• Ukraine destroyed columns of waiting Russian soldiers with HIMARS, a Ukrainian commander said.
  • He said Ukraine targeted them as soon as it got permission to use allied weapons across the border.
  • Military experts say Ukraine’s ability to use Western-supplied weapons in Russia is aiding its fightback.
  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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    4 months ago

    I wish they didn’t have to wait for things like this. It sucks that Ukraine is at the whims of other countries while it’s trying to fight to maintain its sovereignty.

    • chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      It makes me so depressed thinking about how many thousands of Ukrainian lives could’ve been saved by just giving Ukraine full and enthusiastic support immediately instead of dragging it out this long.

      • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
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        4 months ago

        This was done on purpose so the crisis didn’t escalate. There’s no world police to prevent Russia from nuking everyone. It’s better for outside actors to focus on de-escalation anyway.

        Also, Putin is not doing this because of Ukraine. I mean that’s part of it, but he is doing it for domestic appeal. He wants to appear tough to Russian citizens. Two situations allow that: beating Ukraine easily, and losing to NATO forces. He knows NATO will not risk invading Russia, so he’s in no real danger from the second one.

        NATO is intentionally not intervening because it makes Putin look weak domestically. Russia has created their own problem and the war will not end until the people of Russia demand it.

        • aodhsishaj@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          The only thing that modern diplomacy teaches nation states today is that they need to get nukes as quickly as possible

          • rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
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            4 months ago

            Nukes are good, but in fact full arsenal, from home-produced small mortars to MRBMs, and a standing military. Actually, if possible, all the means of power projection the big guys have. Including even proxy militants. Because the big guys back up their words with the blood of the small guys anyway.

            • aodhsishaj@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              You’re speaking about the means of which to project military power on the ground with direct action, I’m talking about the nature of nuclear weapons as a deterrent and how that changes the way soft and hard power is applied.

              Nukes make it so that no direct combat need ever take place, look at NK or the inverse where we are applying sanctions against Iran for a current parallel.

              • rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
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                4 months ago

                It requires very rigid discipline to threaten your enemy with MAD. The more tasks you can solve without testing your own faction’s discipline, the better. If every parking place argument gets to threats of nuking the opponent, because you can’t threaten anything else, either eventually you’ll have to use MAD for such a small cause, or you’ll step back on that and then there’ll be something a bit more important over which you’ll threaten MAD.

                And so on, until MAD is in practice useless for you.

          • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
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            4 months ago

            No it doesn’t. The US especially has spent a ton of money building up countries it has defeated in war.

            The prime minister decides that their only course of action is to declare war on the United States. Expecting a quick and total defeat (since their standing army is tiny and equipped with bows and arrows), the country confidently expects to rebuild itself through the largesse that the United States bestows on all its vanquished enemies

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

    • SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      That’s Putin’s doing. His bluff was strong and he had a big pile of material, so the West is using a Russia technique known as the salami slice method, by slowly escalating and gauging the reaction from Putin. It means no world war 3 scenario, no allies that have to come to his defense and also not letting Putin taking whatever he wants with just bluff and threatening speeches. It is costly in lives and material though.

      • bean@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Can’t make salami without grinding meat I guess. As dark as that sounds. I thank every soul who’s been fighting against that thugtatorship.

    • SuspiciousCatThing@pawb.social
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      4 months ago

      And we (the US) have so much support that we could be giving to them but we’re not. We’d rather enable genocide elsewhere.

  • kescusay@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    Good. Make Russian civilians see the horrors of the war they support personally.

      • PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
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        4 months ago

        Russian civilians weren’t targeted, the missile was intercepted by russian air defense on its way to a military target. The shrapnel happened to fall on that beach.

        Edit: If you’re thinking of holidaying in an active warzone, perhaps reconsider.

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          That was an ATACM missile with a cluster bomb warhead. Not “shrapnel”.

          Edit: If you’re thinking of holidaying in an active warzone, perhaps reconsider.

          So you’re saying israelis holding a rave next to a concentration camp should have reconsidered their location on Oct7?

          • PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
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            4 months ago

            That was an ATACM missile with a cluster bomb warhead. Not “shrapnel”.

            It was an “ATACM missile with a cluster bomb warhead” until russian air defence turned it into shrapnel

            So you’re saying israelis holding a rave next to a concentration camp should have reconsidered their location on Oct7?

            Yup.

            Although not sure why we’re talking about Israel now, this conversation was about Russia blaming ukraine for bombing intentionally civilians when they were actually attempting to bomb legitimate military targets, likely in sevastapol bay.

            The Oct7 attack isn’t even comperable, civilians were actively targeted there, not so here

      • Prandom_returns@lemm.ee
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        4 months ago

        “Targeted”. (Likely just an intercepted missile)

        They’re on a fucking beach, on illegally occupied land, during an active war. I’m pretty sure they knew the risk.

        Play stupid games, grow 🌻

      • andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        Last thing I remember yesterday many condemned Israel for announcing it’s land development program that is gossiped as planned on occupied territories. Today there were news of a shitbag minister who voiced a plan to take the West Bank under a military rule (and to convert it into profits?), and I don’t see many support to him there as well. Would it be too cynical to ask wtf these settlers would be doing there?

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Condemning israel is like condemning Russia when they kill civilians. Rather easy. Of course people were praising israel initially but we’re past that.

          The fun part is now the Ukrainan resistance is doing what the Palestinian resistance was doing and asking why people react so differently.

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              The fun part is watching people do mental gymnastics to condemn Hamas but praise Ukraine. Both have committed war crimes while resisting occupation, but we seemingly only care when one of them does so.

                • joonazan
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                  4 months ago

                  Does it matter? A discussion is not about signalling that you support the correct side even though social media seems to think so.

      • Tarquinn2049@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I’m sorry that this is the best job you can find right now. It can’t be a very fun job. But you are also kind of bad at it, you should at least try to make the post sound like a real human could possibly think the things that are said.

        • PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
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          4 months ago

          Proximity doesn’t matter, the beach is in the flight path so it could be anywhere between the launching point of the missile and the target

          • cygnus@lemmy.ca
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            4 months ago

            Wuh-wuh-wuhddabout… Get a new tactic. That one is completely worn out at this point.

            For our other readers, those missiles were intended for the military facilities nearby and were shot down by Russian AA and debris fell on the beach (hence the lack of explosions)

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              If the comment said “I hope israeli civilians see the horrors or war” I’m sure you would be just as generous with your thought process. Oh wait you’d be calling him straight up Genocidal.

              There is no whataboutism cluster munitions are illegal and this is a war crime. This is not debris this is the ATACKMS filled with m74 bomblets.

              Just be consistent in your morals. This is like someone defending Hamas gunning down non combatants.

          • Blumpkinhead@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            What does the proximity of the kibbutzes to Israeli military bases have to do with anything? Did Hamas accidentally murder civilians in their homes while trying to go after legit targets?

            “Oops, we missed the military base and accidentally cut this old guys head off with a garden hoe and machine gunned some families hiding in their homes! Honest mistake!”

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              The guy said “I hope Russian civilians see the horrors of war”

              And using cluster munitions is banned. Did Ukraine oopsie a wrong rocket? Honest mistake!

              • cygnus@lemmy.ca
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                4 months ago

                And using cluster munitions is banned.

                TFW you don’t know how treaties work

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  So if israel kills Palestinian civilians… first does Hamas get the right to kill israelis indiscriminately?

                  You don’t know how international law works. Cluster munitions are banned. But sure keep on defending civilians being killed. Just a very reasonable person on Lemmy defending the killing of Russian civilians after someone wishes they see the horrors of war.

              • Blumpkinhead@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Civilians weren’t intentionally targeted by Ukraine, unlike Hamas, who happily murders children.

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  Less than 3% of the israelis killed by Hamas on October7 were children.

                  40% of the people killed by this “unintentional cluster bombing” were children

                  Mhhh

      • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        It’s funny because you are still allowed to post these shit takes, but if you switched Hamas and Russia you’d be banned from .ml at light speed.

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Did you notice the guy above me wishing bad things to happen to civilians or you just wanna keep ignoring that.

      • Cornpop@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I mean those are some stupid russians to be chilling on the beach at the edge of an active war zone

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Ukraine is fighting to survive.

          Yes that’s what Hamas is doing. They are in a far more precarious spot than Ukraine too. Israel was committing Genocide in Gaza far before Oct7. Which makes the comparison wrong.

          Russia is comparable to israel. Invading and annexing land by killing people. Hamas is the party resisting occupation just like Ukraine.

          If we put the double standards away everyone would start condemning Ukraine right now like they were/are condemning Hamas. Using cluster munitions on civilians is not a great look. What’s different? How the media sells the story?

          • PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
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            4 months ago

            Who’s using cluster munitions on civilians? The missile was intercepted on the way to it’s actual target. They weren’t targeting that beach

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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              That might be what happened. But as we see the cluster bombs did not explode during interception. Instead they landed all over a beach of people on annexation vacation. There’s a reason why cluster bombs are banned.

              But in any case. These are the “horrors of war” which the original commenter was hoping Russian civilians would be seeing no?

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  https://disarmament.unoda.org/convention-on-cluster-munitions/

                  The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) prohibits under any circumstances the use, development, production, acquisition, stockpiling and transfer of cluster munitions, as well as the assistance or encouragement of anyone to engage in prohibited activities. The text of the Convention is available for download in the six official UN languages: عربي, 中文, English, français, русский, español.

  • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
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    4 months ago

    “So sad that the Ukrainian government cares so little about it’s people it is giving Russia an excuse to demolish Ukraine.”

    - Some Israel Supporter, probably

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      I’m waiting for these wars to finally come full circle and for Israel to start selling Russia weapons it got from the United States on the cheap.

  • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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    Military experts say Ukraine’s ability to use Western-supplied weapons in Russia is aiding its fightback.

    Wow, thank God for that expert analysis.

  • RyanLiu@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    “Destroyed"? Don’t you mean “killed” columns of Russian soldiers? Even if they are in the wrong, these are still lives that are lost, not some equipment.

    • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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      In the military it’s common to talk about groups of soldiers the same way you talk about equipment. Because the crucial information isn’t their humanity, it’s their utility to the war effort. “Destroyed” is usually used to mean a unit is so broken it must be combined with other units and different militaries have different definitions of exactly how many casualties that takes.

  • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    Striking those Russian oil and gas facilities really seemed like the thing that made actual impact. But that damaged global trade which America wasn’t a fan of.

    • Weirdmusic@lemmy.world
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      Ukraine has both tactical and strategic plans for striking Russian oil and gas facilities. Strategically it’s important to hit these facilities as reducing output results in a long term slowdown in Russia’s ability to wage war on its neighbours. Tactically it’s a way of both boosting Ukrainian morale and also (most interestingly) forcing the US to help resupply Ukraine.

      By reducing Russian production, Ukraine is pushing up oil and gas prices which affects the World and, more importantly, the US economy. Due to the US election cycle, inflation is a hot button topic in the US ATM and the Biden administration will do just about anything it can to reduce its impact on the upcoming Presidential election.

      It’s entirely valid to conclude that the Ukrainian’s can bring pressure on the US to provide military aid by attaching Russian oil and gas assets.

      Let me be clear: I’m on the side of the Ukrainians.

      • SkyezOpen@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I’m not following. The first part makes sense, but wouldn’t driving gas up make Ukraine less popular and less likely to get US aid?

        • Weirdmusic@lemmy.world
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          That’s a good question. The answer lies not so much about the general popularity and sympathy for Ukraine but rather the amount of pressure Ukraine can exert on the the present US administration to leverage more military aid.

          The Ukrainians are aware of the level of sympathy they have in the US as the plucky underdog in this conflict. Striking oil and gas targets deep inside Russia doesn’t diminish this but rather underlines and reinforces the situation. However, reducing the supply of oil and gas impacts the price of oil and gas and has a knock on effect on inflation.

          The majority of Americans don’t consciously make that connection, they just feel the pinch in their hip pocket. For better or worse inflation is commonly viewed as domestic issue and this is reinforced by the retoric of those on the right of US politics. So, for many inflation is Joe Biden’s fault.

          Therefore, by attacking these targets or threatening to, the Ukrainians can bring the very real pressure on the Biden administration. The President has to continue to show support to the Ukrainians (both moral and materiel) while attempting to rein in the Ukrainians ability and desire to strike deeply at oil and gas targets in Russia.

          It appears that this delicate balancing game is ongoing with the US administration pressuring their opponents in the Congress to back down on defunding the Ukrainians while at the same time convincing the Ukrainians to back off a little and focus more on military targets.

      • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I support Ukraine too but throwing Ukrainian soldiers into the meat grinder is a lost cause.

        What Russia does care about (and needs to keep their invasion going) is money. Which Russia mostly makes from their oil and gas.

        So America not allowing Ukraine to hit Russia where it actually hurts means Putin has no reason to agree to a ceasefire. His money keeps flowing and he can keep his war economy going.