So there was a bit of a heated discussion recently on the topic of “anti-white” or “reverse” racism and we (some of the mods) figured we would clarify some rules for this community:
- “White people” is a very vague term. Having low expectations of people in the imperial core is understandable for someone in the Global South, but it’s better to be specific. Saying “I’m racist against white people” when you mean “I don’t trust the average person in <insert imperialist country>” is going to cause misunderstandings
- People who were racist in the past are not necessarily racist in the present. Many of us were liberals before becoming Marxists, and there’s a significant overlap between liberals and racists
- No matter your ethnicity, don’t use terms like “subhuman” or “orc” to describe yourself and your group; it may make others uncomfortable
- Don’t call for violence (particularly against ethnic groups, but it’s best to avoid it in general so the instance doesn’t get in trouble)
- Stick to Lemmygrad’s rules of good-faith discussion
that’s all, folks
Shifting the topic from anti-capitalism to anti-“insert gender/race/colour/nationality/other biological/natural-born traits here” is just helping the capitalists.
Capitalists are happy to incite division based on anything, even ideology, this helps to keep the exploited divided and not a threat to their rule, which is what happens if people keep bickering about issues like the ones in question.
I’m saying this also as a reminder that capitalists will allow anti-capitalist ideology to exist, to a certain degree, because anti-capitalist can mean anything from Marxism to anarchism or worse. More time spent on debating the right path is less time spent on putting theory into practice, which is more time for capitalism to live on.
Division is what capitalists employ to break the unity of the proletariat, which is why they emphasize individualism and demonize collectivism. Capitalists want a monopoly on unity and democracy, a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie rather than the proletariat.
This is not to say that we should all forget the wrongdoings of certain people and groups and join up in fake-unity, but instead hold on to those thoughts, and keep in mind the fundamental enemy that is capitalism.
capitalists will allow anti-capitalist ideology to exist, to a certain degree
You see this with fascism, which is in many ways pretends to genuine anti-capitalism, and so ends up capturing a lot of well-meaning people whenever it takes power.
Fascism is just ultra-capitalism, and they loveeeeee capitalism, that’s why capitalists allow it to exist.
can’t updoot enough 🏆
It’s important to always remember why we hate the “white men” and see them as evil, some seem to forget that it’s about historical and hierarchal issues, not inherit faults with skin color and lack of spice in food.
A lot of pale ethnic groups that got nothing to do with colonialism or were even victims of colonialism sometimes get lumped with white people hate because of this, which is hurtful ig.
I think there would be a benefit to introducing a new term that describes the ruling class of imperial core entities and their populace without generalizing based on skin color, similar to “zionist” maybe. Also, it’s gotta be hip fr fr.
Edit: oh yeah, and white people in the imperial core are also not the source of the problem obviously. I don’t know why I forgot to write about that. @ComradePupIvy@lemmygrad.ml wrote better than I could ever do read their reply.
Part of the issue is lumping in the populace, as if they can not be educated or join in the revolutionary cause. Even Fidel Castro, said and I quote “In Cuba we have never cultivated hatred against the American people or blamed them for the aggressions perpetrated by the governments of that country. That would have run contrary to our political doctrines and our internationalist conscience, both well-proven throughout many years, and increasingly rooted in our ideas.” We are communists, sure we struggle aganst the capitalist class, and aganst imperalism, but we should not stoop so low as to condemn entire groups of people just because of where they are from. To quote Castro once more "“The Revolution’s work is not limited to material work, it has worked on people’s consciousness, on their soul, preparing the human being as the human being of tomorrow, of the future, should be, and fighting against the lies, fighting against the dirtiest and gross propaganda, fighting against blockade and fighting against the harassment that tries to weaken the Revolution, to weaken its morale, its consciousness”. we cannot do that if we demonize groups of people for traits they cannot control.
Hell, Castro is objectively white with how his family were wealthy landowners directly from Spain. Whiteness is such a meaningless distinction.
Zionist refers to a follower or adherent to the ideology of Zionism. It’s meaning (besides as a dog whistle by some Neo-Nazis) isn’t in reference to someone being more in occupied Palestine or being Jewish.
Yeah, perfect term since saying “fuck zionists” won’t include someone who I didn’t mean to say “fuck you” to
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It’s not just ruling classes and racists that they’re referring to when they say white people. I think they’re expressing prejudice against white supremacy and western chauvinism. A lot of people in western countries who wouldn’t consider themselves racists still have beliefs that are white supremacists and chauvinist. Lumping people together like that is probably not inclusive behavior though.
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Ya there are lots of words for that: sell out, uncle tom, traitor, etc. I think the most neutral term for that is opportunist haha.
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My bad, I’m not really good with wording and I could’ve explained better. Obviously I don’t lump the average white person with their ruling class that would would go against communist beliefs.
Sometimes solidarity is earned. If global north people needs the solidarity from the south, they not just be some kind of leftist that asks for health care and high wages but should be thoroughly anti-imperialist. But that does not give us the permission to use the racialised language to cuss at global north proles. But the harsh criticism should not be blunted.
There are communists in Sweden. Good and honest people. So there are in Norway, Finland, Canada and the USA; in Belgium, the UK, Denmark and the Netherlands too.
Be kind. L’Internationale sera le genre humain.
I’ve been gone for a few days, what did I miss?
Nothing, really. Good on you for touching grass.
I’m very relieved reading that. In some places in the past this topic was often really hot and incredibly USA-centric.
Man, how do I always miss all the drama
one part good timeing, one part being willing to be offline I guess
Don’t know if I’d call it good timing, since back on reddit I always seemed to be around for the recurring sex work/porn argument. (Which granted, sometimes seemed to take place one to two times a week).
missed ALL of this flamewar and only seeing the tail end of it feels like seeing the 2nd half of a looney tunes joke, im sure the setup & punchline was insane but now its just like “Damn”
insane is a word one could use for what happened
Going though it makes you feel exactly how Willie Coyote feels after having everything blows up in his face.
Thanks for clarifying it and intervening. I can absolutely understand why some comrades may have a generally very negative attitude to “white people” but some of the stuff I saw in some threads was really off the charts, and I’ve seen at least one claim that was pretty much akin to the demand of ethnic cleansings. I’m glad that I am organized in real-life and that my ML bubble is not limited to internet discourse.
Can we still say ‘Amerikkkrakker’?
just make sure to use six K’s or you’ll get a sternly worded letter
It’s basically just “gringo” but longer
Well, gringo doesn’t have to be American or white at all. It’s usage (at least among the Spanish-speakers I know) seems to be much more akin to the term foreigner. I would definitely see gringo as having a different meaning than “white” or a word referring to people in the USA like Yankee or Statesian.
I never heard gringo being used in meaning other than “white Usian” (or occasionally their also Usian PoC lackeys), but i’m not from there, so…
I’ve certainly heard Caucasian Europeans called gringos before. I think the usage of the word gringo (at least my understanding) is that it can be used in radically different ways dependent upon the region as well. (For example I have heard people from Argentina called that.) I am from the USA but at least I have heard it used that way here in the past. It is probably depended on the area though.
Caucasian Europeans
As in, Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis etc? /s
I think we should stop using nonsensical US terms.
it can be used in radically different ways dependent upon the region as well
I guess.
As in, Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis etc? /s
Reminds me of a scene in Evelyn Waugh’s The Loved One, where the main character, an Englishman working in Hollywood, goes to see about funeral arrangements for his recently deceased friend and has this conversation with the receptionist.
“I presume the Loved One was Caucasian?”
“No, why did you think that? He was purely English.”
“English are purely Caucasian, Mr Barlow. This is a restricted park. The Dreamer has made that rule for the sake of the Waiting Ones. In their time of trial they prefer to be with their own people…”
Fair point about the usage of the term Caucasian. I will keep that in mind. I am just saying that this is my personal experience of the usage of the term.
I thought gringo meant someone who doesn’t speak Spanish. Particularly if they can only speak English and are/act like a white person.
I’ve heard it used to broadly refer to people from western countries and also nth-gen Latin Americans who don’t speak any Spanish. But that’s it (from my experience).
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I believe that “liberal” or “capitalist” covers those bases and are much more applicable, while avoiding problematic labeling, confusion, and alienation.
Fawcs. Pronounced ‘f***s’.
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I think the culprit was me 😁 but calm down I was wrong a bit. I do listen to Brian Becker and Ben Norton.
Thank you, the arguments going on in that thread were unbearable to read lol
Kind of sad after reading through all that.
What did I miss?
You missed quite a bit, or one thread, depends on how you look at it.
