This is a genuine question, as every time I have an argument about this with someone they bring a point so utterly stupid that it leaves me stumped…
It’s a waste of time. These types of people are as thick as mince, you’re not gonna change their mind because they have zero interest or incentive to do so. It’s a fucking cult of morons.
You are not wrong, but you stop short. These types are also very weak emotionally. As Adam Kinzinger said, MAGAs are too terrified to leave the tribe. They believe the lies because their tribe tells them to.
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This is the sentence that I needed to read today. Thank you
It’s stupid because:
- Women are not some single homogenous group. Every woman is a unique person, just like men are.
- Everyone by default deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, including women.
- Being an asshole doesn’t make you more likable.
- Instead of trying to hack your way into a relationship, have you tried actually dating someone?
1000% this. You can break most of the red pill mentality if you can make the person understand that each woman is their own individual, and that the whole “us vs them” mentality will not get them very far.
I think you will also have a greater chance of changing their mentality if you manage to understand what drove them into the “red pill path” to begin with.
There are books about how to manipulate women. I read one of those and felt sick. No normal man can write stuff like that, publish it, and feel good about himself. Jesus.
I personally manipulate my wife into loving me by being a responsible husband and loving father.
Am I doing it right?
Based and dadpilled.
Yes that kind of manipulation is quite alright. :)
Normal men don’t read it either. We’re potentially raising more broken young men than we’ve seen in the last hundred years. And when the aftershocks arrive, people will act surprised like they always do.
It’s by design. I know it sounds a bit lame, but it’s obvious the west is not spending money on creating healthy kids and adults.
Women are not some single homogenous group. Every woman is a unique person, just like men are.
Actually I think you’ll find that all women everywhere can be extrapolated from 5 shit takes on Twitter, one of which was a joke and one of which was a far-right LARPer /s
If you care about the people you’re talking to, belittling their entire viewpoint dismissively without countering their arguments. Is not going to win them over. In fact it might hurt their relationship with you.
If you have the time and inclination, take the argument they have that you have an issue with, and break it down to its fundamental points. It’s a good exercise for both of you. Work through what things mean at a fundamental level to both of you and find what the core disagreement is. Is it philosophical, is it structural, is it traditional, there’s many facets of an argument that people can latch on to. Having them explain why to you and then why the why etc can be helpful for both you and them to come to if not a common understanding but a mutual respect for positions.
But this is time intensive, and if we’re just talking about randos on the internet it’s not worth your time.
There is no disagreement, I just feel kinda sad seeing people that I’ve known for years fall into being red pill bots and try to act “cool” (like morons) any time anyone disagrees with them or dares say anything negative about that one rich asshole…
Okay you’ve known them for years. That’s a large time investment.
So when they do something you disagree with at a fundamental level, ask them to explain oh why do you support that? And then when they give you a high level answer ask them why that is there answer. Like peel the onion to get to their core issues. And if people’s core issues that’s just what other people say and they haven’t thought about it, you’re going to help them think about it for themselves. Which may not convert them but will at least get them to apply some intellectual rigor to their thinking
Ahh the Socratic Method. One of the most effective means of teaching is playung just dumb enough, asking the right questions and getting them to provide some evidence. Make them convince you of their point of view and just keep pointing out the flaws once they start making contradictions.
What do you tell them right now? Do you ague or tell them they’re idiots?
Mostly the ladder, as I’ve exhausted my strength to argue with them
That will achieve nothing but getting them to dislike you. That is an option, but I think two better ones are to either accept that you’re not going to change their minds because they’re too far down that rabbit hole and either just cope or cut off contact or spend a lot of time and effort constructing rational counter-arguments. I recommend the former.
I have some very crazy friends. That’s okay because they’re crazy in ways that don’t offend me. If they offend me with their crazy, I’m not going to waste my time with them anymore. It’s not worth the effort to try to change them and it isn’t really my job.
Edit: as a total off-topic thing regarding red pill/blue pill. In the Matrix universe: What happens if you take both pills?
You transcend reality and become god (an even bigger incel)
There’s a Matrix above the Matrix?
It’s matrices all the way down!
Something about matriosca dolls…? No, it’s gone.
This also presumes that aspects of the root cause are changeable. I grew up with a guy who became an incel in the pure sense, not political sense.
The poor guy was hit with the ugly stick very badly, and then had an accident that left him partially disabled.
When puberty hit and everyone became horny assholes, he had a double whammy of being a horny asshole too, but getting ignored (at best) or out-right derision from the teen girls he expressed interest in. He was also self-aware enough to both know that he was a hypocrite because he only wanted to date an attractive woman, and that he understood that goes both ways (societally and biologically) so he went into a cycle of vocal self-loathing.
You can guess the rest. Those behaviors compounded and altered his personality to the point he was no longer the happy go lucky ugly ass dude and was now the guy who was just as ugly on the inside as the outside and no one wanted to be around that negativity.
I have no idea what happened to him after college as I never went back to my HS town after my parents moved away from it. I would like to think he is doing better with age and therapy, but I doubt it.
I’m not saying you’re going to convince everyone. But clearly you understand this person’s motivations. You can’t bring them to your perspective, but you can socialize a healthier perspective to them. You don’t have to convince everybody to be you. And I’m really happy that you’re so conscientious and sympathetic. Probably something that person needed to be less of an asshole than they could have possibly been.
That’s so sad - sometimes life can be so horribly unfair!
The first step to changing someone’s mind is acknowledging that you probably won’t be able to. The other commenters are right, the red pill is stupid, it’s annoying to argue with them, and you’ll probably fail the delicate act of ideological conversion. Still want to give it a shot? Great!
Depending on how deep down the rabbit hole they are, the answer is it could either be impossible or it’s a long term dedicated effort. First you should learn a bit about cult deprogramming techniques, as while the red pill isn’t really a cult it is an echo chamber ie. a mostly comprehensive view of the world that has built in answers that insulate from external dissent. The red pill tends to provide community, some degree of lifestyle improvement, and a feeling of secret insights into society / the world, and it’s very rare an individual will give those things up for the sake of something as abstract as logical consistency.
You need to slowly provide alternatives to whatever positives the red pill provides, which while annoying is possible because the red pill sucks. The online sense of community is tenuous at best, so be their friend and connect them to other friends that’ll entirely replace that aspect. Additionally, the lifestyle improvement aspect is rather generic and can come from anywhere. Ask them what specific red pill people they follow and provide a gym / motivation YouTuber that better provides whatever motivation the red pill gives.
The final element is the feeling of insight into the world that the red pill gives. This one is ironically the least important to changing someone’s mind and the most difficult, as in order to successfully provide alternatives you likely need to understand the red pill ideology better than they do. Nothing a red pill person says should stump you, you should have heard it beforehand and researched it and thought of better counter arguments. If they mention hypergamy, you should have annecdotal, theoretical, and statistical answers ready to go. You should know their ideology well so you can make annoying jokes about how ridiculous it is when applied to real life.
If you do these things, over enough time and done diplomatically enough so they don’t leave you for a friend that doesn’t annoy them, you can probably depeogram a red pill person.
I’ve heard it said (by a sociologist) that unwinding conspiratorial thinking requires approaching someone with compassion. Rather than tell them that they are wrong, ask them to explain why they think a particular thing.
Honestly, I don’t have the patience or compassion to try to do this. I gave up trying to talk my mother out of her Fox News beliefs and instituted a “no politics” rule in our relationship in order to save it. Best move that was available for me.
Asking questions and not sounding like it’s a gotcha moment seems to be effective in many fields. Heard it being effective regarding smoking as well.
Yeah it’s 90% compassion and 10% argumentation. Seeing things from their perspective, seeing the aspects they like and not immediately placing those aspects into the good and bad buckets, but instead truly appreciating how those aspects work for them. Of course, then you need to figure out how to advance your position over theirs, but that exhaustingly starts in compassion.
Oh fuck. That’s like at least a level 8 difficulty out of 10.
Yeah it’s incredibly difficult, that’s why the majority of people never change their ideology past their early 20s when they first flirt with several. Add in the fact that you’ll likely be socially ostracized from your old community if you ever do change your mind and the evolutionary pressure to be accepted over being logical, and it’s quite frankly impressive anyone ever does.
Thing I don’t get is where people are finding this sense of community. I understand that it’s rough to feel like you belong in America, but are red pill Internet communities really enough for some people to give them a sense of belonging? Every Internet “community” I’ve ever been a part of just feels like a bunch of strangers arguing about things and trying to pile into some ranking order.
I know this was posted eons ago but this needs to be said. The most HONEST way to deal with Red Pill rhetoric is to verbally Aikido them.
First, admit the truth - SOME women are exactly like the nightmares they conjure up. I mean, Miriam Nakamoto DID dump her boyfriend specifically BECAUSE he failed to look masculine enough while he was losing a MMA match. There are women like that in the world. Evidence you bring up isn’t going to negate that, and it is fear of these women that DRIVES Red Pill. When you say that’s not a thing, you’re giving them false information. You’re gaslighting at that point, and they’re going to see that and retreat back to their extremist ideology.
So the SECOND part is, go with what you know and we all know: women ain’t all like that. But there’s also the missing link here: Red Pill people are that way because they failed to properly pick the women they date, so they just keep running into these bad women. The problem you must address is that they’re all about dating the best looking women rather than the nicest women, and they are the CLASSIC example of men who fall for “crazy hot” women. Sound familiar? Yeah because it’s the counterpart for they say women fall for Chads/jerks. So the answer to the real problems that Red Pill brings up is not their sociopathic Dark Triad tactics, it’s properly vetting your partners - looking for moral character and actual compatibility rather than just the best looking women. They need to be specifically told that if a man can’t be attracted to a woman who’s not 18-19 years old, big breasts and hourglass figure (the female counterpart to 6 feet, 6 figures and 6 inches) then that man needs to rethink his life rather than turn to the Redpill.
This is the whole answer that they need.
One of the Wachowskis mocking it.That’s great but not going to convince anyone who’s already in too deep.
But it’s the right amount of energy to spend on someone who’s in too deep. Zero.
Life is too short to argue with idiots. Ignore them let them wallow in their stupidity.
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I’ve always had a bone to pick with that expression.
What experience? If it’s an old fart with outdated views, yeah maybe they can keep complaining about shit that doesn’t matter anymore, but dumbshit people my age or younger? What experience?
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Thanks that makes sense
It works better in context, the quote is “don’t argue with idiots: they’ll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.” I’ve always taken that as “experience at being an idiot”. The “yeah, well, muh wisdom/experience” copout is unrelated.
Thanks that makes much more sense
You might want to learn what the quote means before you develop an opinion on it.
Other comments have helped.
Unfortunately, they’re allowed to vote.
You don’t. See the first (introduction) video from the Alt-Right Playbook. Basically, there is a real risk that even if you “win” the argument, the red-pill derp just gets angry and takes it out on a convenient female target. The energy is better spent finding ways to counter red-pill ideology that don’t involve engaging directly with these people.
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My mother threw out a statistic about police killings that she got from Fox that I was able to counter in five seconds with a Google search and a WaPo article. She said she still believed Fox. Our relationship had already been strained due to politics (summer 2020) and I nearly cut the relationship off because I was so appalled by her politics. The solution was to stop discussing those topics. It’s not as straight forward bad to reject discussion as you are suggesting.
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Look into ‘Street Epistemology’: https://streetepistemology.com/
It’s not an easy thing to employ in the moment. A lot of ‘red pill’ types actually try to employ this method, unfortunately for them they do it very clumsily and are often visibly just JAQing off (“Just asking questions, bro”). But, when this technique is used to genuinely understand and break down someone’s position (instead of a cult conversion / ‘argument winner’ tool), it’s quite effective.
you just described all the conversations i had with my ex. blah blah blah “you know i think desantis has some good points”
“NO HE DOES NOT DONT SAY THAT” cue argument about what hes actually doing and that one policy that only kind of makes sense doesnt make desantis anything anyone should be listening to
no its about the kids not trans erasure. MAYBE FOR YOU ITS ABOUT KIDS OR SMTH but for the majority of the conservatives its about trans erasure WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING.
don’t even get me started on fucking covid vaccines. “this study says… myocarditis, autism, mrna blah blah” “which study” “they exist theres data” “ok i believe you show me these studies” “well i cant find the studies now i feel stupid gets upset but doesnt think shes wrong still”
once she brought me a “study” and the results said “THE DATA IS INCONCLUSIVE AND FURTHERS PROVES THE BENEFITS OUTWEIGHT THE NEGATIVES” and im like i dont know what to tell you this wasnt the study you think it is.
i don’t get how people can just be wrong and proven wrong over and over but still think theyre right. her parents shove right wing propaganda down her throat sadly.
I think it’s as simple as:
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired -Jonathan Swift
Just A Friend - Biz Markie
…
The way that I met her was on tour at a concert
She had long hair and a short miniskirt
I just got onstage drippin’, pourin’ with sweat
I was walkin’ through the crowd and gues who I met
I whispered in her ear, “Come to the picture booth
So I can ask you some questions to see if you are a hundred proof”
I asked her her name, she said blah-blah-blah
I took a couple of flicks and she was enthused
I said, “How do you like the show?”
She said, “I was very amused”
…
I’m starting to think that the correct way to address these types of things is with a simple, possibly even loving, “that’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard”.
A lot of poorly reasoned opinions and ideas come from socially validated sources, they parrot the opinions of people they identify with. Showing that you won’t agree to get along, might work as a counter both to their spewing the shit as well as maybe letting them question why they hold that belief.
Might also make them stop coming to you with these types of opinions, which may or may not be what you want.
Works quite well in person unless the person is literally beyond logic and saving
It’s really hard for people to completely deny close friends with hard evidence in person (usually saying your line results in them asking why and then you can search stuff up on your phone or something), much easier with the distance of social media
I’m afraid to ask… what is “red pill mentality”?
In The Matrix (1999) the protaganist takes a red pill, discovers he’s been living in a simulation, and what the world is the really like.
‘Red pill’ has been co-opted by various far right movements to mean someone finally sees the ‘truth’.
Most commonly it’s used by incels and misogynists. Think Andrew Tate and various pickup artist influencers.
Good grief, that’s a bit of a stretch.
Oh, but it gets better than that.
The Wachowskis, who directed the Matrix and transitioned, have admitted that the Matrix is actually in large part a trans allegory. Apparently one the pills used to transition was literally a red pill.
Which is why, if I remember correctly, when at one point Ivanka Trump and Elon Musk tweeted about taking the red pill, one of the Wachowskis replied that they should go fuck themselves.
Ah, what a time to be alive.
That moment was probably peak social media. Along with Lewinski winning the internet with that word play joke.
The Wachowskis, who directed the Matrix and transitioned, have admitted that the Matrix is actually in large part a trans allegory.
Source?
The work is not exactly subtle if you are even casually familiar with aspects of the trans experience.
The Matrix is a ‘trans metaphor’, Lilly Wachowski says
“I’m the best, I’m gonna be the best at everything, fuck feminists, worship millionaires because they are rich” That sort of stuff. The funny thing is that 90% of people who think like that don’t even know what the word feminist actually means…
Also, the Matrix is a trans allegory/metaphor, and the red pill is based on one of the hormone pills the Wachowskis likely used to transition.
Somebody has recommended you street epistemology already. An important part of it is to talk using the same concepts.
I say this because my understanding of the red pill comes from the documentary The Red Pill. It roughly means that you are aware of the issues men face in modern societies and care about them. That caring about men’s rights does not mean that you hate women.
And because of that I initially thought that trying to convince someone that “red pill mentality is stupid” was the stupid thing.
Your made it to 2023 without hearing about this shit?
I’m veeery late on the technology and culture wave. I only discovered reddit last year and use a smart phone when I absolutely have to.
Ask them to define concepts instead of using catchwords
You can’t reason someone out of a position that they didn’t reason themselves into.
Fascists and other Frauds tell the Little Man that he is a loser; that he is being ripped off by the Bad People; that his whole class or gender or race are being taken advantage of by their inferiors. They play to the Little Man’s anxieties, making him feel littler and more stepped-upon.
This is all a lead-in to telling the Little Man to sign up for the Big Lie.
You don’t. That person is lost.
