is at stake here than any other election I’ve lived through.
Bull, to the fucking shit. Genocide isn’t just something you can fucking put off. Unless you don’t really care about the genocide. Seems you’re more upset at the optics. And let’s also mention that Biden is not any more angry at the genocide than you seem to be. All his moves are token and theater and even that was only bought with mass protests and plunging confidence numbers.
People are being genocided ‘TODAY’
Seems you’re more upset at the optics.
I’m more upset that in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world, and a bunch of opportunistic yahoos would happily ignore it to bitch about one of the most progressive presidents we’ve had in forty years about an entirely different country’s genocide whose policies by the by is supported by that same existential motherfucking threat he’s fighting! For goddamned fuck’s SAKE what the hell is wrong with you.
The ‘biden genicide’ crowd is absolutely performing the russian trolls’ jobs admirably. And seem to be proud of it.
in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world
Everyone agrees with this
Which is why Biden should immediately pivot on this issue and save the United States from fascism
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit.
It really fucking isn’t. At all. He recently went full genocide denier on Bibi’s behalf.
This is the reasonable take.
Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.
Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it…
Every time Bibi claims that the IDF is the most moral army in the world I roll my eyes.
Undermining the ICC is tradition for the USA. There’s plenty of people waiting in line to get US soldiers, officers and politicians denounced at the ICC the day they’re capable of prosecuting US citizens.
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-
But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.
But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.
The only reason you feel you have to pretend that it’s legitimate is because it’s true on face-value: democrats have chosen a losing position and are going to lose because of it. Rather than pledging fealty before we need to it’s far more important to work to get democrats to ammend their policy
Wishing people would ignore the issue and hold their nose isn’t a strategy to keep Trump out, it’s denial
A fact of living in a liberal democracy is that residents have the right to openly criticize the government
If that right is no longer exercisable then we are already lost
If Dems don’t like what voters are saying then they should change their policy. Very simple solution.
You certainly are busy responding to my every comment today. Enjoying my comment history?
And
A fact of living in a liberal democrat is that citizens absolutely DO have that right.
And other citizens have the right to call out the bad faith propagandists that aren’t here to criticize the government, but only to criticize ONE government official.
You see, we all are very aware of the silence from the “far left” propagandists that pretend to be here in good faith when it comes to criticism of the right and the factually proven worse treatment Palestine will receive under Trump.
But you don’t really care about that, do you?
Legitimately have no idea what this message is intended to communicate because it is poorly written.
However, I did not notice I replied to the same commenter more than once. I was only replying to people I thought were exceptionally irrational.
Your comments btw read like ideal versions of what the GOP would promulgate to dissuade voters from supporting Biden. So if you’re a shill, then good job; if you aren’t, then your communication skills are poor and you should try to be persuasive and likeable - both online and in real life
A right wing shill accusing me of being a shill. That’s rich. And I’m not here to be liked by people like you. Just to call them out for the ridiculous concept that not doing something will bring change- when not once in history has this ever been proven to work.
But keep up with the propaganda- it seems some people still believe you.
If you think any of my posts are right wing then you’re not sophisticated enough to be commenting, let alone voting
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities.
“Contrary to allegations against Israel made by the International Court of Justice, what’s happening is not genocide.” - Joe Biden.
Jesus fucking Christ man. Read for the topic, now for what you want it to mean…
No one was talking about Biden. We’re clearly talking about how the far left accuses anyone that is still voting as supporting genocide.
Goalposts can teleport, I see.
Their point is that Israel is committing genocide and Biden is abetting that genocide while also engaging in genocide denial.
Which is political suicide for the Democrats. He has seriously miscalculated this issue and needs to recalibrate immediately. There is no other option.
Trump is your option. Hope you’re ready to take that blame.
Why would any voter take the blame for Biden committing a genocide with our tax dollars?
Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.
They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don’t. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.
Democrats fall in love.
Republicans fall in line.
I think the die-hard Trump cultists are genuinely in love with him, though.
And yet Democratic leadership keeps operating under the assumption that they can order Democrats to fall in line.
That would work if voters are reasonable but they’re not, there’s been something every single time - and yes it’s always ‘but this time it’s serious’
Could you explain what you mean a bit more?
Every election there is a reason that the left candidate isn’t left enough for the purists - every single time.
Yes… I bet if they’d put up someone who’s actually on the left, it would be a different story. Like, I don’t love everything about Bernie (because he’s not as "left"as I’d like), but I would have gladly voted for him against Trump. Millions of young people would have gotten excited to go vote for him too.
Every election the Dems fight tooth and nail to stop actual progressives from being allowed into the general. They put up their centrists instead. So of course they aren’t “left” enough.
I have a question, seriously: why are we looking to the President - the Chief Executive Officer - to define our policy? Isn’t he supposed to only implement the policies that have been enacted by Congress? Despite how Rs tried to portray Obama, and how Trump would act if given half a chance, the role of President isn’t identical to that of King - just how much leeway does he even have here? When tRump tried to insert himself in the opposite manner way back in the day, we impeached him - the President can propose but not define policy, right?
On that note, he did try to halt funding to Israel. Republicans in Congress overruled him. Ofc the reality is far more complex than what I am portraying here, b/c while he must enact existing policies, again he also should propose new ones too… which he isn’t doing much of. But how could we even tell the difference between Biden attempting to “work within the (existing) system”, set forth by our behind-the-scenes overlords and Congress + Supreme Court (heavy sidenote: with its current make-up, that Trump put into place), vs. him not really caring that much about the issue at all? Or really, at the end of the day, is there even a functional difference between them?
I don’t know. I truly don’t know. All I know is that while Biden may not be as liberal as people would have hoped, tRump is actively anti-liberal. And those are our two choices. :-( If we want better, perhaps we need to put forth some effort to make it happen. Like step up and actually run for office - and then dodge all the literal death threats + attempts that would result from conservatives for doing so. Otherwise, we get whatever they offer to us - they meaning those who will actually act rather than simply talk. Which remember, Biden is one of them, and he even has already made it to the short-list of the only two candidates who matter, which isn’t nothing!
He also called the ICC warrant against Israeli leaders outrageous and is stonewalling every attempt by the UN to intervene against Israel.
I don’t think he gets a pass on this
Thanks, that’s helpful.:-)
He may still be trying to work the issue from the inside, but indeed there’s a line there, somewhere.
We still only get the two choices though:-(.
He may still be trying to work the issue from the inside
If he is then he’s completely ineffective
Biden has been deliberately bypassing Congress to send Israel weapons: https://lemmy.today/comment/8531642
He gets to balance the power of Congress. He can refuse to enforce their bullshit. But more importantly he’s the leader of the Democratic party. He has massive influence on the direction the party takes, and can put pressure on members who get out of line.
I think most people are done with people who try to “work within the system set forth by our behind the scenes over lords”… We want someone who’s going to call them on that crap constantly and fight against it with every move they make. Biden is clearly not doing that.
I actually got heavily involved with politics after Bernie. Including running for office in a very red district where I had no chance of winning (just happened to be where I was living). Turns out, the establishment would rather reject anyone left of them and lose to Republicans, than to move an inch to the left and anger their masters
He can refuse to enforce their bullshit.
Can he though? Well anyway, he definitely could do more, no question about that.
What bothers me is this entitled thinking, like “we deserve better candidates” - okay, yeah, obviously, but we won’t get those until we make them. AOC, Bernie, there actually are several who are good, but apparently for some (whatever) reason they aren’t “viable”? Hence why Biden is there, instead of one of them.
(And you even ran - damn that’s impressive! To be absolutely clear, I am not calling you one of these “entitled thinkers”, b/c you actually stood up and tried to DO SOMETHING about it, first-hand - kudos!)
Biden offers the good that can be done, rather than what should be - to use the Batman phrase, the politician that America needs, rather than the one it deserves… or whatever?
There is also that phrase, attributed to Otto von Bismarck, that “Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best.” Put another way, the whole thing is a matter of pragmatism, instead of idealism.
And in every other situation, Biden has been the pragmatist. Gas prices, unionization of railway workers, inflation, etc. So I wondered if he’s doing something similar here too, even if it looks like 10-D chess to us, and based on his other past successes (that the media refuses to highlight, b/c they are “boring”), I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
But my knowledge on this matter, especially lately, is shaky, so I could definitely be wrong there - perhaps this issue truly is the dividing line. I need to stop talking about that until I read up on the matter some more.
Though one thing that won’t ever change is that in the next upcoming election, we still only get the two choices though - Biden vs. Trump:-(. It’s like: imagine a robber steals your wallet, and offers you either the cash or your ID cards back (apparently the credit cards aren’t on the table for negotiation), but what they want in return is for you to say “please” - what do you do? Take one, or the other, or just walk away and leave both behind? Fighting the US government does not seem an effective option. We can cry about it, maybe go away and train for decades (as Batman did:-P) with the thought of perhaps getting revenge, but in that moment, our choices are limited. As I understand it, that is pragmatism.
Unfortunately when faced with genocidal fascism, pragmatism looks an awful lot like appeasement… And after 40 years of appeasing the oligarchy while they slowly take away our rights, health, and wealth, I think people are almost ready to fight. Maybe not physically… But in any way they can.
Which brings us to the fact that there are 3 choices in the upcoming election… Trump, Biden, stay home (or 3rd party, but that’s basically the same as staying home unfortunately)… If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it… Instead they’re just following their already shown to fail bullying strategy… It’s really irritating to see them seemingly willfully losing to Trump rather than go against their corporate masters… Again
The reason Trump is so popular is because he’s a protest vote. At least in the delusional minds of the maga crowd. He is certainly not a part of the oligarchy controlling the establishment… He’s his own oligarchy, and a dangerous one too… But his followers are very dumb and very brainwashed. All they see is that he’s a way to fight against the establishment. The Dems needed to put up a protest candidate of their own. Utterly reject the establishment/oligarchy, and embrace the protest… Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
I think people are almost ready to fight
Not in a useful way though. Conservatives fought, and therefore won the overturning of Roe v. Wade - they put in decades of effort to achieve that, and therefore did. They stood in solidarity, prior to Trump, and now the whole party is sliding QUICKLY and EXTREMELY Right-wards, to once again stand in solidarity at that new point.
In contrast, liberals tend to eat their own - case in point, look at what we all are doing to Biden right now (me too just to a lesser degree than some others).
And I am not even saying that is “wrong” - that is simply the nature of the game when talking about “correctness”. e.g., 1 + 1 = 2, but 1.9 and 2.1 don’t “quite” cut it, nor even 1.99 or 2.01, despite being so very, very close. Or let’s use an even more hyperbolic example to illustrate: suppose I ask a liberal what the answer is to the question of “what is 1+1?”, and the Democrats step in to say that “the answer is +1,000” (while ofc pocketing the other $998.00, b/c of corruption). That’s way off… but the answer that conservatives give is to kill your dog and fuck your mom, and then risk her life too b/c she’s not allowed to have an abortion even despite the rape (and then the Republicans pocket not only $998.00 but $1,999,999.00, just b/c they can). So which is “better”? Are there alternatives? Is the answer given by the Democrats more “correct”, despite being so very, VERY wrong? TLDR on this point: they are both wrong, but not equally so.
If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it…
Yup.
Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Yup.
The rich people - like HRC - are so disconnected from modern life, that they cannot conceive of what it is like to be a Millennial or a Gen-Z person, who looks forward to not just “intern first, then real job”, but “intern forever, b/c that’s just all there is these days, stable job=never, ability to own a home=never (or is it never? either way it certainly looks that way now and shows no signs of improving… literally ever, plus Social Security + Medicare are drying up and with that money have been already stolen from us, will literally never, ever, EVER be returned…)”. And HRC’s response to ALL of that was, in short: “Life is good, let’s keep it that way, shall we?:-P PokeMon-go-to-the-polls, woot (please believe that I’m just like you - one of the [insert your predefined categorization here] - and btw did you know I carry hot sauce in my purse at all times?)”.
On the other hand, the Gaza situation is just the icing on the cake: regardless of the actual genocide going on there, it won’t fix our economy. The latter involves terribly boring steps, many of which Biden seems to be taking? But the media won’t report them, and I wouldn’t understand them myself anyway so… we are back to the “Just trust me bro - I got this! (also I’m totally not a senile old man-puppet propped up on crack to give speeches while the real work is done behind-the-scenes, which we cannot talk about for uh… reasons, but it’ll be good, this time, I promise, just vote for me and you’ll see what we have planned later!)”
Also, are we even arguing anymore? :-P I think we agree on pretty much everything. Oh I remember, there’s one more detail got us started: the difference between what I am saying vs. you is that we are not being offered a primary with which to pick a different approach. So when you say things like “The Dems needed to…” and “If Dems and Biden really wanted to…” and “Instead they’re just… It’s really irritating to”, my question is: now what? So you don’t like it - I don’t either - but what are we going to do about it? Yeah, that’s what I thought - I have no clue either.:-( But I’ve been wrong before - e.g. I thought no way would Trump win - so now I am just trying to strain my eyes open as wide as I can make them, to learn from whatever happens.
I appreciate your thoughtful response.
Sadly the Republican’s “grassroots” orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get none… Without funding I don’t know that there’s much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now I’ve moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I don’t see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.
Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually they’ll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothing… What about when they’ve squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing they’ve been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully it’s before millions die in the streets.
Also USA killed this many civilians in Iraq per year, during the entire duration of the war.
Yes, and GWB was a horrible person for doing that. I thought we learned from these mistakes?
and what happened? oh yeah actual leftist rabble roused and protested the Iraq war, whereas centrist Dems were lockstep with Republicans to invade over lies.
Great example, it really shows how little Dems have cared about leftists for decades.
Aaaaand…how did that protest go for ya? Did it work? Did anything change?
No?
Imagine that.
Great example. It really shows how little the far left understands nuance and common sense.
I guess you are right. Maybe I should be in favor of war and genocide then because it’s always working. Thank you kind stranger, I will stop protesting now.
So… knowing that some protests in the past have been pointless is the key to supporting genocide now?
You seem to like going WAY out of your way to maintain ignorance, don’t you? Instead of accepting that your point was dismissed, you opted to throw a hissy fit and cut off your own nose in a bad faith attempt to make another point.
Incredibly childish.
It was sarcasm
It was stupid.
History is filled with examples of the righteous being defeated by the wicked.
Christ, being such an example
As I recall…. Things didn’t work out well for Christ. Pretty sure the end score was:
Wicked: 1
Christ: 0
That was literally my point. And is the entire point of Christianity
So your point was to prove my point.
Well done.
Shhh! People haven’t been terminally online about Israel/Palestine for the past several years juy to admit, in this moment, that their own country commits larger atrocities every day. What do you expect them to do, admit that their own country was founded on settler colonialism and that their continued participation amounts to what Zionism is: a belief that the settlements you live on are legitimate and should be protected?
This is such a weird gotcha, because I don’t know a single person who denounces the Israel’s genocidal behavior who isn’t also denouncing America’s genocidal behavior. Like, yeah, killing innocent people is bad; let’s keep this bandwagon going and overthrow all genocidal governments, please!
America’s killing of civlians during the Iraq war was absolutely a horrible atrocity, but it wasn’t genocide. Words have meaning.
America’s been around a lot longer than the beginning of the Iraq war. We nearly eradicated the Native Americans to gain their land, we’ve placed illegitimate governments in Honduras and Guatemala, nearly eradicating the Mayan population for the sake of our own economic exploitation of the area, and so on. And honestly, most people backed the Iraq war specifically because they hated middle eastern people, so I don’t think calling it a genocide would be much of a stretch; if the area’s population were small enough to easily suppress the way the Mayans were, we’d have probably just focused on that strategy again in order to secure the cheap oil we were after.
Comment chain started with this:
Also USA killed this many civilians in Iraq per year, during the entire duration of the war.
I was just staying on topic.
My comment was in response to a comment about American colonialism and the genocide that came along with it, which is why I addressed it. Topics often change throughout the course of a conversation, and the same can happen in a comment thread.
Can count Vietnam, north Korean too.
Still not sure why you think they are related othet than people were killed.
The comment chain started with:
Also USA killed this many civilians in Iraq per year, during the entire duration of the war.
So just false equivalent to compare number of deaths to make a genocide not look like a genocide?
And promising to do one here
Shitty justifications for Biden’s support for genocide I’ve actually seen on lemmy:
In third place: That’s the way we’ve always done it.
In second: We’re worried that the people who chanted “Jews will not replace us” will call us antisemitic.
And now in first place: Trump did it so that makes it ok.
Let’s just get this clear: Most everyone “defending” genocide aren’t happy what’s happening. If the world was perfect and always going the way we wanted, this would never be. We don’t vote Biden, even if we celebrate the (all too uncommen) victories. We vote Blue, for hope.
Let’s just get this clear: Most everyone “defending” genocide aren’t happy what’s happening.
Provided you ignore how angry they get when you suggest that Biden stop supporting genocide.
Are they angry cause you’re bashing Biden, or is it because they have to keep telling and reminding people how bad it can be and was with the alternative to Biden. They’re stuck defending a man they really don’t want to, because they know how bad the alternative is.
This election is literally the definition of voting for the lesser evil. Both, unfortunately, will continue genociding. Only one has said they want to be a dictator HERE though.
Are they angry cause you’re bashing Biden
“Biden should stop supporting genocide” is bashing only if you don’t want him to stop.
or is it because they have to keep telling and reminding people how bad it can be and was with the alternative to Biden
This is lemmy. Everyone fucking knows. Can’t even gripe about the guy you voted for supporting genocide without someone feeling the need to centrist-splain how genocide is moral because it’s their guy supporting it.
They’re stuck defending a man they really don’t want to,
I’m seeing no evidence of this.
Is this ‘bOtH sIdEs’? or ‘wHaTaBoUt TrUmP’?
The way I interpreted their comment is that people often mention Biden supports genocide and some people may assume Trump doesn’t - so it’s worth mentioning that of course Trump supports genocide too (on top of all the other horrible shit he supports contributing to why he shouldn’t be in power).
I would be amazed if anyone on lemmy.world was at all unaware of trump’s encouragement of genocide.
I am amazed that anyone on lemmy.world could have possibly thought people on lemmy were unaware of Trump’s encouragement of genocide.
I am not surprised that it seems to be the only concern.
If I’ve learned anything about people through the past decade of politics its that you can never ever assume anything about people being intelligent in any group.
If I’ve learned anything about political discourse it’s that you have to assume that some level of mutual understanding is possible for communication to be worthwhile, and for everything to not devolve into back and forth trolling. So, while you can’t assume intelligence, sure, you also kind of have to.
So given it an election year you could agree that comparing both potential future presidents is a healthy option.
Guess your argument is self-defeating, I’m gonna go for a hike 🤷🌲🌲
In an election year I would agree that agitating complacent liberals into caring about warcrimes is a healthy option
I would be amazed if anyone on lemmy.world was at all unaware of trump’s encouragement of genocide.
Plenty seem to think there’s no difference between the two, so they’re either unaware or fascists.
I actually think the the problem is that most here think there is a difference between Biden supporting genocide and Trump supporting genocide.
“There’s literally no difference between the position of Trump and Biden on the Palestinian genocide” - A Very Serious Archomrade
“There’s literally a big difference between supporting a genocide but not wanting to and supporting a genocide and wanting to” - A very serious pugjesus.
Trump wants to be dictator and is talking about a third term and you dipshits still keep on with your divisive nonsense meant to push people into political apathy. Lol this site’s political discourse has been completely hijacked by bad-faith, blame Dems at all costs bullshit.
To those not acting in bad faith, you should vote Biden because at least you know he will peacefully step down when his term is up. Trump will try more J6 style violence to stay in power. Could you imagine 20 years of Trump, or if he appointed one of his kids president?
Pull your head out of your ass and vote Biden.
ITT: you’re a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide.
There’s a lot of people who plan on voting Biden, myself included, who effectively feel held hostage at this point. “Don’t criticize support for genocide or Trump is going to destroy the country and probably kill a lot of people” is probably one of the most frustrating political discourses I’ve ever experienced. The folks making this argument are right in that Trump winning is bad for everyone, including the Palestinians, and I can empathize with the pragmatism there. That said, that argument rings hollowly for me, because it comes across as so utterly cynical. It reads (to me) as though genocide registers at the same level of urgency as dysfunction at the DMV. They’re sorry for the inconvenience (and probably they really are sorry that it’s happening) but non-combatants getting starved, shot, drone striked, and buried under rubble by our allies is just not something that’s convenient to deal with right now. I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
I mean its barely about what people here think.
Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don’t support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@PugJesus@lemmy.world ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
So what if you’ve been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don’t believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don’t shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.
You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn’t do this his own; he did this to get elected because that’s what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.
I’m just amazed at the amount they punch left then don’t understand why it’s always an issue.
Maybe I’ve gotten too old and cynical to be surprised by it.
Its been the theme of the modern Democratic party to work diligently to cut off your nose to spite your face.
I mean look at the recent jungle primary in California. Adam Schiffs campaign spent millions supporting Republicans in that primary to avoid having to compete against Katie Porter.
It often seems like Democrats have nothing but contempt for their voters. Its not clear to me that they care. Its only a very very few number of Democrats who are actually responsive to their voters.
I hate how dirty they did Katie. But not surprised considering she’d actually hold people to account.
(and of course you got banned from the community but pug is allowed to constantly attack people)
There were 24 hours of bliss about a week ago when pugjesus was temp banned
Just amazed they banned someone for trolling while pug gets to shit and spam everywhere in this community
Frankly I’m a bit alarmed i haven’t been banned myself. I can imagine the mod logs are full of complaints at this point
The problem is that beating/ guilting/shaming voters doesn’t work.
You forgot to add gaslighting.
or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
The problem is that there is absolutely no way of “forcing” the (so-called) “Democratic” party on this through “formal” means - if you vote for them and they win, they will simply know that they can get you to rubber-stamp their complicity in genocide. If you vote for them and they lose or you punish them by not voting and they lose, they still won’t care - they know that four years of Trump will force you back to the ballots to vote for them in four years’ time anyway. In fact, I suspect they are betting on the latter scenario.
You’re being pushed up against a wall - a wall that wouldn’t be there if you actually lived in a democratic society.
Or you’re not being gaslit, Biden is being honest, and you’re wrong about the underlying factual premise.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence… I assume you have some?
Everyone should block PugJesus for a better Lemmy experience.
PugJesus has been a constant wedge between Leftists and Liberals. They only serve to be a terminally online agitator, and whenever it’s pointed out that their agitative propaganda only serves to confirm anti-leftist bias among Lemmy.world’s liberals and further ruins a broader leftist-liberal coalition, ironically making fewer people vote for Biden, they just mald and disengage.
When I asked what they truly believe, they believe themselves to be a leftist that doesn’t agree with Marx’s Dialectical Materialism.
They reserve only the harshest criticism for actually existing Socialist movements, such as when they trashed the Black Panther Party, but fight tooth and nail for a nuanced view of Liberalism and Liberal movements against Leftists.
No leftist is pure enough, no liberal impure enough.
It truly makes me wonder if PugJesus has any actual firmly held beliefs or if they just act in reflex.
I’m gonna go touch some grass, i’ll pass my baton to you.
Gotchu.
W How is it costing him the election any polls to back this up?
Nobody thinks a little genocide is okay. Nobody is saying that at all. But it’s not a choice between a little genocide and no genocide. It’s a difference between a little genocide and a LOT of genocide. When Trump gives his blessing to glassing Gaza with a nuke, will you tell the remnants of the civilians that are left that it’s fine because the Democrats will understand now that they should’ve been harder on Israel?
What is actually more important? Doing what’s best for the Palestinians from the options that actually exist, or punishing Democrats?
I’m not any happier than you are about the choices that we have, but wishful thinking doesn’t give us a third path. This isn’t a movie. To get a third option you’d have to convince at the very least a plurality of the population of the US to vote for another candidate that is gung-ho behind forcing Israel to stop (a proposition that isn’t guaranteed even if the US cuts off all support today, by the way). That’s a tall order, especially with how well it’s going convincing 100 or so people on a Lemmy thread.
Do people think nukes will really happen or is it hyperbole? Jared kushner wants to own beach front property in Gaza.
I mean, for me it’s hyperbole, but whether it’s a literal nuke or a completely unrestrained Israeli army outfitted with unlimited US weapons, the outcome for Palestinian refugees in Gaza isn’t much different.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
Ah yes, the evidence of that being [checks notes] Hillary, a notoriously unpopular and uncharismatic politician, narrowly losing due to the electoral college.
I guess people in 2020 were just REALLY fired up about Biden, huh?
They were really fired up AGAINST Trump.
Its 4 years later.
In terms of the policy position that is going to decide this election, they have the same policy: Genocide for the people of Palestine.
You should stop being an apologist for genocide.
They were really fired up AGAINST Trump.
That sounds almost like guilt or shame at the prospect of letting Trump win.
In terms of the policy position that is going to decide this election
Fucking lmao
She didn’t lose narrowly because of the electoral college.
She lost massively because even knowing the rules of the election didn’t campaign at all in the Midwest swing States while receiving increasingly alarmed warnings from the local DNC members in those States.
Your response is like a loser going ‘I wouldn’t have lost if it wasn’t for the rules’ when everyone knew the rules in advance.
You can argue for getting rid of the electoral college and if be right there with you. But you don’t get to pretend it’s not a thing when trying to win before you get rid of it.
This is such a weird strawman
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell. I saw somebody who was in favor of it a couple days ago, which makes 2 users I have ever seen.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I’m never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it’s exactly what he wanted
Then a second whole bunch of people said hey every single one of those things except part of the last one isn’t true, also, Trump is worse on the genocide piece
And so now the first people are insisting that what the second people said was, “Don’t criticize support for genocide”. That wasn’t the point. The fact that a good bit of what the people in the first group are saying, is wrong, means they get people disagreeing with them, which always gets misrepresented as some lunatic pro-genocide silencing of criticism. But it’s pretty much never a message of “please stop criticizing my genocide guy otherwise Trump might win.”
If you want to express urgency about helping the Palestinians, please do so. Send messages to your congresspeople. Vote “uncommitted.” Go to a protest. Tell Biden he’ll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z). Any of those things, or something else. Sounds great.
I think the thing you’re hearing is more “I want to end genocide just as much as you do, now let’s talk about how to do it, and also yes how to avoid one that’s 10 times worse that depending on how we go about it might be one of the possible outcomes.” I don’t see why that would be frustrating to hear. And I don’t think it’s at all the same as “please stop criticizing Biden that’s not allowed” or anything like that. Most of the threads on this topic have their most upvoted comment as “Jesus Christ I wish he wouldn’t do that” or something along those lines; this fiction where criticizing Biden for enabling this genocide is at all unpopular is not at all the reality.
I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
Actually, one of them weighed in on Lemmy on this exact narrative, where people are using his dead relatives to justify this one very particular political stance about being reluctant to vote for Joe Biden (and for some reason not to justify getting involved in some electoral or non-electoral way to actually help his relatives who are still alive). He wasn’t about it.
Is it a straw man, though? Just look at the post we’re in. OP, at face value, wants the democrats to win but thinks they’re bungling the odds by supporting genocide. There’s already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters, as well as at least one commenter I’ve seen so far suggesting that we can’t be critical about this now because the election is too important.
There’s already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters
Yes, because he framed his point in one particular emotionally resonant way that just maybe by pure coincidence tends to do more or less nothing at all for the Palestinians except hurt them, and by pure coincidence happens to feed Trump’s chances in the election.
The strawman I was specifically responding to was that commenter “you’re a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide”. I’ve called it a genocide many many times; never got called a Trump supporter. I’ve said Biden is enabling it, said all the Palestinians will be dead by the time he works his way around to real consequences for Netanyahu at this rate, compared the Biden State Department to the Nazis, lots of stuff. I said we should contact our representatives and left some links (not that it did a fuckin thing.) Linked to a Ralph Nader interview where he talked about how to demand concessions in exchange for your vote, to put pressure on elected officials like Biden, particularly as it applies to this genocide. Never got called a Trump supporter.
You know what I didn’t do? Get all emotional about how I really don’t want to vote for Biden now, and suggest a particular framing for the issue that will help Trump, but won’t help the Palestinians. I suspect that if I started doing that, and did it consistently every day from a variety of different viewpoints and combined it with a bunch of other criticism of Biden that wasn’t true, then people might suspect I was a Trump supporter. But I don’t do that. Why? Because I’m not a Trump supporter.
Yes, because he framed his point in one particular emotionally resonant way that just maybe by pure coincidence tends to do more or less nothing at all for the Palestinians except hurt them, and by pure coincidence happens to feed Trump’s chances in the election.
I’ve seen so many tinfoil hat comments from you at this point that I’m sure you must be feeling lonely.
I’m not rooting for a trump presidency. I’m rooting for Biden to stop a genocide, and I believe 1000% Biden will lose on this issue alone if he doesn’t address it.
Will dropping his support for Isreal really get him voters? I’m not sure we can say that. He will loose support from zionists and believe it or not they are the ones that put him in office the first time. We knew back then.
The best and really only thing would to be stop the concerted effort to supress voter turn out. Then again the bad actors aren’t going to stop and the rubes will follow them into the pits of hell. So pretty much, fucked every which way. Enjoy your moral highground while we are all under a mountain of shit.
I have seen nothing but evidence that this fucks him
But also why shouldn’t it? It’s a contemptible thing for him to do (like at least don’t be public about it, that way voters can safely ignore it)
The best and really only thing would to be stop the concerted effort to supress voter turn out.
I could not disagree more, his approval is already the second lowest in modern history. I don’t know about you but I don’t know how to campaign around ‘yea, he’s supporting a genocide, BUT’. nor would I fucking want to! How much shit should I be expected to have to eat just so I can get voters to ignore possibly the most publicly grotesque international policy i’ve ever seen?
We tried ignoring voters in 2016. Sure let’s try that again, see if it works this time
They ignore voters every election.
The message isn’t vote this turd in it’s hey don’t be stupid and let christo-fascism take root.
Every additional issue Biden ignores he looses a portion of his base’s enthusiasm. Sure, some of these people would never vote for Biden for a bunch of reasons, but everyone has a limit to what they’re willing to concede on, and I have to say that supporting a genocidal project is a pretty big one.
It would be irresponsible if we weren’t sounding the alarms that he’s strayed too far away from his winning coalition. That’s not me being principled (even though it is), that’s me being pragmatic.
Everyone else who’s rallying a couple hundred users on lemmy to ignore that issue is covering their eyes to the oncoming train.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I’m never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it’s exactly what he wanted
For the record: this is a strawman. You know that saying about Republicans always accusing others of the things they’re guilty of themselves? I would suggest not following the Republican playbook.
I mean, I exaggerated for humor, but people did absolutely say:
- Biden ruined the economy
- Biden fucked up on climate change
- Biden betrayed us by not decriminalizing marijuana after he said he would
- “Separating families at the border” got worse under Biden
- Trump’s Covid policy was amenable to people steering him the right way whereas Biden cancelled a bunch of the safety things we needed
- Biden is the one doing the genocide
Aside from the genocide, the last few were so laughable that it’s easy to conclude I just made them up as a pure strawman, but yes I absolutely had people tell me the un-exaggerated version of them.
Would it be better if I spelled out exactly what were the literal things people told to me instead? Yeah maybe I shouldn’t “joke” in this way if I’m gonna be saying other people are using a strawman.
He’s not separating families at the border, but he is keeping children in open air detention camps without sanitation or adequate food and water.
Migrants who cross the border illegally wait under open skies or sometimes in tents or structures made of tree branches while short on food and water. When the number of migrants was particularly high last year, they waited for several days for Border Patrol agents to arrest and process them.
Gee said there was “significant evidence” that Customs and Border Protection, of which Border Patrol is a part, has physical control over minors at the outdoor locations. For example, CBP vehicles occasionally transport or drop off migrants to the camps and for a time, gave out wristbands to organize migrants by when they had arrived.
“This is a tremendous victory for children at open air detention sites, but it remains a tragedy that a court had to direct the government to do what basic human decency and the law clearly require,” Neha Desai, senior director of immigration at the National Center for Youth Law, said in a statement. “We expect CBP to comply with the court’s order swiftly, and we remain committed to holding CBP accountable for meeting the most rudimentary needs of children in their legal custody, including food, shelter, and basic medical care.”
Congress writes the statutes on how people are detained.
Show me the statute stating that asylum seekers need to be kept in open air detention with inadequate food, water, and hygiene.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11343
Cites to the statutes for detention on who and how long, as well as the 2018 Supreme Court decision I referred to, authorizing indefinite detention.
The horrid conditions are factors of other statutes related to budgets and sovereign immunity. I’m sure I can point you to some of the civil lawsuits about conditions so you can trace back the Republican policy of cruelty as it permeated immigration law.
There’s a massive number of people coming in, a big increase, and the Republicans have been blocking increases in funding for the US law enforcement agencies that deal with them (which, the left gives him grief for because increasing funding for ICE means he’s a monster), and increases in the number of judges so there’s not this huge backlog. So yes, there’s a huge number of people and not enough US resources to properly care for them.
I.e. migrants are being left in limbo in inhumane conditions for long lengths of time. However, Biden’s attempted several times to solve that and been specifically prevented. It’s hard for me to see that as something which he is deliberately doing on purpose.
I addressed the thing that you said, which was perfectly fair although I feel there’s a reasonable reason for that situation which isn’t Biden’s fault. The thing the other person said to me wasn’t that, though; it was specifically that Biden had made family separation worse, which is absurd.
So yes, there’s a huge number of people and not enough US resources to properly care for them.
And yet I’m sure they’ll find the money to get it done now that a judge has ordered them to. It’s almost like Biden is actually hostile to asylum seekers.
WASHINGTON — Senate Democrats plan to force a vote Thursday on the bipartisan border security package that Republicans blocked this year, an attempt to flip the script on immigration politics, a major vulnerability for President Joe Biden.
The legislation, negotiated by Republican and Democratic senators, is designed to reduce border crossings, raise the bar for migrants to qualify for asylum and quickly turn away those who fail to meet it. It empowers the president to shut down the border if certain triggers are met. If it becomes law, it would be the most sweeping set of migration restrictions in decades. Biden has endorsed the bill.
Now do asylum policy according to Congress and the Republican Supreme Court…
I don’t get it man.
The Republicans are calling for more and more cruelty (e.g. raising the bar for aslyum). Biden is trying to alleviate the exact conditions you’re describing, in addition to compromising with them some of the cruelty you’re asking for, and you’re giving him shit for it.
What in your world should he do? Magic a bill into existence that will fix the conditions you’re talking about, without getting it through congress or needing the support of the Republicans?
Why are you saying that weakening his position against the Republicans until things get better is the way for you to solve that problem? Are you happy with the babies waiting outside in the hot sun for months and months until your plan bears fruit, should he withdraw the current bill and go back to the drawing board and them just wait outside until your plan comes through?
Sure, and other people also had very different criticisms of him than your list that aren’t as easy to dismiss. The strawman is you cherry-picking these to argue against in order to demonstrate some blanket point about people who don’t want to vote for Biden, when only one of these is the actual point of the conversation (and not in the hyperbolized way you presented it).
So yeah, I would 100% suggest not committing a logical fallacy while you’re criticizing others for committing that logical fallacy.
I’ve been on the receiving end of names such as “Genocide Lover” and man is that just exactly what I wish my Dad who went to get cigarettes and never came back would have called me before he left. I agree with you. People for some damned reason seem to be stuck.
The Genocide sucks balls.
Trump sucks balls.
Trump + Power = Genocide Ball Sucking on a whole new level
Biden sucks a bit less balls, though would suck far less if he stepped up and actually condemned the Genocide properly. Currently, Biden’s big balls are on fire.
Like, none of this situation is good. Most of it is malicious and evil on too many levels, and faaaar more complicated than the majority of us realize. At the end of the day we do have three significant immediate problems:
- Ukraine and Putin
- Gaza and the Genocide
- Trump and the GOP
We CAN focus on all of these and it doesn’t have to be to the exclusion, or support/lack-thereof, of the others. Problem is, every time you say “Shit’s bad and this Genocide is evil, vote Biden for the love of God.” Someone comes screaming in with a, “BIDEN?! YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE?!” and you can’t get a sideways word in.
I think a lot of it is this weird parasocial thing where it’s like you have to “support” a politician to vote for them. With very rare exceptions I don’t “support” any US politician, like I’m friends with them. I just want to get as good an outcome as I can for me and the other people in the world, and I think that’ll come from a combination of choosing better outcomes within the system that’s presented, and working outside the system to try to change it to introduce as much actual democracy into it in the long run as is possible.
I personally think the alternative perspective is a weird one, where politicians and policies are monolithic and unmovable, and challenging them necessarily means damaging the entire system. I was always taught that the strength of democracy was its enabling of negotiation, but you’re suggesting that there’s no negotiation to be had at all.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it’s actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn’t happened yet.
It’s absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you’d feel better if that didn’t make you guilty of ‘supporting’ genocide, i think it’s kind of self-evident.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it’s actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn’t happened yet.
I talked about this - withholding your vote to put pressure on Biden and communicating to him effectively that that’s what you’re doing makes perfect sense to me. I linked to the Ralph Nader article where he talks about doing that.
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he’s currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don’t think that’s the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I’m just saying how I look at the election. Unless Biden had some sort of mental break that made him start acting worse than Trump in terms of what he’ll do with power, I’m planning on voting for him. If I thought lying about that would create a positive impact in some way, then yeah, maybe I might. IDK. Maybe not. I definitely wouldn’t be as vocal about how ok a job he’s doing, yeah.
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn’t caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, though. Why is the genocide in Gaza a red line but preventing a genocide in Ukraine, or saving a million American lives from the next pandemic, or mitigating climate change (to whatever extent we even still can) moving the needle away from billions of lost lives in the not-too-distant future, why aren’t those red lines?
It’s absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you’d feel better if that didn’t make you guilty of ‘supporting’ genocide, i think it’s kind of self-evident.
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you’re doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better. I think I linked somewhere to a comment from someone who claimed to be Palestinian American who actually specifically asked Americans not to do this (use his dead relatives as justification for their political stance which was going to endanger him much more along with many of his still living relatives). It’s on bestof if you didn’t see it.
There are lots of Palestinian Americans calling on people to Abandon Biden. One token Palestinian American on Lemmy who disagrees isn’t particularly persuasive.
“If it came down to Trump and Joe Biden, I will vote for Trump. Because it doesn’t get worse than Joe Biden,” a man named Salah told me. His friend, Amad, added, “Biden was supposed to be the peacemaker. The comfort-maker. Instead, he became accessory to the biggest genocide in modern history.”
…
“Imagine thinking it’s a good argument to say to a community that has lost 30,000 people, ‘Watch out for the guy that’s going to ban you.’ You’re really asking me whether I’m going to take a ban or a genocide? I’ll take a ban,” Zahr told me.
“I mean, we’ve literally seen our families and our people being thrown into mass graves. Babies blown to bits. It’s not some far-off thing to us,” he said. “It’s been a struggle to declare our own humanity while mourning for our people being massacred.”
…
The truth is Ahmed was one of the only Arabs I could find in Dearborn who openly admitted they actually planned to vote for Biden in November.
I don’t think he was using that example in good faith, frankly. He’s a reasonable guy but even reasonable people get tempted by convenient evidence
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he’s currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don’t think that’s the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I don’t think you realize how far reaching popular opinion can spread through social media. I don’t think Biden is reading, either, but if the sentiment that he’ll lose was more widespread, then I think that would absolutely put pressure on him. I also think the complacent stance can reach quite far, which is why it’s frustrating seeing people like pugjesus so militant about reinforcing it and why I think it’s frustrating to you to see me and others agitating action. (It wouldn’t make sense for you to be worried about bad actors otherwise)
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn’t caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, though
I’ll tell you what I read into this: American imperialist state action is so ingrained in the democratic party that it is inconceivable to you that they’d let it go, even in the face of a literal fascist taking control. And I think the people you’re talking to here, who’ve felt for a long time that America has been on the wrong side of geopolitical struggle for 80 years, find that to be the most damning part of your position.
It’s inconceivable to wish fascism onto the people of America and the world, but that the democratic party can sooner accept it than consider pulling back the American global apparatus is… well, I guess it makes it hard to root for them, doesn’t it?
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you’re doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better
I think what you mean is that it’s convenient, but I obviously don’t see it that way. I think it would absolutely help the Palestinians for the US to stop obstructing justice against Israeli leaders, and I don’t accept the premise that their reality would somehow be worse than it already is if trump was egging Israel on. The UN is already poised to react against Israel, if they cross a lot more lines they’d risk expulsion (along with us). Who knows, but it’s not just about Palestinians, the US has abused its influence across the globe and setting the record straight about what the electorate will tolerate would undoubtedly help more countries down the line, if Biden accepts the critique.
Yours is probably the correct take, or near enough. The U.S., on a sociocultural level, tends to take sides. It’s nurtured into us. Sports is arguably the biggest reason, though throw in the news, social commentary, and a bit of high divorce rates, amongst other reasons, and you’ll have yourself a cake split down some middle. While far more complicated than this simple explanation, the reality is we are divided. This division makes it really difficult to want to agree with someone who doesn’t take your exact stance. Whatever reason justifies such firm footing on shaky ground is further falsely reinforced by those who exist just to rabble-rouse, 2024 Digital Digger Edition; “Our Words Harm”.
It’s become difficult to look at comments stuck in the social node of Biden=Bad or Bust in good faith, because they often don’t discuss and instead tend to yell.
Which really is sad, because we do need to come together.
I’m not holding hands with a Nazi, and I’m not voting for someone who is doing a genocide. If that makes me a divisive asshole, so be it.
No idea what it makes you. We’ll see soon enough. I just hope that if Trump does win people like you don’t up and go silent.
Either way actually. Whatever our differences, we can all agree that life could be much better.
Cheers to that. I marched in November 2016 and I’ll march in November 2024. I wish I didn’t have to march in May 2024, but it is what it is.
I’ve been on the receiving end of names such as “Genocide Lover”
Tell the rest of that story.
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell
As someone who frequents worldnews from lemmy.world, a sizable amount of IDF apologists who do actually defend genocide show up every week, although they consistently get banned.
There’s also a bunch of wackos on Hexbear and Lemmygrad who will sneer with joy at the idea of Ukrainians getting displaced to never be able to return, although you have to dig in to find them.
Tell Biden he’ll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z).
If you have to vote for him anyway this is an empty threat. And they know it.
Criticize all you want. I certainly do. But understand at the end of the day that as pathetically little as Biden is doing to help, he isn’t doing literally zero. Allowing Trump to win is objectively voting for MORE genocide, and in fact, the end of any potential for a Palestinian state in any form. None of this is secret - none of this is speculation. If people would take 15 minutes and read the ACTUAL Trump middle eastern peace plan that he ACTUALLY PUT FORTH when he was president, it’s pretty obvious he would allow MUCH MUCH worse than Biden without batting an eye.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan
There is no room for argument on that. Is Biden bad for Palestinians and allowing genocide? Yes. Would allowing Trump to win be WORSE? Yes. You’re upset that angry wolves are eating someone, and you should be. But the solution is not replacing them with angry bears.
They literally just said they were voting for Biden. Why are you lecturing them? All you’re doing is demonstrating that Democrats don’t listen.
Okay, fair point, and I acknowledge it. I’m no saint and I get preachy. It’s a character flaw, and I apologize if I caused offense.
It’s not just a character flaw you have - it appears to be endemic to dem apologists in general.
Since you’re one of the first I’ve seen even acknowledge it, I would love to understand from you what kind of media diet or environment produces this blindness to critique. I suspect it comes from abject terror of conservatives & fascism and a sense of powerlessness to affect real change outside the narrow system given to you by voting, even though voting is also deeply disempowering.
Since you asked, I’ll answer.
My acknowledged character flaw is my preachiness about my position, particularly in a environment like a lemmy thread where we’re all shouting into a void. I do not, however, make apologies for my position.
I am not a dem apologist - I am a utilitarian. I would love to see both Biden and Trump out on their asses and a viable, functioning third party option. But that is one of a number of things that are not realistic right now. I look at the world right now and I don’t have the ability to look at the trolley problem we’ve been given, sit down, and refuse to make a decision because I believe it’s going to somehow punish the trolley for daring to give me a choice I don’t like. I have to choose whether to pull the lever.
The absolute reality of this election boils down to two logically consistent positions that make sense.
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- The system is so utterly unsalvageable and without merit that I am willing to make any sacrifice to force a shock to the system that might be big enough to shatter it in the hopes that something better can emerge in the future.
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- The best we can do is to minimize damage until an opportune time to push for greater change.
Both of these positions are logically consistent, and make total sense. I don’t happen to agree with the first one, but if that’s your jam? I understand it. But own it. The logically inconsistent position that drives me absolutely crazy is to claim that a Biden loss is somehow consistent with a moral crusade to protect Palestinian refugees. That’s absolutely insane and illogical to the point where it is at best based in ignorance and at worst reeks of intellectual dishonesty. If you are motivated primarily by the fate of Palestinians, a Biden victory or loss is not about Biden at all. If you are motivated primarily by number 1, and you want break the eggs to make the omelette, have the moral courage to be honest about it. I, for one, am not in that boat. I don’t have the ability to perform the fancy, nonsensical mental gymnastics necessary to sacrifice an entire culture of people on the altar of my ideological purity and then claim with a straight face that I’m somehow doing it for their benefit. I have to do the cold, calculating work of estimating how many people will ACTUALLY die and/or suffer as a result of the decisions I do or do not make, and then make an unpalatable choice that protects the things I find important because that’s just how life is. A series of sub-optimal choices that reflect the messy reality we live in.
I expect everyone to do the same, even if the things they find important aren’t the same things I do. But when someone claims to value the same things I do and ALSO make decisions that are against those interests by EVERY single sound and reasonable measure? I already dealt with that kind of nonsense when I used to get dragged to church.
As pointed out earlier, this person I responded to in this thread isn’t that person, and I do apologize for implying otherwise. But the person I’m talking about here DOES exist. That person is in this thread. And that person needs to hear this.
Okay, I don’t really want to debate the merits of the position. I could but I don’t think we’re too far apart on it. So the character flaw is the preachiness and I misunderstood that’s what you meant, but you still have said something very interesting that I want to understand. I really wanted to know about this:
As pointed out earlier, this person I responded to in this thread isn’t that person, and I do apologize for implying otherwise. But the person I’m talking about here DOES exist. That person is in this thread. And that person needs to hear this.
See, this is a mistake that people making pro-dem arguments - whether out of utilitarianism or some misguided sense of allegiance - keep running into. I have seen so many arguments that boil down to (and I’m not saying this is exactly what you did but it’s a general pattern):
A: Biden is screwing the pooch for XYZ clearly stated factual reasons.
B: You want Trump to win.
A: No, I think people should probably vote for Biden but he’s tanking it for XYZ clearly stated reasons.
B: Fuck you, MAGA/Ivan.
I was asking you about it because you are literally the first person out of dozens of these exchanges that I have ever seen admit to being wrong about this. I think that’s honestly admirable, and I was asking because I really want to understand if you have any insight as to where your misunderstanding came from.
If your answer is that it doesn’t matter because the person your argument is for is out there somewhere, then I think that’s a problem for reasons I can explain if you want to hear them. If you have another explanation I’m interested.
It seems to me we’re almost on the same page.
You’re right - my posts aren’t referring to a SPECIFIC person, but general statements targeted at a casual reader of the thread.
I think this is where most people’s overreaction comes from - being so passionate about the desired OUTCOME that they forget to actually be convincing about how to get there. Yes, there are a huge number of us that are not huge fans of many of Biden’s decisions, but voting for him anyway because of the limited number of choices we have. But there are clearly people out there who aren’t as inclined towards making those subtle distinctions, and it’s important that the discourse, as much as possible, makes clear to people that their vote need not be a declaration of undying love. It’s okay to say “Biden, but not happy about it.” It’s really important that those people see the whole view, particularly when there’s so much knee-jerk reaction towards both “YOU MUST SUPPORT HIM” and “YOU CAN’T SUPPORT HIM”.
That said, while of course it eases conscience to talk about how Biden has problems, helping someone who is gung-ho about supporting him to have doubts has almost no tangible benefits to the external reality we live in from the standpoint of the outcome I desire (I don’t post here to be neutral - of course I have a bias), and may actually have a negative impact. Helping someone who is on the fence understand that despite voting being essentially binary, there is a whole spectrum of valid ways to think about it, can lead someone to making a decision that can have a real impact on getting the outcome I see as best, so of course I want to counter the former with the latter.
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I make the same comment in all these threads, but you don’t have to vote for Biden. I’m planning on voting psl this November and you can too.
Forgive me, but the only psl I know is Pumpkin Spice Latte. Care to explain?
Party for socialism and liberation. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz this go round.
As someone who voted 3rd party in 2016, I very much regret it. It was a wasted vote and helped Trump get in office. The very same thing can happen again. Don’t get me wrong, I hate that Biden is the candidate. I hated it in 2020 as well. The Democratic party is a joke when it comes to putting up candidates. Until we aren’t a two party system, we have to vote for the lesser of two evils with a plausible chance of winning. If not and Trump wins again, we will only move backwards again. It felt like we took two steps backwards and a half step forward.
How we can generate change is by starting at the local level. Ranked choice voting has already begun at many local level elections. We need to campaign for this and for candidates that can make that happen.
I voted Democrat in 2020 and I very much regret it.
May I ask why? Is it for a single reason or multiple?
Because he turned out to be a genocidal ghoul
Do not fall for the idea that changing to some other method of voting will fix anything.
Plenty of European nations have all manner of goofy voting systems and parliamentary governments and they’re all still getting fascist parties and coalitions.
Even if we thanos-snapped ourselves into star or ranked choice or some other cheese eating surrender monkey voting style we’d still actually have to be not okay with our government sending 2000lb guided bombs to be dropped on hospitals.
That starts with not voting for Biden because a vote can only ever be seen as a show of support. There is no way to mark the little bubble that says “I’m only doing this to keep trump out of office” or the one labeled “wish it was anyone else”.
You can only show support with a vote and I urge you not to show support for Biden.
You should feel proud of your third party vote in 2016, I sure do. You can say a lot of bad things about trump, but he never laughed about having a nations leader sodomized to death with a knife on daytime tv.
I agree that there’s likely no ‘perfect’ system of government. Mostly because power corrupts most. But clearly the two party system is extremely dangerous so I still want a change to another method. Yes, ranked choice voting isn’t perfect but not trying to change/improve is giving up.
I do want to ask, it seems like you are fine with another Trump term. Do you not think fascism growth would be greater under his presidency? Do you think he won’t support the Israel government or worse, provide even more to them?
Our system of government forms a feedback loop with our social system. We can certainly change how we vote but without changing both the government and social system, modifications to our election process only change the interlink between the two. It’s clear from other extant nations dealing with fascist movements that a different interlink doesn’t fundamentally alter how both the government and social systems respond to material conditions.
It’s not giving up to recognize that a new transmission won’t fix a blown engine and stripped differential.
We might need a new transmission too, but it ain’t gettin us to pismo beach unless the rest is straightened out.
I’m not “fine” with another trump term, and I’m not “fine” with Bidens term or another one.
We are getting fascism. We have, right this very moment, got fascism.
We cannot fight fascism with gentler fascism or inclusive fascism or fascism with a welfare state, we can fight it with socialism, anarchism or communism.
To step away from the polemic for a little bit it’s interesting that you said we shouldn’t vote third party but instead should try to change the voting system. Here I am just asking people to do the easiest thing ever, mark a different box on a piece of paper, and the response is “no, before you do that simple, easy to accomplish thing you have to fundamentally alter how we choose officials!”
I don’t bring it up to make fun of you, because several other people have said that to me, but to ask what motivates that? I mean, do you think the only acceptable outcome for a political party is victory?
The time to vote against Biden was back in the primaries. We can try again during the next primary, but if we fuck around during the general, we’re going to find out how much worse a second Trump term will be.
The time to vote against Biden was back in the primaries.
Yeah. I remember centrists screaming that uncommitted votes in the primary were votes for Trump. The only thing that pleases a centrist is silence from critics.
Your vote for Biden is only a vote for Biden. It will never be a vote against trump. It will only ever signify support for Biden assistance and denial of a genocide.
The democrats don’t have a crystal ball, they can’t tell that you wish they would run someone else or that you feel forced to vote for their candidate despite his monstrous platform. They will only see support. They will only see what they can get away with.
I’m horrified by what’s going on in Gaza. It’s an atrocity that deserves maximum attention and intervention above pretty much any issue.
Biden is absolutely shitting the bed on this. But Trump isn’t gonna clean the sheets.
It’s not that genocide is a tertiary issue. It’s that both candidates will be complicit in the genocide, so it literally isn’t a factor when looking at the candidates.
If Biden doesn’t change course on this, he will lose.
POASIWID
In this comment: a bullshit-ass straw man
Its very simple.
If you think it’s bad now, for you, for Palestinians, for whoever, wait until Trump is in power. He’ll commit actual genocide, as in wipe them all out, as he claimed anyways, he’ll install himself as a dictator, as he claimed, and I’m not even starting with that Republican 2025 document that would like to make America into Gilead.
So shit up, swallow your pride, vote Biden. as soon as Biden is elected, protest all you want, block roads, whatever, but for now, vote Biden if you want the world to at least survive the next four years semi recognizably.
Watch Biden supporters lash out at communists and muslims if Biden fails to get reelected, rather than looking at the horrendous position the Democrats have taken.
I fucking hate that the only other option is a fascist tyrant with designs on overthrowing our government.
deleted by creator
I deleted this comment because I realized I don’t actually wanna take part in an extremely tribal ethno-religious debate. I’ll just say the following things everyone should agree on:
- Any government anywhere that holds one ethnicity or religion above another is fundamentally wrong and oppressive
- Everyone who minds their own business has a right to be safe from violence
- Maximizing good things and minimizing bad things is good, obviously. But this also applies to voting.
When all you want is for Trump to win, but your only winning strategy in the playbook is what Reagan did to fuck over Carter back in 1980. Gotta drive those social media vibes and it worked once, right?
but your only winning strategy in the playbook is what Reagan did to fuck over Carter back in 1980
Netanyahu 🤝Ayatollah Khomeini
🤝 = helping US fascists win so their own brand of fascism can continue unopposed
Aiding genocide really isn’t a good look. It’d be nice if the current administration didn’t. Also, threatening the ICC with sanctions reflects rather poorly.
Cool. Agreed. Spending all day churning out memes about it sounds like a job though, huh? Wonder if it pays well.
memes pay? i just thought it was free therapy. yelling into the void, taking a mental shit, etc
It’s all just optics. Everything is just ‘bad optics’.
🎵 look on the bright side of genocide 🎶
bad optics
That explains all the down votes on your hot takes.
If I cared about downvotes i’d still be on reddit.
Reagan? Hell, hEr EmAiLz and Pizza pedos is the same strategy. That was just yesterday, apparently.
I don’t need to sleuth through Biden’s emails to see he’s in complete willful denial of Israel’s genocide. Wait that’s not fair, I suppose there’s still a question about Israel’s intent… Complete willful denial of Isreal’s war crimes. That’s been well established, right?
So you’re saying you have all the information then.
Right.
Idk, how much information is enough to make a determination on whether Israel is committing war crimes? Certainly not much more, if the ICC is already pursuing arrest warrants
Let’s take it as a given. You’re saying you know all the reasons the US administration has to still support Israel. Don’t even need to look.
You Do. Not. Know. I’m not saying I know, I’m not saying they’re good reasons. I’m saying it’s such a dense and complex political issue that people study it for their whole lives, entire consultancies exist to support it, and a server full of recent graduates who want to support trump saying they know it all are full of shit.
If only someone was pushing them to articulate their reasons for defending the war crimes that are objectively happening
Not doing so is doing nothing to address the suspicion that they might be allowing them to happen because they have imperial interests in the region
It’s only complicated if you think neocolonialism is a valid means to an imperialist end. If you reject those outright it gets pretty simple
Oooh, I have this one, I have this one, citations needed just did an episode on this.
If only someone was pushing them to articulate their reasons for defending the war crimes that are objectively happening
You understand it’s not a good idea to do that for some of the reasons right? What reasons might those be? Can you think of any?
Not doing so is doing nothing to address the suspicion that they might be allowing them to happen because they have imperial interests in the region
“Address the suspicion”? To have a democratic western-friendly foothold in the heart of the oil countries? You need to hear that reason that is so public it’s a cliche? What other ‘imperial interests’ are there? Exploiting labor or something? Setting up cotton plantations in Israel? I’m not suspecting those, but hey surprise me.
It’s only complicated if you think neocolonialism is a valid means to an imperialist end. If you reject those outright it gets pretty simple
I think you know you’re reaching with this one but ok. Let’s use “1. The policy or practice of a wealthy or powerful nation in extending its influence into a less developed one, especially in exploiting that nation’s resources.” unless you want to argue some finer nuance with ‘neocolonialism’. Why do you think Israel is ‘less developed’? What resources is the US exploiting that isn’t the ‘democratic foothold in the middle east’?
An “imperialist end” huh boy that does sound bad, what end would that be? Preventing eternal war between eternally sworn enemies in a gas station the rest of the world uses? Probably not what you were going for - yours probably has the word genocide in it I bet.
So if it’s so simple - you write the check. What’s your simple solution? Lemme save you the time complaining about it; you’ll say cut off all aid to Israel, I’ll point out Bibi has specifically promised that won’t stop him and then I’ll point out that russia would love to buy some more Israel and you’ll either love that idea or pretend it doesn’t matter or - hey maybe you have the answer, you’re the super genius person the world has been waiting for to solve this problem. But I doubt it.
And as far as some “Fake nuance to arguments”, I’m not saying that’s not a thing, I’m saying prove it. Gimme the simple version you’ve got all printed up on colorful paper. What is it? Is it genius? Is it feasible? Is it even coherent?
Tik Tok or whatever needs to start teaching the children the actual history of the US so they realize we don’t get to vote for not killing children in this country. Fewer children, sure. And we might even pretend to be sad about it.
But if you don’t want to vote for child killing you’re gonna have to move because no matter who you vote for it’s going to happen in your name.
You guys are playing with fire
Public education has failed us all.
LESSER OF TWO EVILS The republicans are also pro genocide. Shut up Ivan!
@PugJesus@lemmy.world cough cough
Democrats still use reddit and subscribe to worldnews. That’s the only reason I can think off.
