The IDF’s solution to bank robbers holding people hostage would be to blow up the bank
When that mass shooter was in Uvalde they should have droned the school.
Better analogy would be the killer in uvalde using a kid as a human shield while also shooting into the other classrooms trying to kill other kids.
Do you shoot back or do you sit around like the cops did and wait till the killer gets bored, runs out of ammo, or runs out of victims.
Just look up how many thousands of rockets and mortars Hamas has launched at seemingly random targets in Israel since October 7th.
Better analogy would be the killer in uvalde using a kid as a human shield while also shooting into the other classrooms trying to kill other kids.
Sure, and then you bomb the school to kill them all. Also bomb all the surrounding buildings just in case.
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The movie Blazing Saddles has a scene where the protagonists threatens himself as hostage. It worked. Movie Clip Not Censored https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTNJUjsNKVk&t=153s
Look, we all know that if Israel wanted to kill two million people in Gaza, no one in the world could stop them. Not saying it’s okay that even 0.5% have been killed because that is still a horrifying number. But the idea that they are indiscriminately blowing up every single building is just theatre of the absurd.
Looking at the demographics of the casualties, what suggests the IDF is targeting Hamas in any meaningful way? They’re pretty squarely in line with the Palestinian population broadly - that certainly suggests the killing is indiscriminate to me.
That’s probably only because they want to move in, so they can’t wreck the place too bad.
The arrogance is amazing.
That tiny country could be destroyed by a brisk wind and two battles with bad luck.
The “rockets” you’re referencing aren’t the threat you’re trying to invoke. How many Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets ever much less since October 7th? Maybe if Israel didn’t have a concentration camp outside of their city walls they wouldn’t have to worry about the threat of retribution?
Better analogy is the Uvalde shooter also starved and killed kids in the school for generations. Then some of the starving children started throwing sharpened pencils.
The “rockets” you’re referencing aren’t the threat you’re trying to invoke.
So the rockets that killed
500100+ people at al-Ahli hospital aren’t that big of a threat?https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/26/gaza-hospital-blast-evidence-israel-hamas/
Do go on…
Answer the question. How many Israeli’s have died since October 7th from rocket attacks? Making unsubstantiated claims to show how dangerous the rockets are isn’t evidence of anything.
The claims are substantiated. See the link in my response.
The weapon was a misfired Hamas rocket.
The 100+ victims were Palestinians who were at the hospital (parking lot I believe?)
Those same rockets are being fired into Israel (Nearly or over) 10,000 since the conflict began.
Hamas isn’t trying to tickle Israelis with those rockets. See the effect one of those rockets has when they hit a populated area.
If you want to be taken seriously answer the question. Why is that so hard?
Just look up how many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians Israel has killed in the last 30 years. Israel is the bad guy here, it’s not debatable.
the bad guy
Why does there have to be a singular “the” bad guy?
And why the need to lump a huge group together to lay that blame?
The Israeli government and Hamas both share the blame for all of this, among others.
As is too common in the world, while a relatively small group deserves the blame, many more, on both sides, suffer the consequences.
Because one side is attempting genocide. That makes them the bad guy, regardless of whatever they claim Hamas did to them. Claiming Hamas is as bad as the Israeli government is the same as claiming the Jews were equally at fault with the Nazis.
Hamas’s goal is explicitly to genocide Israel. They just don’t have the resources.
Where have they ever claimed to want to genocide Israeli people? That’s just a lie Zionist use to justify their own atrocities. It has no basis in fact.
Are you aware that Hamas’s charter has the explicit objective of the complete eradication of the Israeli state? The PLO is also not very different in this aspect. So where do you get this “one side is attempting genocide” talking point from?
Yeah, groups tend to want an end to the group genociding them. I get it from the actual facts, such as the 10 to 1 discrepancy in palestinian deaths vs Israeli.
That’s such a disingenuous comparison. The end of the Israeli state means an end to the apartheid system upon which the state is built. It does not mean the genocide of Israeli civilians. Claiming otherwise is just propaganda meant to justify Israel’s own campaign of ethnic cleansing.
No but you see, if you’re homeless and the authorities tell you to take shelter in my house, and then you start killing my family members to try and take over the house… if I defend my house… I’m the bad guy bc you where homeless before.
Just look up how many thousands of rockets and mortars Hamas has launched at seemingly random targets in Israel since October 7th.
Now, if only both parties would just cease firing for a moment. Has anyone thought of that? And if: has any governmet refused to offer/accept such ceasing of firing? /s
If you think you can get Hamas, an organization who states goal is to kill every Israeli, to agree to an abide by a cease fire, go for it. Their current track record speaks volumes to the contrary
Yeah, it’s a better idea give Hamas new recluits /s
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Good job dehumanizing “the enemy”. That way, you can legitimize any war crime. If you think that Hamas is such a non-human entity, why are the hostages not already considered dead?
an organization who states goal is to kill every Israeli
[Citation needed]
To be clear: I’m definetly not rooting for the authoritarian regime of Hamas. Their leaders should drown in the blood they spilled.
*not
Oopsie. Thank you
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If that were the case, Gaza would be a flat parking lot right now.
Have you seen photos of Gaza?
Yup, I have.
Ok cool so you are retracting your comment then sounds good.
Large swaths of it kind of are
So you think that had the US military known about the 9/11 planes 5 minutes earlier they should have still just let them hit the WTS?
Shit you’re right, I forgot that banks and hospitals are exactly the same as a plane headed towards a building
…uh… weren’t you the one who made the terrorists = bank robbers metaphor?
Bank robbers aren’t going to murder thousands if they pull off the heist. Blowing up the 9/11 planes would’ve saved a lot of people, indiscriminately killing hostages to get at the robbers is just evil. Israel is doing the latter, and I can’t think of any way that killing Palestinian civilians is a remotely justifiable or effective way of saving Israelis or anyone else
So you are criticizing your OWN metaphor?
Or you’re suggesting that Hamas are not terrorists? Or are you one of those weird denialists who think there were not 1200 Israelis killed in the Oct 7 attacks?
I’m so confused.
Hamas has continued indiscriminately firing thousands of rockets, displacing hundreds of thousands of Israelis who fear for their lives, and has promised to repeat the attacks if left to their devices. So it’s a terror group that has killed, they are killing, and they will kill again.
I agree bank robbers is a bad metaphor, but it’s YOUR metaphor.
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I assume this comment relates to the people displaced during the war of 1948. A war which was started by the arabs living in Israel as a way to oppose the u.n. decision of a two state solution (first but not last time this happens). Those displaced settlers?
You seem to confuse easy, let me explain. I wasn’t the one bringing up 9/11 in the first place, that was never part of my metaphor. It was a dumb and irrelevant thing of the other person to bring up for reasons I’ve already explained. I was saying the IDF would kill hostages rather than trying to defuse a hostage situation without killing everyone, as has happened countless times. Was that simple enough for you or do you need the 3rd grade version?
Yeah no, the person behind the human shield wants to kill you and your family and is actively trying to accomplish said goal.
Yeah it’s pretty much the equivalent of the trolley-problem in real life.
The question is how many casualties are “valid” before the cost is too high - and that’s just a morally impossible choice to make prefectly
People that pretend it’s a black and white question and that either pretend the IDF is 100% wrong or the IDF is 100% right are just ignoring one side if the issue completely.
In general I’d say the IDF is more often right than wrong in this conflict but they obviously fucked up, too - but at least for them it’s not the intention to cill civilians other than for the people they try to actually get to
Shooting hellfire missiles at crowds from helicopters, just a regular Thursday oopsie daisy.
The people killing human shields are just as shitty as the people using human shields. Both are terrorists.
Would be the best for the first asshole not to take human shields to begin with.
I’m sorry I can’t hear you over a settlement being bulldozed. Wait a second for the bulldozers to stop.
Oh silly me…they don’t stop.
Are you trying to justify using human shields?
I literally never said that. Youre doing the bad faith thing.
Friend, I’masking you because I was baffled what your comment had to do with anything. I still am. Could you explain the relevancy?
You’re not wrong, but that’s not what’s happening, and it’s still not an excuse.
but that’s not what’s happening
What do you mean?
I mean we’re in a situation where civilians are being used as human shields. It would be nice if we weren’t, but that’s not what’s happening.
I mean we’re in a situation where civilians are being used as human shields
Because Hamas took human shields. They could have not taken them. But yes, it happened and it’s not like it can be taken back now.
And it still doesn’t justify IDF massacring thousands of Palestinians.
Can we stop using the word terrorist for something that it obviously not terrorism? Terrorist use terrorism to strike fear into the population of a more powerful state and hope for and overreaction that would play into their cards. I can only see one terrorist organization here. But, the IDF is that overreacting oppenent.
You’re right. Starving out civilians and bombing their homes doesn’t make IDF terrorists. It makes them war criminals.
That would be a much more correct term.
And so you’re justified in killing an unlimited amount of children to get to them.
Again, it’s the trolley problem. No one is saying unlimited amount.
It sure fuckin looks like Israel is saying “unlimited amount”
By what statement? By what action? “Unlimited amount” would be to not alert ahead of an attack on northern Gaza and catch Hamas commanders unguarded while destroying buildings with people still in them. What they did is provide a notice weeks ahead of the invasion of “we’re gonna invade you, run”. That’s literally the best thing they could’ve done in that situation humanitarianly, and the most ridiculous thing to do militarily.
Israel has stopped warning people. No text messages and no calls (not that there’s power to receive them) and no roof knocking.
They’re bombing the safe zones. They’re bombing the evacuation routes. They’re bombing UN schools and shelters. More children are dying per day in this conflict than any conflict in recent history. Thousands and thousands of children are dead or buried under rubble.
Stop defending genocide. You are on the wrong side of history and we will remember.
“You warned everyone weeks ahead but you stopped doing so now so you’re wrong”?!?!?!?!?
Are you serious? What more do you want from them? They did everything they could to alert everyone in Gaza that they were coming and the need to evacuate.
They’re making their own safe routes, transferring thousands of civilians through them. You really can’t expect more from an army, when its purpose is killing its enemies. Looks like they waste lots of time doing non-killing.
And the number of victims is terrible, but it’s the price of war, and it looks like the Palestinian leaders are more than happy to accept those numbers. War is a 2 sided thing, and you only blame one - and the one which is doing literally all it can to prevent needless death. While the other side, which you think is just, is parading dead bodies and advocating for true genocide “from the river to the sea”. What peace can there be with that kind of leadership.
History will remember this war like they remember WW2. Did Britain kill civilian germans? Lots. The number of german killed vs the number of British killed is humongous. Are they remembered as “merciless killers”? No. Because they were fighting objective evil.
So is Israel.
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They’re bombing the safe zones you lying shit. No where is safe. The goal is to make Gaza uninhabitable so they are forced to flee the country and then Israel can annex the strip and make it part of Israel proper. Multiple politicians and government agencies have openly said this!
Ethnic cleansing through mass killing. Genocide.
Also? A multiethnic democracy, a free Palestine, from the river to the sea is not genocide. Making Israeli Jews into Palestinians is not genocide. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, which is a settler colony made from a British imperial mandate and it doesn’t have a right to exist.
Saying things like “worse” is just picking sides for no reason.
There’s a point where you can stop measuring the cuntiness and just accept that they’re both well over the threshold of being a cunt. There’s no limit to the size of the cunt bucket. There’s no queue to get in.
They’re both cunts and the world (and especially all the civilians in the local vicinity) would be better off without them.
Criticize both is the only opinion I care reading these days. Anyone that says one side worse than other, immidiate disinterest from me. Correct opinion for me is everyone is an asshole.
Especially since there is no end to the actual conflict when there isn’t something done on both sides of the conflict.
There absolutely are degrees. We decided to name it the “Holocaust” because what the Nazis did was hella cunty.
There are degrees when it happens to you or something you like. There are simplifications when you don’t give much fuck about.
- Most centrists I know, including me previously.
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If Israel is under attack, does not have the resources to take these buildings with less collateral damage, and the international community will not send any military aid besides fucking bombs, then what is Israel supposed to do?
Answer: And write this down.
NOTHING.
Then give Palestinians equal rights, jobs, full citizenship. Treat them as brothers. Equals. Treating people like humans isn’t difficult if you try.
Feel free to reference this answer the next time you have that question.
Cute like a kid going “why can’t everyone just be friends?”
Don’t get me wrong, I wish this could work, I wish half of Israel weren’t ready to kill all Arabs and vice versa.
But sadly hate blinds, if not most then a lot of people.
It really is that easy. We choose our emotions. I’m not saying people shouldn’t defend themselves. But violence should be the last option, not the first. There can be a world where Jews and Palestinians coexist. But it has to be chosen, not mandated or forced.
Yeah, but a big part of humanity does not see it that way.
Also the video is hilarious XD
This is the most retarded possible take imaginable. Nobody in the region wants that either.
Hamas and their supporters, of which polling shows is a large majority in the strip right now, is openly calling for the murder of Jews.
You wouldn’t have peace if you magically granted equal rights to the people who refuse to acknowledge the existence of the country that would be granting them those rights, you’d have millions of dead Jews.
You either don’t want to understand that or you just want to see dead Jews.
The thing I hate most about Israel apologists is the way that, for them, history always starts with the latest action against the country, totally ignoring its egregious actions all the way back to when it was founded by genicidal terrorist groups, who then became its official military.
Gee, ya think that maybe the support for Hamas doesn’t stem from its anti-Jewish stance? Maybe there’s something else going on that perhaps the people might be reacting to? Also, who created Hamas?
I think most Israel supporters start the clock in 1948… When 5 Arab Nations attacked them simultaneously. Israel has been under attack ever since, so the claim that it’s the past 75 years is utterly bullshit. Even Hamas has said this has nothing to do with the conditions of the strip and is because they want to wipe out Israel entirely… same thinking as day 1.
Indeed, as always, starting the clock with the blowback, casting Israel as the feckless victim, omitting the Nakba, and everything that happened in 1947 and earlier.
If you’re able to learn about the Nakba, then you’re more than capable of learning about the hundreds of years of pogroms and attacks on Jews in the region. The list for the town of sfat is interesting.
But nah, ignore the 900,000 Jews forced out of their homes in the region and focus on the 200,000 Arabs. Sounds exactly like what we’re seeing all around, the elimination of Jewish history of the region. Good thing the history is documented and ain’t going anywhere.
Yes, I can learn that even the events in Sfat/Safed were part of an escalating cycle of recriminations. So as you helpfully point out, meeting violence with violence has been going on for hundreds of years, and has solved exactly nothing. As I have said in a separate comment chain, it will just continue to generate atrocity and pain until one of the sides—neither of which is righteous, let’s be clear—decides to take responsibility for its past and starts the slow, complicated process of deescalation.
And if your gut reaction to that truth is, “they would never do that,” well, go ahead, turn the crank once more, see how it goes.
Welcome to first grade, and I want you to know that everyone here is your friend, and you should always be nice.
Well, I’m old. And it hasn’t failed me yet. When it does fail me, is when I meet toxic people with negativity. I generally limit time with them.
So even you, my old friend, admit there are some impressively toxic and shitty people out there.
Yes. But I try not to ridicule or look down on them, as many want to do. They are victims of material circumstances. Sometimes they don’t even understand their intentions. I have weaknesses, I acknowledge and live with mine, while others project theirs outward.
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You don’t ask the psychopath stranger with a shotgun who installed in your living room to leave politely. Specially as he continuously moves his relatives armed to the teeth into other different rooms of your house and killing your family one by one. Israel started this beef in the XIX century with their Zionists BS. Now the people who were already living there are gagged, and bound in the basement. But we are supposed to feel bad for the psychopath when the hostage kicks and try to defend themselves. Hamas are terrorist monsters. But the IDF hands aren’t free of blood. There are people on Israeli media calling for the genocide of all Palestinian people, this is just as bad as anti-semite Nazis during WWII. The fact that people can’t see the hypocrisy is part of the problem. Israel could stop the apartheid state today. But they won’t, because genocide is the plan, violence is the plan, division and aggression is the plan.
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But that’s not what we’re talking about in this thread.
This level of sociopathic compartmentalization is concerning. It is 100% relevant to what we are talking about.
is like saying the Allied bombers in WWII who killed German civilians working in factories “aren’t free of blood” in comparison with the fucking Nazis.
It is, the US dropped two nuclear bombs over japan after firebombing it for a year and killing million of civilians. They do have blood in their hands, there’s no such thing as a righteous or just war. That’s the worst legacy of the mythology of the WWII.
You’re oversimplifying this shit in your head to get off of the idea of someone killing Muslim people. That’s just weird man.
That’s a lot of whataboutism. You can only pack so much into one argument, see. But constantly invoking WW2 nukes into every argument just shows how limited your logic is.
That was a good read/ explanation and funny. Thanks for making me laugh.
They do have blood in their hands, there’s no such thing as a righteous or just war.
Lol
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Hamas literally exists because Israel and the Palestinian Authority were brokering a 2 state solution, and Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. As a response to this movement, Hamas seized power in Gaza and canceled elections forever.
When Israel moved to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia, Hamas attacked in October to try to change public opinion of Saudis against Israel.
You’ve got your blame precisely backwards.
My answer still stands. If the US took the 4 billion they give to Israel and instead distributed aid to Palestinians, it would dramatically improve their lives and create the material conditions for their society to flourish. Sanction Israel like the world did South Africa to get rid of the apartheid state. The answer is equality and standard of living.
Your problem is framing. If we can only frame solutions through violence, then don’t be surprised when violence continues. If it is framed through the lens of improving the material conditions of the oppressed, it solves the need for violence. Happy, comfortable people don’t resort to violence.
Edit: Something tells me you’re not gonna like my answer, because it doesn’t involve killing Arabs.
Brotha… Hamas leader’s net worth just crossed 5B 😂
Source?
I don’t think anyone can safely say how much money they have. This article explains how they get their money, among other things, from funneling charity funds:
Thanks. That money should be seized and given back to the people. Any future aid should be administered with oversight. It can be done.
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That’s because the Palestinians were trying to de-Nazify Jordan.
Give them a break!
Totes justified. Sheesh.
You didn’t write the answer down. Just because you don’t like the answer doesn’t mean it’s not the answer. There are many ways to cross a river, but a bridge is still the best option.
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Love and empathy. You should try it. Best high you’ll ever get.
Serious answer? It’s never going to get any better until one side or the other decides to de-escalate, and that’s never going to get any easier. The long history of provocations back and forth will never unwind. Israel, being the one in the position of power, also has a greater responsibility to back off of violence. It’s either that, or continue down the path it is on to ethnic cleansing and genocide. It is on track to be one of history’s darkest ironies that the grandchildren of the people who vowed “never again” will be the people responsible for “again.”
Yeah, that’s a hard, bitter pill to swallow, when one’s instinct is for vengeance. But it’s the truth. Another hard truth is that the humans on the other side are humans. Turning the other cheek for once would utterly shock the entire world, and gain Israel immense support and good will, including from large portions of Palestine.
Is it realistic? No, it’ll never happen. But repeating the cycle of violence hasn’t ever worked, so that’s what they should do.
Turning the other cheek means what exactly in this context?
Not smash into Gaza with a wrecking-ball military response, massacring civilians. Reach out to the Palestinian Authority and moderates in Gaza to deal with the Hamas attack as a law enforcement matter. Negotiate for the release of hostages. Ask for support in this approach from the Arab nations with which it had normalized relations; continue the in-progress normalization of relations with several other nations.
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No, the Palestinian Authority is the governing body of the West Bank. It was kicked out of Gaza in 2007 after a conflict between the Islamic Hamas organization, and the secular Fatah party. It would certainly have motive to form an alliance to try to help, in order to re-establish its control of Gaza, and a large portion of the Gazan population would welcome it.
The “right of return” by people forced off of their ancestral land which is now within the borders of the State of Israel has been one of the major sticking points in the conflict, with Israel steadfastly refusing it. If it is not willing to let refugees return to their homes in its own country, then how is it fair to ask other countries to accept large numbers of refugees? There are other forms of help besides accepting refugees.
These people are fucking morons. This is unbelievable. WTF. They’re the kind of idiot who’s supporting bin Laden right now.
That’s easy… if Israel cannot exist without acting like a white supremacist settler-colonialist state, then Israel should cease to exist. No different than Apertheid-era South Africa.
That answers your question, white supremacism apologist.
In the context of your question, the correct thing to do is for Israel to utilize scalpel-accurate precision attacks at Hamas leadership with clandestine highly experienced embedded intelligence agents, careful consideration of civilian casualties, GPS guided munitions dropped from 6th generation command & control stealth aircraft, active camouflage stealth armor with powered mech suits, gundam/metal-gear bipedal tanks, and mind reading AI brain scanners, and trillions of dollars defense budget. Duh! You idiot.
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This bio bomb will disintegrate only the bodies of ruthless terrorists, leaving everyone else okay. Oh, but it’s magic, so you can’t see it if you’re a very smart person.
To be fair, they do have very accurate munitions. They’ve recently used them to strike many journalists and their families in their homes. Many in Gaza, but also a few in other countries. This has been the deadliest conflict for journalists in decades (because Israel deliberately targets them).
because Israel deliberately targets them
That’s literally illegal. Do you have a quote said by an Israeli government or military official that they are deliberately doing this or just spreading misinformation?
Israel definitely does have the resources to go just boots on the ground. They have more troops than Russia initially sent in to Ukraine. They could “safely” secure Gaza block by block if they wanted to.
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Oh, those poor Israelis… the west sends them bombs which Israel just have to drop on the largest concentration camp in human history.
Oh, those poor, poor Israelis.
How many resources would they need to go in with boots on the ground because it looks like they do have enough resources? (Serious question is it a dollar amount a person amount etc) If say Hamas was in an Israeli hospital and Israel didn’t have the resources to go in with boots on the ground would you find it acceptable to bomb the Israeli’s hospital? If your answer for one is yes and the other no then you don’t value Palestinians lives.
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There’s a gaping chasm
“let terrorists do whatever the fuck they want.”
and
“genocide it is, then”
Particularly when the more accurate framing would be
“oh no - the terrorist group we backed over the PLO predictably attacked us as we maintained Palestine as an open air concentration camp, spouting genocidal rhetoric - guess we’ll have to kill 'em all”.
If someone kicked you out of your home and wouldn’t let you walk on the same streets as them, what would you do? Would you cower, or would you fight back any chance you got? What if they bombed your friends and family? What if they denied you jobs? What if they denied you food and water?
What would you do?
As long as Israel exists it will be on stolen land, built on ethnic cleansing. There can never be peace in an apartheid state. No matter how many bombs they drop they will always make more enemies. There can’t be any peace on stolen land. So what should they do? Murder forever, escalate? Exterminate everyone in the region and clear it for Israel? What should Israel do if there can be no peace while it exists?
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A lot of the people being killed today are children. Do you believe that the fact that some people carry out monstrous acts justifies killing children and people completely unrelated to those acts? How many children is it worth killing to kill one monster? Can you give me a number?
Let’s say you had a magic woodchipper that you could throw babies in to and if you threw enough babies in you would get to instantly kill one terrorist. How many babies would you throw in? Is it 1 to 1? Would you throw in 10? How about kids? If they’re like 4 or 5 years old, would you push them in to the chipper to get to kill a terrorist? This is what you’re advocating when you’re justifying cutting off food and water. It’s a horrible and painful death for children who have literally no idea why they’re dying and don’t even have the capacity to understand.
So what’s the number? How many children and babies is it justifiable to murder in order to kill a single terrorist?
They’ve even been making calls to trusted civilians in the area to evacuate target buildings of civilians. It’s not going to change much, it’s basically “what they can do to avoid collateral without investing actual personnel”, and will probably be forgotten just like America’s fliers to Japanese citizens about an upcoming nuke.
It does basically dress the point that if they feel they HAVE to retaliate, they’re making what little effort they can to restrict it.
Not backing Hamas over the PLO, predictably getting their civilians killed and creating the pretext for the genocide they’re now committing would probably be a good start. How about not operating an open air concentration camp that’ll radicalise Palestinians against them?
Hamas are terrible, but this is a situation Israel has manufactured - they don’t get to cry about i the predicable consequences of their choices now.
To say “this is a situation Israel has manufactured” is a convenient gross oversimplification of the history of the region. Either you know this isn’t true and you’re just spewing misinformation or you’re not informed and speaking confidently.
A full history of the region wouldn’t fit in a post. Would you like to add relevant context to attempt to justify the ongoing genocide?
Don’t pivot. We aren’t talking about genocide. You said this “is a situation Israel has manufactured”. If you’re going to make bold statements then back them up.
I explained it, and you claimed my explanation was oversimplified without any further detail. Seems you’re the one making bold statements without backing them up.
There is an ongoing genocide - why is that not the most important part to you, and why should I care if whatever detail you claim I’ve missed doesn’t justify that genocide?
…or an I correct in thinking you’re taking this line because the genocide isn’t something you’re concerned about?
You want to talk about genocide that’s fine. You want to say this is a situation Israel has manufactured: that’s an entirely different topic. It’s not complicated.
Also, the word genocide gets thrown around very loosely these days I’ve noticed. When the allies were bombing Germany in WW2 were they committing genocide? Millions of civilians died in the bombing of dreaden. I’m not saying Israel is NOT committing genocide, because a collective argument could be made if you put all the pieces together (blockade, settlements, etc). If by genocide you mean just the occurrence of civilian casualties, then surely you will admit Hamas is also conducting genocide every time one of their rockets kills an Israeli baby. …Right?
This isn’t an explanation of what I oversimplified that would justify the genocide - it’s just dithering about the definition of genocide. I linked the UN definition in anticipation of your obviously bad-faith questions designed to diminish and distract from that genocide.
Third and final time: What did I miss in my oversimplification that would justify the genocide Israel is committing against Palestine? You say I’ve oversimplified, but haven’t made any effort whatsoever to correct the record. Why might that be?
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Oooh big man there yelling “anti-semite”. What does that mean, exactly?
I love that you can’t engage with any of the points. Just gotta get your catch phrase in.
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Funny, if you remove the “israel” from this comment you can’t even tell which side you’re talking about.
Let’s pretend
Pretend huh. Still not willing to admit it?
How many soldiers does it take to change a location to a military target?
Is it a percentage? Is it their presence at all?
Ok, does that apply to Israeli hospitals or public venues that had soldiers there as guards?
If the attack on those venues is terrorism by virtue of the civilians there, but not a legitimate military strike despite the soldiers being there, then at the very least, bombing hospitals and refugee camps is terrorism too even if a few soldiers and weapons are found.
Executing human shields is monstrous, and “look what you made me do” is the language of abusers.
Someone using something as a human shield makes it into a human shield. Requires just one.
How many soldiers does it take to change a location to a military target?
Could be as few as one. Which is why there’s zero tolerance for using such locations.
Ok, does that apply to Israeli hospitals or public venues that had soldiers there as guards?
It’s the same rule for everyone.
If the attack on those venues is terrorism by virtue of the civilians there, but not a legitimate military strike despite the soldiers being there, then at the very least, bombing hospitals and refugee camps is terrorism too even if a few soldiers and weapons are found.
There’s two related issues. Killing civilians and using civilian cover to conduct warfare. Both are despicable.
Executing human shields is monstrous, and “look what you made me do” is the language of abusers.
Right, though I’d put more blame on those, you know, using human shields. They’re the ones putting the humans between you and your enemy to begin with.
Given the demographics of those killed by Israel are squarely in line with the civilian population broadly (i.e. there’s no meaningful over-reprentation of Hamas, which we’d expect from purposeful targeted attacks against them), you’d apply your arguments consistently and defend Hamas attacking the IDF within Israel with similar civilian casualty rates (putting aside the whole national service, everyone is a combatant thing), right?
…right?
Thought not.
Why would I defend either side killing civilians…?
Maybe Israel should stop using music festival attendees as “human shields…” that would be nice.
If they were operating behind the music festival then absolutely. Nobody should be using human shields.
I was wondering why a link to BBC News didn’t have HTTPS. Well…
Last Updated: Friday, 23 April, 2004, 11:24 GMT 12:24 UK
Of course this has nothing to do with the music festival in particular but I’m guessing your point is more that they’ve at least at some point used (or “faced claims” about using) huma shields? I would’ve imagined we’d much more recent cases to make that point though.
The IDf operates behind every civilian in Israel - which means every civilian in Israel is a “human shield” for the Israeli state.
While we’re at it, we might just as well declare every 9/11 victim a US “human shield,” too.
While we’re at it, we might just as well declare every 9/11 victim a US “human shield,” too.
Frankly, Bin Laden’s justification why killing US civilians was justified sounds very similar to justifications of hard line Israeli politicians why civilian getting killed in Gaza don’t deserve any sympathy and were “asking for it”. Both boil down to, “they voted for the people in charge who do crimes against us, so they are guilty as well.”
It’s amazing how quickly contrived propaganda terms like “human shields” loses any meaning when they are flipped around on people western media hasn’t marked for genocide, eh?
The IDf operates behind every civilian in Israel - which means every civilian in Israel is a “human shield” for the Israeli state.
That’s an interesting take on it. I don’t think that’s how the idea of human shield is usually viewed. It’s usually more direct, operating from a place with civilians so you don’t get bombed or literally forcing someone to stand between you and your enemy or something.
While we’re at it, we might just as well declare every 9/11 victim a US “human shield,” too.
How exactly?
That’s an interesting take on it. I don’t think that’s how the
ideapure propaganda of human shield is usuallyvieweddeployed for the consumption of Israeli-loving white supremacists.Fixed that for you.
You don’t think Hamas has used human shields?
Again… if that is what Hamas has (supposedly) done, then there is no reason not to designate every civilian in Israel, the US or any NATO member state as “human shields” as well.
Pick your propaganda and stop being a hypocrite about it.
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Because it’s just as disingenuous and disgusting to imply as what you’re implying.
I’ll have to ask you to explain what you think I’m implying. You might’ve misunderstood me, since I don’t think I’ve said anything that could be taken for “disingenuous and disgusting”.
Whoosh!
Please explain then
No.
Coward
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Lmao what a copout
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Take some self responsibility. Try to understand it yourself. Hint: Take away the top placard.
Cowardly and pathetic copout.
I hope you can get past your hate one day. Inshallah.
the extremely flawed and utterly repugnant lack of “logic” is that,
“if using human shields works as a strategy, they will do it more often”.
“conversely, if we prove to them that using human shields is ineffective, they will stop doing it”fucking. nauseating.
I would be more willing to believe this logic if they had more proof that one, Hamas was doing this in all instances that the IDF killed civilians and two that killing Hamas through human shields was working as a way to prevent this in the future. As of now it doesn’t seem to be stopping them according to IDF so I don’t think it is valid to use that logic.
It would also help if Israel’s leadership would stop comparing Palestinians to animals and stop stealing their land. It sure feels like an excuse to justify exterminating all Palestinians
You’d think people would learn that’s not the case after years of Hamas using human shields despite Israel proving they’ll bomb a place regardless. Even if it were true by some metric, how in the fuck is the number of casualties incurred by Israel’s policy of ignoring hostages worth it? In the days since October 7th, thousands of Palestinian civilians have been killed, including many in strikes on hospitals and refugee camps determined to house Hamas personnel. The policy is fucking monstrous and evidence shows it winds up in thousands of Palestinian deaths. Don’t tell me that those stolen lives somehow prevent even more civilian deaths unless you’ve got some very strong proof that this strategy has done anything to stop Hamas from hiding behind civilians, or that the thousands of civilians massacred are worth the chance to kill a few terrorists
Edited for spelling
fucking thank you, yes, those are exactly the words i couldn’t find to express the sentiment i wish i could have stated
furthermore “you made me do this” is ABUSER RHETORIC.
as in, israel claiming that hamas “made them” slaughter civilians,
likewise, urkaine “forced” russia to invade
Who knew the Holocaust was just a preemptive strike. Hitler knew the Jews would do this to the Germans if they got power!
/S
Well if you wish to go there, there’s something to be said for how someone raised in violence can take away from their lived experience that “violence is how you raise people”, for instance how a big chunk of the baby boomer “sometimes children need to be smacked” generation did.
Sadly often, abusers turn out to have learned how to abuse people from being abused themselves; hurt people hurt people.
If someone stabbed you, though, I don’t think you’d feel mollified to learn that they themselves were victims of a stabbing themselves. The fact that they went through a trauma in the past does not give them free license to inflict that same trauma upon others.
But in light of the fact that Israel does not represent all Semitic peoples, the state of Israel has even less excuse to exhibit–practically EMBODY–the pure hypocrisy.
It’s strange, how long does it take for IDF to realize that Hamas doesn’t give a shit about civilian lives. IDF killing the human shields changes nothing for Hamas.
They sort of have, when the “human shield” is being talked about, it’s not literal kids being held up front… it’s people refrained from gunpoint from leaving the building that IDF warned they’ll shoot down soon. They give enough time to escape while monitoring the “people leaving” using drones. But not enough time is given to transfer “ammo and weapons”. Constantly monitored using drones.
Human shields are the few people that are kept there at gunpoint, and there’s no way of knowing if there are civilians in the said building. As many people are seen escaping the building.
A friend of mine who works for Battalion [redacted] told me a story the other day about an adult male (about 23) who managed to escape the building and ran towards the battalion posted close by. While he was running/escaping towards the IDF, he was being shot from the building. But he made it. I don’t know the location of the guy except he’s in Israel and chilling. But wants to stay undercover for now, hopefully the world will hear his story someday.
IDF has a lot of proof, one I heard was that some of the gazans who died in the missile strike have “embedded” bullets from “Kalashnikova”… some Gazans know about this and they are afraid to speak out.
Regardless, I have few Palestinians and Israeli friends. And all of them support Palestinians… and all the Israelis I know told me they would protest after the war to force the Israeli government to rebuild Gaza.
So disgusting to see a correct and balanced viewpoint I agree.
correct and balanced
what a fascinating, bizarre, blatant misspelling of “cracked, unbalanced”…
Ducking autocorrect ruining my day again! Ugh.
False dichotomy.
What’s the other alternative?
What are you on about, what are you asking? why are you asking it?
This is false dichotomy because the intentions of the one using the human shield is known. On the other hand, the one who attacks the human shield needs plenty of context to determine his intentions, motives and decision making. They may not know the human shield is a human shield unless it is obvious or they are being alerted on the facts. Also, they may need to attack as there is clearly something off about the situation that they will fight to survive because there are times where you are at a disadvantage or terrible desicion making put you in a bad spot. Lastly human shields are not always tied up and may act independently enough that they are consciously accepting someone’s orders as a volunteer. There could be stray shots or the human shield intentionally gets in the way. There is so much context required that the “why” is not always subjective. It can be objective reasoning or random sequence of events that were badly done.
Not discounting the fact that there are situations where the “why” is subjective, like you are talking about where the person knows about the human shield and intentionally just targets them for no other reason and it is not collateral. However, this is a sterilized scenario that does not always occur.
They may not know the human shield is a human shield
Its a hospital
human shields are not always tied up and may act independently enough that they are consciously accepting someone’s orders as a volunteer
Its a hospital
There could be stray shots or the human shield intentionally gets in the way
Its a hospital
That’s not a false dilemma.
It’s really quite simple. You’ve set up a phony dichotomy wherein one either supports the killing of all innocent civilians used as “shields” by Hamas, or one is somehow morally obliged to argue that Israel has no right to exist or defend itself.
It’s a bullshit dichotomy.
You’re arguing an “either/or” situation when in fact there are many other alternatives.
or one is somehow morally obliged to argue that Israel has no right to exist or defend itself.
That’s not what is implied. You’ve somehow managed to create a straw man false dichotomy that you can tear down. Impressive. Their is another alternative where neither the hostage or their taker is killed. Which is what is being negotiated now. Israel could have done that from the beginning, instead of bombing civilian children.
Britain’s way of dealing with the IRA wasn’t killing Irish people by the hundreds while hoping that some of them might be terrorists. Spain’s way of dealing with ETA wasn’t killing Basque people by the hundreds while hoping that some of them might be terrorists.
If you think that neither Britain or Spain would have been justified in brutalizing the Irish or Basque populations, but you think that Israel’s disregard for the lives of innocent Palestinians is justified, you’re just a racist tool.
I’m stealing racist tool. Thanks
Tool is slang for penis outside the US. Like Dick, Knob, Bellend. It’s why the band Tool have that penis shaped spanner on one of their album or EP covers.
I’ve seen Tool in concert. They’re awesome.
Is it an unreasonable position that if the IRA launched an attack from a school, then a counterattack is justified even though it would have killed Irish kids, but that unprovoked attacks against Irish civilians would be unjustified?
To anyone both sides-ing this issue, you are flattening the genocide. This is an overwhelmingly lopsided conflict. One side has the funding and backing of the largest military presence the world has ever known. One side has caged and gated the other into increasingly smaller and smaller spaces, like literal concentration camps. This one side has decided that healthcare, housing, food, water, communications, etc are not important to provide to the people who they’ve effectively imprisoned. This side has people at the highest points of leadership calling for ethnic cleansing. This side has been called out by the UN for genocide.
The other side is fighting back on their land, among their own people, in a space that is one of the densest populations on the planet per square foot, in a place with no resources, cannot leave, must defer to settlers who take their property if they leave it due to threat. None of this is by their own choosing. Guerrilla warfare is a tactic used when asymmetry is stark and is often negatively criticised without context to its necessity. Both side-sing ensures that the asymmetrical nature of this conflict remains status quo.
I think this is a bad take.
First of all, it assumes that there are only two sides when in reality, there’s an incredible multitude of groups and factions with their own interests - whether it’s Hamas or the IDF or the Palestinian Islamic Jihad or militant Jewish settlers or Hezbollah or the Iranian leadership or Qatar or the Houthi rebels or any of the other groups that have been involved just in this current conflict.
And secondly, it inherently blames everyone put into either Group A or Group B for the absolutely worst, horrendous atrocities committed by the most extreme elements categorized into those groups.
So suddenly, Israeli citizens who were just a few weeks ago demonstrating against the Netanyahu government are now responsible for atrocities committed by the IDF in Gaza or by some violent settlers in the West Bank. And vice versa, Palestinian families who had to flee their home, maybe lost innocent family members to arbitrary bombing campaigns and are now living as refugees under the most dire circumstances are suddenly responsible for the murder of Israeli civilians, for Israeli children burned, for young Israeli women murdered and paraded around the streets in Gaza, and for all the atrocities committed by Hamas.
That makes absolutely zero sense.
Pointing out that atrocities are being committed by many different factions and groups doesn’t constitute “both-sidesing” the issue, it’s not some kind of enlightened centrism to pretend that it’s just impossible to form an opinion on the issue.
There is no hierarchy of suffering, either. Hamas doesn’t stop being a terrorist organization just because the IDF killed more Palestinians than Hamas murdered Israelis.
But, by the same token, the Netanyahu government doesn’t stop being a right wing extremist government hell bent on destroying democratic institutions in Israel in favor of an authoritarian system just because murderous Islamist terrorists stormed across the Gaza border and killed 1,200 Israelis in the most heinous way imaginable.
And no, pointing out all of the atrocities committed in this conflict or existing empathy for all the innocent victims doesn’t equate to condoning certain atrocities committed by a certain group.
water, communications, etc are not important like turning water pipes into artillery rockets ?
if you were in a ghetto what infrastructure would you be willing to destroy to escape?
depend what
🙏🏻
so we should just ignore Hamas’s war crimes because Israel bad.
We should ignore Hamas’s focus on killing jews specifically? Israel is bad, sure, but every time I start to think that maybe Hamas could be dealt with equitably they go and murder civilians. Just like the Israelis do.
I feel sorry for the Palestinians not aligned with Hamas, they’re the real victims in all this.
That’s not what he said
then spell it out sparky, what is he saying? it’s word salad prevarication as far as I can tell. Hamas needs to stop murdering the people trying to support palestine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/peace-activists-killed-israel.html
Yeah you really sound like someone who wants to have a good faith discussion. I’ll pass.
You sound like someone excusing the murder of innocent people as long as they’re israeli.
Enjoy your imaginary conversation
Again scope and focus: IDF minister, "There will be no electricity, no food, and no fuel, everything will be closed. We are fighting against human animals and will act accordingly.” This is the genocidal rhetoric.
Hamas is fighting a war within a prison where the guards are defacto Israelis. Who the fuck else would they announce that they would be fighting for freedom?
Israel is in complete control over this entire conflict, their actions dictate the reactions from those they indefinitely hold in concentration camps. Do I want both sides to stop killing each other? Yes! But it requires bigger decisions by those in control otherwise the status quo remains and in a year or 5 we’ll see this same type of senseless killing/genocide again like the last 70 years.
scope and focus? did you not see the children murdered by hamas? the pregnant women? for fuck’s sake get some perspective. they’re all killing innocents. they’re all murdering third party bystanders. And until religion goes away, it’s never going to stop.
You’ll be happy to know I’m pissing off both sides, who see any discussion of responsibility on all participants as the* true evil.* Because it takes two parties to fight, but somehow Hamas is the victim here.
Frankly I’m tired of it all; pissant people with their religious conflict over land some asshat decided was ‘the holy land’ because their religious grift got out of control and now it’s gotta be a ‘holy war’ because they all believe their fucking invisible friends are real and there’s some paradise waiting after murdering people - settlers, jihadists, what’s the difference? THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT THEIR OWN INNOCENTS, why should the rest of the world?
The middle east lacks the imagination to see beyond the next murder, because it’s never their fault, it’s always the other guy, so let’s just continue the killing right?
get fucked, maybe you just deserve each other’s horrible company.
No, I am not saying that and see such misdirections as not constructive. It is a matter of focus and scale. Focus on the power structure that creates conditions upon which Hamas is formed and persists: Israeli occupation, destruction, and genocide of Palestine. The scale of the death of civilians on both sides demonstrates how Israel continues to create the conditions. I vehemently disagree with killing civilians but the civilian death count on Israel’s side is exponentially larger than Hamas’ and perpetuates the conflict, among others.
keep killing the civilians who were supporting your cause, that’ll help.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/peace-activists-killed-israel.html
Back at ya.
But this is the most reasonable response.
If they realize that human shields aren’t working, they won’t use them and a more optimal number of people will be killed overall.
Also, any human shields you kill should be attributed to the people using those human shields.
Thats my take on this. I will agree to disagree with anyone who thinks otherwise.
PS: For all those replying: where did the words “Israel” and “Hamas” come from? I would like to bring to your attention that I didn’t cover any details specific to the conflict anywhere above… As far as I am concerned:
- Hamas is a terrorist organization
- civilians in Gaza are innocent
- Opinions about Israel are based entirely on Hamas reporting which could.be accurate or could be misinformation.
PPS: Lets play some mental games for a second.
Statement 1: X is mass murdering innocent people. And Y is trying to kill X.
Who is the bad guy and who is the good guy? X is bad Y is good.
Now let me reveal How X is mass murdering people.
Statement 2: X is doing so by putting those innocent people into the fire of Y on X.
You cannot tell me Y is worse than X after that. I don’t say that we can’t judge Y for attacking X under these circumstances, but X is never better than Y.
If they realize that human shields aren’t working, they won’t use them and a more optimal number of people will be killed overall.
Israel has claimed it is shooting through human shields for decades. Do you think Hamas is too stupid to realize that it doesn’t work?
Hamas likes it when Israel kills Palestinian citizens, because it make Israel justifiably look bad. Hamas wants to get other countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran involved in the war, and dead Palestinian civilians helps that goal.
You’re so close to the plot you could probably taste it
It is the plot, Hamas has said as much. Israel doesn’t seem to care much if they kill the civilians either, but Hamas keeps using human shields because they think their deaths will get them allies.
As much as you mock them its amusing how much you refuse to face reality. Hamas is a terrorist organization funded by Iran specifically to prolong Palestinian suffering and casualties to justify actions against Israel. The majority of Hamas fighters aren’t even Palestinians, same as most of the insurgents in Afghanistan were not natives to the country fighting against coalition forces.
Your argument is if someone takes a hostage let them do what ever they want.
Is that why Israeli has been propping them up for years? https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
That completely contradicts your original point, that “If they realize that human shields aren’t working, they won’t use them”
That wasn’t me who said that mate. Learn to read usernames.
Well fuck I just responded from my inbox. Whatever.
So you think Israel is too stupid to realize how bad this makes them look and they are playing right into Hamas’s hands?
Israel is trying to rescue 240 hostages. I don’t think they care a whole lot about what most of the world thinks
They certainly don’t care about how many thousands of Palestinian civilians “have” to die to free those hostages
No, I think they don’t really care and won’t until they get support pulled by the US. And given the US is negotiating a ceasefire, and civilian casualties have gone down the last week, the US may have threatened just that.
Well fuck I just responded from my inbox. Whatever.
So fast and loose, what if you had created casualties with your mistake?
If they realize that human shields aren’t working, they won’t use them and a more optimal number of people will be killed overall.
Kill civilians first, sort the rest out, later. /s
Also, any human shields you kill should be attributed to the people using those human shields.
Allegedly using. The IDF has yet to offer not debunked evidence that any hospital/refugee camp they bombed actually sheltered Hamas.
Using human shields makes you a war criminal. Attacking someone using human shields does not technically make you a war criminal, because it does not endanger civilians without furthering your “just” goal of killing that war criminal.
Please correct me if I am wrong. You still should consider if killing the war criminal is worth the cost and this does not mean civilians had it coming by any means.
Are you simply uninformed, or do you see all of the 50%-children population of Gaza as the war criminals here? Few Hamas terrorists using hospitals (still not believably proven) for various reasons and IDF bombing these critical service buildings for civilians, while hundreds of civilians are using them, is how come attacking the human-shield users only?
For clarity, no one is arguing against Israel retaliating against Hamas at this conflict. Hamas has proven themselves to be pretty clearly a terrorist organization in their acts, whatever their goals are. The whole world is calling them as such accordingly. What sane people argue here is that IDF has also clearly proven to be a terrorist organization, with a civilian killing scale of sheer efficiency of a regular army and the so called western humanitarian governments are turning s blind eye to it, or worse trying to pass it as something just.
The meme is about morality, not legality.
Legality is downstream from morality. To me, killing civilians in a war is pretty fked up. But wilfully getting your own women and children killed just so you can film them to show the world how bad your mortal enemy is is way beyond fked up.
Yeah, the world shouldn’t see what’s happening.
Way to miss the point… Keep doing propaganda for people who’d murder your wife and daughter for not wearing a hijab, that will show those heckin zionists
Upvotes for racism. Must be nice.
Today I learned Hamas is a race
It’s the generalization that makes it racist.
Proof?
The Geneva convention is pretty clear on this. The presence of civilians doesn’t render certain points or areas immune from military operation.
Hamas knows exactly what they’re doing and what the consequences are. Peace will come when Arabs love their children as much as they hate Jews.
That is true, but it also stipulates that while they remain military targets, that extreme measures must be taken to minimize civilian casualties.
So while you can still try to get the terrorists, you can’t just bomb the entire thing, or fill the theatre with poison gas killing a ton of the civilians (as happened in Russia).
You mean like spending thousands of hours phoning people in the area and telling them to leave. You mean like sending your troops in at their own risk to escort civilians out of harm’s way?
From my chair, it’s proven very difficult to aid the civilians in the region when their own government is going out of their way to increase civilian risk. Well openly stating that the people living there are the problem of the UN. I don’t know how to square that circle and I don’t think anyone really does, which is ultimately a tragedy that we’re seeing unfold. There’s also the question of who’s a civilian and who’s not. We’ve seen video of medics taking weapons off of wounded people and handing them to people dressed in civilian clothes to fire on the IDF. That pretty much makes every male in the war zone a potential threat. Again, entirely understood by Hamas and part of their operating plan.
Yeah… It’s like strapping bombs of civilians but giving the enemy the trigger.
Both sides are fucked up. No justifying one or the other.
An enlightened take.
anyone trying to make this very complicated seem this simple is the problem… the truth is two groups of people hate each other and have been super shitty to each other for a long long long time. One group is going to destroy the other cause they can’t get along. No one is right, no one is wrong. It’s just the way that it is… yeah, that’s shitty. I didn’t decide for things to be this way though.
The “two sides” argument is pretty BS.
Any other argument is just plain wrong and negates history
I’d argue that the “two sides” argument is voiced by people who either don’t know the history, or is too biased to care.
There is always two sides to any conflict, by definition. It’s in of itself an intellectual cop out. But, bringing that point up when one side killing 30 children for every 1 killed, suggests the real basis is one of the two mentioned in the beginning.
There is always two sides to any conflict, by definition
That’s a great point and it is also very important here.
Really not much more to say. Reducing this conflict to the number of people killed on each side is just unreasonable and lacks both context and nuance.
Reducing this conflict to the number of people killed on each side is just unreasonable and lacks both context and nuance
… you’re the one that is reducing it to “both sides”. You do see that, right? Which is the whole point?
It’s not a reduction to include historical context, motivations, etc.
If you do think that you should look up what reduction means.
It really is.
It’s a cop out because you can say that about any conflict. “They hate each other, that’s just the way it is.”
It’s also a license to continue the egregious conduct, because “it can’t be solved.”
How can you misunderstand propaganda The propaganda is : “they use human shield so when you shot at them we can’t avoid killing civilians”
The lie being that this is binary choice, either shoot the terrorist killing the civilian or don’t shoot and let the terrorist kill people. The reality is that you can also try to devise a tactic to outsmart them.
And no you’re not fucking worse. If you take hostage and shot at the police when they enter and a civilian is killed in the firefight your 1000% getting charged for the death.
Btw the “rethoric” is a fucking UN reports
