A district judge in Wisconsin has sided with an 11-year-old trans girl over her use of the girls’ toilets and temporarily blocked school officials from preventing her access.
A district judge in Wisconsin has sided with an 11-year-old trans girl over her use of the girls’ toilets and temporarily blocked school officials from preventing her access.
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As a father of two elementary school aged girls, I can tell you that they don’t give a shit. They would rather be supportive of their friend. People who insist on perpetuating outdated concepts of gender roles and modesty are on the wrong side of history.
It is good your daughter’s are good with this. Would be nice if everyone was. But do you think all the girls or even the majority are comfortable that need to use same bathroom if they know someone might be biological male?
When I’m using the restroom, the last thing I care about is which genitals the person in the other stall has. Why would this be a concern?
Honest question, if this is the take why do transgender people need to use the opposite sex bathroom? Why does it matter?
I’m not transgender, so you probably should ask them.
What I do know is that this is a major issue for them, to the point where some of them develop bladder issues from avoiding the restroom out of fear of being bullied. When people tell me that something is causing them to suffer, I tend to believe them, unless there’s some compelling evidence otherwise.
When I was in college, I knew a transman. One day, I walked into the men’s restroom as he was walking out, and one of the other men in the restroom turned to his friend and said, “What’s she doing in here?” (Meaning the transman.) Now imagine if you had to deal with the possibility of being bullied that way (or worse!) every time you wanted to use the restroom.
Preface: am not trans, but have thought about and read many things from transppl about everything going on in their heads bc its still sth i struggle with
This will also vary based on the individual, and there’s probably at least one transperson out there that doesn’t care. But for those that do, I’d think it comes down to it being one more aspect where they’re put into a box they really don’t feel like they belong in. Something that on its own would likely not be a big deal, but if you’re already trying to 1) get away from everything your birth sex has confined you to and 2) try to feel as close to your actual gender as possible in every day life, it can make a difference.
Really I’m just confused why bathrooms are gender seperated in the first place though, we have stalls for a reason?
Some girls have a problem with it. Should we ignore their concerns? I wish everyone had no issues at all like you. If that was the case we could just build single coed bathrooms. Possibly that is what we should do from an early age. Get rid of the male/female bathroom entirely so that it is normal to all use the same bathroom and gender identity would no longer matter.
Yes. The concerns of transphobes (and other bigots) should be ignored.
So if you oppose your automatically a phobe. Got it.
Do you understand the definition of the word? If you have an aversion to sharing a space with trans people, then you’re a transphobe.
Gotcha so throw out any concerns females may have…got it.
If you oppose the rights of trans people to use the bathroom, then you are transphobic.
I don’t think they’re in opposition to the rights of trans people to use the bathroom. Way to shift the argument. congrats.
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Some people have a problem with using the same bathroom a black person uses. Should we care?
Yes, we should ignore them. Just like we ignore homophobes that have a problem sharing with gays, or racists that have a problem sharing with back people.
N=2
I am speaking anecdotally, but in my daily interactions at my kids daycamp, my kids views are pretty much on par with the rest of their peers. There’s a boy at their daycamp who likes to wear dresses. He’s treated no differently than any of the other kids. They have unisex bathrooms because the ratio of girls to boys is out of whack, so it makes more sense.
My point is that kids today don’t care. They don’t have the same hangups that we were raised with. And why should they?
My boys (19 and 16) are the same way. If “John” comes out to them and says that they prefer being called “Jane,” my boys immediately accept it completely and start calling her with the correct name and pronouns.
My boys regard trans (or any other facet of LGBTQ) as the same level of information regarding a person as “they have black hair” or “they have blue eyes.” It’s a basic fact about them, but not a reason to judge the person.
Now, if the person acts like a jerk, then my boys will definitely judge them.
Is actually love to see a survey of different age groups and see how much they care about this, but this sort of feedback is neither constructive nor useful.
Your thought is valid.
But what I wanted to tell you is that based upon my kids, their friends, and other people’s kids that I know and talk to - very VERY few of them give a single fuck about this sort of thing. Like surprisingly few.
It’s refreshing, because it’s truly no big deal.
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That’s a you problem, and it’s up to you to get over.
Your problem is “My way or the highway”
It’s called human rights. You can either accept them, or move to a country that does not value them.
Unless your are a Female
Women also can move to countries that do not value human rights. Not that I would advise it, but they can.
Females are humans.
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Why should a majority conform to a very small minority?
The majority of people think your transphobia is disgusting and not something we want perpetuated. It’s a myth to think your way of thinking is anything normal. Most people don’t think about other people’s genitals as much as you do. We just go pee and never give other people any thought.
Please change your path before you’re too far gone.
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I did, sorry. Was that not right?
And my axe!
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They’re on about your transphobia, my man.
Can you please elaborate on what part actually makes you uncomfortable? Because it’s kind of coming off like you just don’t want trans people in your space. I’m not* going to call you a bigot but please try and reflect on what is bothering you.
The cult had spoken
Bunch of people with similar values is not a cult.
Great story
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If this was the 1950s you would be saying " I don’t hate black people, I just don’t think anyone should be forced to be uncomfortable because of them." with regards to sharing a water fountain or a lunch counter. That’s all I can think of when I read your message. Your a bigot, plain and simple
Should we make separate bathrooms for non white people too? Maybe we should have different seats in public transport too.
Username checks out
You’re making people uncomfortable, you tiresome little shit stain. Fuck off to your own space.
You’re scratching your head at why people are mad at you, but it’s probably because you’re trying to find some compromise between being pro and anti trans - two diametrically opposed ideas. You’re point seems to boil down to: “I’m not transphobic, but trans people might make people uncomfortable, and we should also consider that.”. But, why should be? Trans people making you feel icky is a piss-poor reason to say they can’t use their preferred bathroom. People were concerned about Gay people and Black people in the same spaces as straight/white for a big chunk of the last century, it’s the same reactionary bullshit as always.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it a million times: your ick is your problem. (The general you) Just like one’s triggers are one’s own problem. No one gets to dictate how the rest of the world operates because something makes them feel grody or triggers them.
What if a male isn’t trans but wants to use the women’s restroom?
It’s just that there’s always something. Always someone inventing problems or trying to skirt any minor inconvenience, real or perceived, by sheer laziness.
Yesterday it was masks and today it’s the fucking toilet, tomorrow what will it be? Handicapped ramps? I don’t think you hate trans people but you’re in that tiny minority of joyless ghouls that would rather piss off everybody than move a muscle to accommodate a need they don’t have.
It’s shit attitude and when I read this kind of take I just think “how do these poor people even function at work if they can’t align on a simple thing like that”.
For someone with Uncle Iroh as your username, you sure aren’t as understanding as your namesake. I think you’re more like Zuko at the beginning of his journey; only thinking about himself and his needs.
Imagine being so triggered by someone using a stall near you. As a man, I wouldn’t care if a woman came into the gents and used a stall. Why would I care? Anyone in the bathroom is there to do their business and get out, not to look at your little fella.
Isn’t this just an argument against your point of view? Most people I’ve ever talked to don’t care as long as the trans individual is minding their own business, why should the majority conform to a very small minority who is uncomfortable? Your argument is the same one made to support segregated bathrooms.
All that’s being asked is that people mind their business in public restrooms. See someone who looks a little different? Cool, wash your hands and leave. If a trans person is being a creep in a bathroom, kick them out the same way you would kick out anyone else being a creep. The other 99.9% of the time, just mind your own business and let people pee and wash their hands in peace.
Would you be okay with a man using the women’s bathroom if he isn’t trans?
It’s not my job to do genital inspections at the door.
Pooping is pooping. Idc of the person next to me is white, black, man, woman, child, or mysteriousblobofgreenoo. Just make sure to flush and wash your hands when you’re done.
So you would be okay with a man using the women’s bathroom even if he isn’t trans.
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Alright, you lost me.
You don’t have to conform. You have to learn that it makes no difference at all.
Shame you’re besmirching the name of Uncle Iroh. He would calmly pour some tea and tell you, “How odd, in that situation, that it is you who needs to grow a pair.”
how uncle iroh('s voice actor) actually responds to transphobes:
I read that in his voice
I am confident you don’t realize the full implications of what you’re saying, so please don’t take this as an attack, but would you also support “black only” restrooms for this exact same reason? If not, why not?
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Why do either matter in the bathroom? How does the sex of someone else change how you pee or poop?
There are already laws in place to prevent people from harassing others in the bathroom, regardless of sex. I just don’t understand. There are SO many contradictions in the belief that banning trans people from the bathroom of their choosing is even worth discussion.
Are you worried about girls and women being uncomfortable in the bathroom around someone who looks like a guy? Ok, so if a ban is in place, they now have to share the bathroom with trans men who look a hell of a lot more like a guy than a trans woman.
Is it about preventing people who may be attracted to others from sharing space in the bathroom? First, gross, it’s a bathroom; only pervs go looking for any kind of sexual gratification there (and again, there’s already laws that cover this). Second, gay people exist, so it’s kind of a moot point to ban trans people.
It just seems like any concern used to justify a trans bathroom ban would still exist even if a ban was in place. I mean, unless of course the only concern is “trans people have too many rights in our society” in which case, kindly, fuck right off.
and it’s worth mentioning that there is no genital check before entering a bathroom. An “anti-trans bathroom” law would likely also get wielded against masculine women and effeminate men who are not transgender.
None of it makes any sense when you take 30 seconds to consider it.
The gender non conforming cis people who also face assault and harassment from transphobes are intended casualties.
A huge part of the transphobic movement is extremely misogynistic, and believe that deviating from gender roles should be punished and discouraged.
Which has already happened at least twice that I’ve seen reports of. Though I suspect that’s the point.
Yeah, laws already cover all the bases. Thats why I think the entire idea of not letting trans people use their bathroom of choice is derogatory.
Are they? What if someone still feels weird when a Black person walks into the bathroom with them? Should we take that person’s feeling into account and simply give Black people their own space where they can be comfortable and let everyone else be comfortable too?
If no: why not?
Racism and transphobia are 2 completely comparable things.
They’re not
Wow. Thats an insane thing to say.
Not if you’re transphobic. It’s a pretty telling response, honestly.
Elaborate? In what way are they so different that they wouldn’t also apply for the comment I quoted?
I think the point is that the kids don’t care and the only people complaining are the adults who don’t feel completely comfortable.
I have a friend who’s son is transitioning, not a single of the kids at his school give a single shit. Even more so they say things to their parents like, “how can you be so binary” and such like. The kids don’t care it’s the parents who are uncomfortable and projecting it unto the kids.
Bullies would. But not so much because they’re transphobic, but because they just look for anything that could be a soft spot to abuse.
You don’t see a problem with needing to build a 3rd bathroom in every place that only has 2 bathrooms, and would single out those who use it as an “other” to anyone seeing them use it?
Build a 3rd bathroom is still a hilarious take to me. No the solve is Female only and Unisex. That way you don’t need to build anything.
You know what happens when I’m uncomfortable about something? I try and look at why. If I feel that the reasons are because of my own personal insecurities and triggers, I try and deconstruct them and find reasons and solutions to them. What I don’t do is project those insecurities on others, and force them to conform to my point of view.
Hell yeah, well said.
Why? What kind of “weird”?
Fr 💀 does he think his friend is going to sexually assault him? His mindset proves he has a huge lack of respect for his friend.
I wonder if his friend knows how he feels. I feel bad for him. Imagine the first person you’re comfortable opening up to feeling this way.
I bet his friend doesn’t exist
It sounds suspiciously like “I have a black friend” and that black friend is a white guy who did blackface once
Stop looking at your friends genitals in the bathroom. Problem solved. Fuck your comfort, no one cares about your feelings. Let people use the bathroom for fucks sake.
“That’s a small sample size. Here’s my anecdote with an even smaller sample size!”
They don’t want to feel different and “other” though, which a separate bathroom would absolutely do. The kids don’t care, the kids don’t have your old school hangups. So let’s not breed new hangups, let’s let the old ones die.
As to sports, we get to decide how things are organized. Sports rules aren’t handed down from on high. We can change the sorting of genders to make it fair and inclusive. We can experiment with different ways of sorting until we find that correct balance. We don’t have to cling to the old ways just because it’s what we’re uses to.
My teenage kid said, when presented with an lgbtq+ issue, “That’s a your generations problem. Grow up.”
the kids are all right
Cool. I hope you don’t misconstrue that to think that it happens everywhere.
So you think we should ignore the concerns of less confident girls and boys that are uncomfortable with it?
I think that transphobia should be addressed, but not by taking away rights from trans people.
Please just either go back to reddit or go outside and get a social life
The kids don’t give a fuck. It’s the backwards parents who can’t get their mind out of the dark ages that are ‘uncomfortable’.
Can u honestly imagine being incensed by a fellow human being going to the bathroom? It’s ludicrous.
Wouldn’t it be choosing the bathroom?
I don’t think people would be ‘incensed’ if this person went to the boy’s room.
No, instead they would be like “Why is this girl in the boys’ bathroom”.
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lol
Something separate, but equal?
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Alexa, define “segregation”
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Tbh this segregation is also stupid as well, it’s completely possible to make non-gendered bathrooms that are safe spaces. High traffic areas with to the floor stalls that are basically rooms are the best option. Low traffic areas are the issue however. But segregation is overall pretty ridiculous even for bathrooms, and implies a failure of our culture to minimize predators.
There have to be millions of restaurants, cafes and other places that already have unisex bathrooms, and apparently that’s never been a problem. Weird, huh?
Exactly. The Red Rocks Amphitheater in Colorado does exactly this and it makes so much sense. Also by far the nicest bathrooms I’ve ever seen at a concert venue
Yes, but that’s not an option here, because in response to a suggestion that she use a non-gendered bathroom ‘she had suffered “emotional distress and mental-health effects, including thoughts of self-harm, nightmares, embarrassment, social isolation and stigma, and lowered self-esteem”’ That’s copied directly from the article.
Non-gendered bathrooms would appear to be the ultimate solution here, so obvs this girl’s going to be majorly traumatised every time she needs a wazz in that setup.
She was being forced to use a gender-neutral bathroom in lieu of existing gendered bathrooms. Basically the administration was denying her her identity at a very basic level. It wasn’t just about bathrooms, it was about allowing someone to identify as their own gender.
A gender-neutral bathroom is a solution without separate gendered bathrooms, not in concert with them.
It’s basically saying “If you can’t be one, we won’t let you be the other, so you have to go to the weird people place to do your business”. Kind of a fucked up thing to tell someone, much less a child.
Because most of them are happy to use one of the existing options you’ve already mentioned, it is people like you who have the problem, so why shouldn’t you be the ones to be segregated?
Why do you want to other trans people?
There’s alot of other ways you could have divided bathroom use but you ignored race, occupation, sexual orientation, housing status, handedness, whether they support the Yanks or the Mets, if-or-not they wear flip flops, number 1 or number 2, time since their last covid test, attractiveness, their tact when sniffed, and dick size.
Could have segregated bathrooms by any the above categories but you chose to suggest a bathroom for (presumably cisgender) Man, a bathroom for (presumably cisgender) Women, and an “Other” bathroom occupied by people who are not just not men and not women (whose absence of a space “for” them is a salient if side point) but people who very much fit within the binary categories “Man” and “Woman” but you still want separate, with the odd, ends, and enbys, from the Cis People bathroom.
Think about why it is you want a “Cis People Bathroom”.
Don’t even think about the invasion of genital privacy or general propriety required to effect the border you wish to erect.
Think about why this is a thing you want.
Why you want people, who have genders—which are every bit as real as yours—, to have to expel the semi-solid remains of food and wastes and toxins filtered from their blood in a separate room from you.
What is it about these people that makes their shit stink more (or less) enough to warrant their doing so separately?
Surely it’s not as simple as “Their gender turned out differently than a 13-second-old genital exam told them that it should, for which they need be punished.”
Respect if that’s it. “Fuck Trans People.” Not the way I’d go with things, but it’s an ethos.
I don’t think that’s it, though.
You seem nice enough I doubt naked bigotry compels your actions.
You seem well-informed enough—further—to know just how expensive a “fuck you” a third for every second bathroom would be just to keep a percentage point the populace apart 'pon poop and piss.
So if it’s not naked bigotry, and it wouldn’t be very effective bigotry even if it was, what is it that makes you think trans people need to not be around people who aren’t trans during the 15/1440 minutes a day the average ass spends on a toilet?
You and I both know they have no answer.
Why should we? Because they make you uncomfortable?
Why should we legislate what other people do based on your discomfort? They’re not trying to change the way you live your life, they’re not getting in your face by using a bathroom (unless you’re blocking their path for some reason), they’re just trying to live their life to the best of their ability. Why is that so discomforting for you?
Stalls are already “segregated.” Who cares if you have to wash your hands next to someone who looks a little different?
So who cares if I as a man go into a girls’ bathroom?
Mostly republican politicians who can leverage that as a way to motivate their base.
Unless you plan on molesting people on your trip to the bathroom… should we be worried about that?
Because trans people are not a third, distinct gender. They are male or female.
Not all of them.
It was my understanding that non-binary was a separate thing outside of the typical two genders (and therefore not TRANS(itioning to the other)gender. Is going from male to nonbinary also considered being transgender (as you are transitioning to non-binary)? Genuinely curious.
Some nonbinary people also medically transition, often in ways identical to their binary transgender peers. A nonbinary person who was assigned female at birth may get a mastectomy and take a similar dose of testosterone to trans men, for example. Not all nonbinary people identify as transgender, but in general anyone whose gender does not match their sex assigned at birth can be considered transgender.
Should make sure to have separate drinking fountains, too, just to be safe.
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So did the people who made Jim Crow laws.
Holy shit, you’re not being sarcastic? Why? What is your logic?
You have to be trolling at this point, he alley-ooped it and you dunked the on yourself 💀
They’re dense enough to be considered a singularity at this point.
They’re 100% a Dutch troll and should be properly ignored by the majority in here. Like someone else said, such a disappointment given the username.
Yeah, either really confused and ignorant or just trolling. Either way, fuck that guy.
Woosh
do you hear yourself right now?!
The 11 year old girl the judge sided with is one of the “little girls being uncomfortable with it”.
I wish I could boost this again
I got you.
💜
Right click “new private window”.
Let’s not advocate for vote manipulation.
Can you really say that was advocating?
I didn’t Nathaniel Demerest anyone into wishing they could do things.
I just told a person how they could do a thing they’re already expressed a wish to do.
“I just told them a good place to rob and gave them a gun to do it, officer, I didn’t do anything wrong!”
I told no one to do any thing.
If a person walks up to you and says, “I wish I could buy some cocaine!” it’s not entrapment to tell them there’s a dude who sells it in the park.
Whatever goes on in that park is between the people doing it.
You can tell a person their wishes can come true and not be encouraging them to peruse them.
I mean, people are responsible for their own actions, of course. But that’s not limited to direct actions.
Why is telling an addict where to get more of something they’re addicted to (and potentially killing them) not a bad thing in your mind? Do you feel you bear no responsibility in your own actions?
Just because you don’t hold their hand the whole time doesn’t mean you have no affect on their decision making process.
Lol, good one.
This discomfort usually comes up if you expect a trans kid (most likely trans girl) to show their genitals (usually a dick) to you or your kids. That does not happen. This is what conservatives want you to think though when they ban trans kids (or even trans people of all ages) from using the toilet matching their gender.
This doesn’t happen because most of the time trans people are not comfortable with their genitals anyway. But even if they are: They don’t show their genitals because they want to take a dump in the toilet.
Besides: I find the confidence of conservatives truly remarkable that they think that a trans woman will go around and show them their dick. Conservatism is not sexy for us at all, nevermind sexy enough that we get naked on the spot.
You know what is sexy enough to make us undress on the spot? Consent! There’s nothing more sexy than a consenting partner!
Also what dismalnow said.
It’s about the discomfort of adults who don’t want to think about things that are different than what they learned is “normal” when they were growing up.
11 year olds aren’t generally the ones giving that many fucks. Remember that most boys have only just entered puberty by that age, literally no one reasonable is expecting the bag of hormones that is, say, a 16 year old.
I’m honestly really fucking disappointed someone would take the username uncle_iroh and just use it to be a malignant cunt.
completely off-topic but even with all his good qualities, Iroh was actually kinda sexist and probably contributed a great deal to Azula’s aggression and compulsion to prove herself as a worthy successor to the throne of the fire nation.
In what fucking world do you live in where anything he just said would justify being a “malignant cunt”. Happy to see this place is just reddit 2.0.
I agree actually. I’m hoping they’re just misguided.
If you dont like it you could always leave instead of being a lil bitch about it.
So you’re just a cunt. Glad we cleared that up.
I work with kids. They only give a fuck about shit like this if their parents make a huge deal about it. Trust me, they do not fucking care otherwise.
I’m a cisgender male and would much rather take a shit in a stall next to a dude with a pussy and a beard than take a piss at a urinal next to a woman with a dick, and I think women would probably rather take a piss next to someone who looks like a woman than next to someone who looks like a man. As long as the transgender person in question is dressed as their identified gender then I highly doubt any reasonable person will give a shit about their presence in the bathroom, unless women like to inspect eachother’s genitals in there or something.
Exactly what is dressed as their gender require? Are you suggesting transgender girl has to wear a dress or makeup or some defining cloth? If she decides to come to school in jeans and button shirt she must use the boys bathroom that day?
That they dress how you’d expect their gender to dress
As long as women look like women and men look like men in the bathrooms, I won’t bat an eye
This ain’t 1953, women are allowed to wear jeans and shirts now. I just don’t wanna take a piss next to someone who looks like a woman, is that too much to ask?
Again what exactly makes a women look like a women? What exactly does she have to do or wear to make it acceptable to you?And when did a trans person have to conform to yours or my opinion of what visually determines his or her gender?
The point I am making is that this is not black and white. It is rather rich in that you are fine providing a trans person confirms to your idea alone of what is acceptable.
Plenty of things. Hairstyle, specifics regarding their types of clothing, mannerisms, etc.
You know it when you see it, that’s all I can say.
If a trans person wishes to be recognized as whatever gender they identify as, then that means that unless they carry around a sign saying “I AM A WOMAN” or “I AM A MAN” 24/7, they’re gonna have to conform to society’s expectations of how their identified gender is supposed to look and act. Otherwise, people will be made uncomfortable if they look like they don’t belong. Most women wouldn’t want to share a bathroom with someone with a beard who wears blue jeans and a tank top, and I don’t want to share a bathroom with someone with a skirt and a ponytail.
Cis isn’t real bud, it’s made up. You are male.
lol i bet you think females exist as well