No, you dont understand. All the historical records of that period I’ve seen dont have black people doing things.
What do you mean fantasy movies from the 80s aren’t historical records?
Also we have rapiers from the 16th century, but firearms(13 hundreds) haven’t been invented.
It got a little too real towards the end.
quarter pounder already sweating
One of Arthur’s knights is literally from Africa
Granted he was portrayed as having vitiligo instead of just being biracial (his dad was a white guy who was a famous traveling knight)
Point still stands though, the historians of the day themselves literally saw nothing weird about that other than “oh yeah this cool guy came to the court from Africa too. His armor is a bit fancy and decorative but he swears it’s a symbol of the pride his Queen wanted to project for his country.”
There’s also this guy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriaen
Moriaen is quite interesting because it’s a story very much from the medieval period that demonstrates both literal racism (though not quite our modern interpretation) and that the moral lesson is don’t be a racist…
To Other Christians.
and that the moral lesson is don’t be a racist
But is he a building?
I always found his descriptions very funny, or, not really the description itself, but the thought process of the original storytellers it reveals.
“Well there’s people with light skin and people with dark skin, so when they mix… The baby looks like… A cow?”
Although, now I actually wonder, did they know better and this was just something to make Feirefiz stand out?
What happens when your one black friend also happens to have Vitiligo and has a mischievous streak for people who ask if everyone in Africa looks like him
Correct me if I’m wrong but you mean Feirefiz? Who is a Saracen knight who attends a feast held by King Arthur and not one of Arthur’s knights?
I wouldn’t refer to Wolfram von Eschenbach as a historian either.
When I try to upvote a second time, nothing happens.
Let me help you then…
There was a lot of black people in medevial europe. But conservatives are trying to erase history while claiming that it’s “the left” who is changing it.
Also, people from the Mediterranean routinely traveled to Africa, and vice versa. It wasn’t all the time but it was common. It’s like traveling between the US and Latin America. They’re different areas of the world but so close that mixing is impossible to avoid. Sicily has a measurable amount of African heritage.
Before the Caliphates happened and christendom responded by creating the north south division, it was entirely unreasonable to view any part of the Mediterranean as distinct from the greater cultural whole aside from specifics about who specifically was living where at what time.
In fact Islamic empires regularly had an irredentist idea about their right to dominate the Mediterranean granted by being the true inheritors of the Roman Empire (especially after they took Istanbul)
Even in that time of division though, the typical Venetian had far more in common with the Typical Tunisian than they did with the typical Dane. Could even be part of how the “Protestant World” ended up looking so similar to a map of “the parts of Europe that were the least integrated into the Mediterranean core of Catholicism’s historical forming grounds and institutions”
The comparison to modern travel is a bit off though… The vast, VAST, majority of humanity would never travel further than a few villages over in their entire lifetime. The ‘mixing’ of cultures isn’t nearly as pronounced as you’re suggesting. Consider that even medieval “France” was made up of over 6 distinct cultures with often different languages.
I wonder what “a lot” means for you
Would a pretty large portion of Spain count for you?
Not for most part of Europe, no.
You don’t believe Spain is part of Europe, or you’re insisting that their comment must mean something beyond it literally said?
Because their comment was ultimately just about the fact that there was more than enough contact between Africa and Europe for random black people to be Arthurian knights or whatever. And that’s just a fact.
This might really grind your gears: There were even black Vikings.
There’s evidence of Viking slave raids and trading expeditions in the Mediterranean, specifically on the North African and Southern Spanish coasts, not to mention all the contact they had with Byzantium.
So, yes, there were a lot of black people in medieval Europe. Just not as a notable percentage of the total population outside of Southern Spain, but in the sense that even today a couple thousand people is still a lot of people.
I’m saying Spain having Moors doesn’t really warrant saying Medieval Europe (as a whole) had “a lot of black people” imo.
So, yes, there were a lot of black people in medieval Europe. Just not as a notable percentage of the total population outside of Southern Spain, but in the sense that even today a couple thousand people is still a lot of people.
Just not as a notable percentage of the total population
Indeed. A couple of thousand today is definitely not a sensible metric for “a lot”, since that’s an incredible tiny population compared to overall.
And I’m saying they didn’t say that. Because they didn’t.
You’re saying that, because you’re invested for some reason in black people not being on screens in a fictional world.
It’s just when someone says there was a lot of black people in Medieval Europe it does peak ones interest because there really wasn’t by how you’d first think of what “a lot” means.
You’re saying that, because you’re invested for some reason in black people not being on screens in a fictional world.
It can be a bit funny and seem inaccurate is all. If someone wants to put in black people to such setting or whites to Ancient Chinese setting or whatever then by all means. It just might not accurately represent the typical situation at the time.
Not in medieval England, or other Northern European countries. They existed but they very much stood out. And most fantasy settings tend to be northern European.
It would be fucking cool to see a medieval Spanish style fantasy setting though.
Not in medieval England, or other Northern European countries.
Objectively false.
Please define “a lot”, for the claim that in Northern Europe or England there was a lot of black people.
I’ve often thought that it is odd that anyone can be frustrated about the race of Disney characters and actors. Like most of Disney’s stories are just tales passed across cultures through time. They are literally made up stories and the point is that the story changes as time and culture changes
Which one are they talking about?
I think they’re referring to medieval fantasy films in general?
They are characterizing patterns seen across various medieval inspired fictional works, ranging from historic but not really, to full on fantasy inspired by medieval Europe.
I mean in most cases it would make it even less accurate yeah
No, most historical settings had some non zero number of black people.
If you’re passing them off as just regular people nbd in that setting then yeah that’d be inaccurate.
Then again, plopping in random white people into an Ancient Chinese setting would be pretty inaccurate too, even though there might’ve been “some non zero number” of whites over there at the time. Or in a random crowd shot of Nazi soldiers you plop in a few black soldiers. Certainly existed, but while funny it does make it seem inaccurate (and silly imo).
I see somebody used Gemini image generation…
It’s all about diversity in my Nazi soldier representation. The Asian woman was top tier decision from Gemini
Ancient China did have a lot of Central Asian and Turkic white people. Red hair, blue eyes and all. They just weren’t European whites.
I think the implication of European whites was clear from the comment though
“Most historical settings”
Roman sure, especially as you get closer to Africa but nonzero elsewhere also
Middle ages, mediæval and renaissance almost certainly limited to higher nobility households either as nobles or “interesting” servants or major trading ports, especially closer to Africa.
The chances of a mediæval serf in a germanic country not looking northern Europe, or Mediterranean at a huge stretch, are functionally zero though, as anyone who came with the Romans will have been long dead with their genetics widely dispersed, and anyone who came over recently would likely be in an urban area, with marriage or higher level employment being their only chance to end up in a rural area.
If you mean what I think you mean, then you’re being down voted because your phrasing isn’t clear. I interpreted your comment to mean that removal any of dark skinned characters would often make the depiction less historically accurate, due to their historical presence as a minority of some sort across much of medieval Europe. If so, I agree that is amusingly ironic.
I’m saying that depicting black people as a normal feature of Medieval Europe would be huge stretch. Whether that should stop people from doing so, I don’t really care about that. Accuracy isn’t exactly the only thing to consider in such situations.
