Thank you for not calling us LatinX, I’ve yet to meet a Latino who doesn’t hate that.
I’ve never understood LatinX. Is it supposed to be a gender neural Latino/Latina? I’m only a Spanish beginner but I’m fairly sure Latino can be masculine and gender neutral.
“LatinX” was indeed the first attempt at a gender neutral description. “Latino” is still considered by many native speakers to be “neutral”, but the most feasible solution I’ve seen popping up is the “latine” (as in “estudiante”, “vigilante”, etc). Since it uses an explicitly non-gendered suffix, it is more correctly inclusive than the “latino”. It will take a while though, und until it is really widely adopted.
“Latino” is still considered by many native speakers to be “neutral”
So like, is there any sizeable Latin community actually calling for a gender neutral term or is this just a middle-class white people thing? Because as a white person I’ve never seen anyone push for this other than white people and it just seems like a white savior/ daddy knows best thing. But my experience is just my experience
There are some people who identify as Latinx. Pew puts it at 2-3% of Latin Americans, usually those who are non-binary.
I think the reason that it has the astroturfed white middle class vibe is that it’s really been pushed by corporate culture for whatever reason, who use it as catch all for all Latin Americans which clearly doesn’t line up with how the majority self-identify.
My experience is also your experience.
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That is what I myself thought on the first place, but it’s more of a “global” movement. It’s not just “white people”, but rather also native Spanish speakers learning nuances of other languages, plus Gender Studies research, etc.
I am trans and Latina and it is totally a thing. We have queer people too, we come in all the normal colors and a few weird ones too.
Do you know any queer/non binary Latinos?
There is John Leguizamo, though it definitely feels like he’s trying to manage his waning popularity as a c-lister.
I never liked him much until he guest hosted the Daily Show earlier this year. He was terrific.
I swear I replied to this and then both my reply and your comment disappeared 🤷🏼♀️
Thank you for the explanation. Is “le” as an indirect object pronoun the same kind of gender neutral example? I’m really struggling with that atm. Every noun is going to be gendered except him and her?! I suck at languages.
Well, I’m no expert. I just enjoy learning languages and am a native Spanish speaker myself. With regards to the grammar I’m quit lost in my own language, but I can tell you this:
- “le” is was and always has been neutral. It and the other examples I gave are just the basis that shows that Spanish is capable of implementing gender neutrality/equality.
- I don’t know if you know any Spanish, but every single noun is already gendered. This is more about pronouns getting another third person singular pronoun, and also trying to expand the base of the language and noun or adjectives that are already gendered to include this gender neutrality + equality.
I hope I could answer your question properly, but of not, feel free to elaborate.
Thanks for that! I’ve been learning Spanish for about a year now, but on my own and I don’t know anyone who speaks it. I’m very much still a beginner. I learnt French at school so the idea of gendered nouns wasn’t so much of a problem, but for someone reason indirect object pronouns (I also had no idea what this meant in my native tongue!) have been tripping me up.
“Me gusta mucha esta falda, pero le no quiero comprar” for example. I don’t understand why I’m using “le” when the “it” I’m talking about is feminine.
Or if I want to say “I’ll ask her for her number” it’s “le pediré su numero” (I think, I’m not sure I’ve got the verb form for pedir correct). But what if a boy and girl are standing next to each other, how do you know I’m talking about her if le is gender neutral?
And then sometimes duolingo tells me it’s “la” and I have no idea why! Duo isn’t great for learning more than the basics imo though. I’m sure it will become more natural/easier/I’ll stop over thinking it eventually. It seems like such a silly thing to get caught on, but here I am!
I’ve spoken about this in a learn Spanish sub and someone recommended a book called “English grammar for students of Spanish” or something similar and it’s SO helpful, because no one has ever taught me what an “indirect object pronoun” is in English so it made it really difficult to even describe what I didn’t understand, if that makes sense? Clearly I need to read some more of that book!
Well, a couple things to correct: “me gusta esta falda, pero no la quiero comprar” (la falda, therefore feminine “la”, so you were correct in your assumption :))
“Le pediré su número”, is more roughly transated to “I’ll ask for their number”, which like in English might shine some light on how you could be more specific, by providing extra information about the indirect object in question in your sentence to remove uncertainty: “Le pediré su número a él/a ella” (in your two cases)
Like I said, I’m no good when it comes to grammar, but I can tell you, that there are just so many languages, and many have features that others just don’t (like Russian has no article (definite or indefinite), Arabic has verbs that depend on the gender of the speaker, etc). With Spanish I just know that the biggest hurdles are the past tense, and the gerundive, but I can’t really point you to a good resource other than a book I kind of saw a while back: Pons. I read the “german version” (I think) for learning Spanish (I was tutoring at the time), and it was quite informative but dense. Maybe there’s something for you there as well.
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If someone knows a YouTube video or something about this, I’d be interested.
I don’t know about videos, but here is an article
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We already have “Latin”, which has been in common use for generations.
Not to mention who gives a shit about gendered language. It’s a non issue.
Anyone who teaches at a university should be banned from trying to come up with new words, they’re invariably so removed from real life they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. Ivory tower bullshit.
I don’t know where you come from or what languages (apart from English) you might speak, but:
- “Latin” in Spanish means the same on English: Latin, as in the sense of the language spoken by the romans. I don’t think there is a single Spanish speaking country that calls latine “latin”.
- Most languages (including Spanish) have gendered nouns. German even has 3. Swedish has 2 (although those are “common” and “neutral”.
- Language evolves with time. It’s not “professors teaching new words”, it’s actually society coming up with new words. The Swedish even got themselves (relatively recently) a new third person pronoun noun specifically for a neutrally gendered/ungendered person. It is now part of the language’s standards. Even the Germans are having quite difficulty trying to make their nouns more inclusive, since (like Spanish) most nouns are used in a “masculine is the standard” (for lack of a better description).
Hope that makes it clearer.
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It was first seen in online queer activist circles around 2004. You can read a little about it here. Latino is traditionally masc/neutral but English style guides also said the same about “he” when referring to someone of unknown or unspecified gender for a long time, which has largely fallen out of use for singular “they” now.
Personally, I don’t use Latinx in writing to refer to all Latinos/Latinas as polling has shown only 2-3% of people readily identify with it. But I do think you absolutely should use it if that’s how someone personally identifies.
Am I the only one who reads LatinX as rhyming with larynx?
I read it as a Latino fetish porn site.
I read it like latinks
Yeah
For some reason people get violently ill when they see someone use pronouns on the internet, so they came up with an alternative words so that their ideas match up with reality.
I’m not Latino, but I feel like that would annoy me. Latin@ as well. The language is gendered, trying to eliminate that is absurd.
I think it’s a generational thing because I remember the @ being more widely used in the 90s, especially when the internet cafés were getting popular.
It’s coming around though. My gf watches a garbage amount of influencer bullshit, mostly mainstream streamers and such, and I’ve heard it quite a number of times.
How many of them are actually Latino though? It seems like a term created and made popular by white liberals
Lol all of them. We in Mexico. You’d probably be surprised that lgbtq people exist here on huge and proud numbers. Or would you also just assume they’re white liberals cosplaying?
I’ve been told on the bird site that I’m just a white liberal cosplaying… But I’m very much latino. Lol
A decent chunk of them. Around 3 percent of latino/Latina identify as Latinx
LatinEs
Guácala, no. Prefiero mil veces latinx.
A mi no me molesta, los de habla inglesa estan tratando de mejorar. Si algun latino lo dice en castellano ahi empiezan los problemas.
perdoname la mala autografia
A mí tampoco me molesta ni que lo digan en español. La verdad no entiendo todo este lío que parece provenir de algún tipo de orgullo antimalinchista. 🤷♂️
Digo, tenemos hasta un antro aquí a la vuelta que se llama Xico y en redes seguido lo escriben como Xicx porque su branding es inclusividad.
I’m a latinx who doesn’t hate latinx while living in a latinx country. It’s not popular, but we’re here.
Yeah it sounds like something Musk would conjure up.
Rent free
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😢
Gotta be a troll.
The colonizer is strong in this one.
Hush now, she just loves really hard.
I just know she wrote this while sipping a Starbucks and wearing big sunglasses while indoors.
Lol latinos, where the original colonizers g. Anglo-Saxon’s only made it amore profitable venture.
Btw Latinos made it profitable but that was when we still where speaking Latin
I’m here to say something stupid as well. Happy dumbassing everyone!
I haven’t seen a mouthbreathing comment section like this since I left reddit. This is incredible.
So far it isn’t as bad as I feared. It’s very early days though! I’m really keen to create a community where we can discuss any topic including contentious ones respectfully, rather than just avoiding posting anything that could bring out the trolls. I’m hoping the one-warning-then-you’re-banned rule will be sufficient to keep the worst at bay. Please report comments that break the rules if you see them to help keep this community an enjoyable place to be!
Good luck.
Oh I am going to need it. Thanks!
irish american
3/78ths irish. The fries you get at McDonalds are more irish than them
went to NYC with my (actual, County Cork) Irish friend. His deadpan “Oh yeah, where in Ireland are you from?” went over most people’s heads.
People don’t understand that if you make shit up you just get laughed at
That depends on what you make up. If you make up the right thing you’ll get celebrated by other people who like to make things up.
Leave it to a white person to think they just get to use words however they want regardless of their actual definitions. SMH
OP isn’t ignorant because they’re white, they’re ignorant because of the impact of their social economic class on their education, life experience, and world view.
Your comment opening with:
“Leave it to a white person to…” Is blatant racism.
Thats a good explanation. I’m saving that for future use. It seems easier to empathise with these people when you understand that they’re a product of their environment and as much victims of the system as anybody else.
Yeah but it’s the cool kind of racism that’s allowed so it’s okay!
If I can be racist against my very own (according to the 23 and me dealy i got for Christmas 4 years ago) kind, than you know what? Fine I’ll take that. White people, especially Americans who feel the need to preamble that with some other European nation like it was an additional qualifying ethnicity, suck. I dislike them. It’s like, ooh look at me I’m extra white. Fuck that. They are attention seeking children and a net negative for society.
The abscence of formal centralized definitions is kinda the bread and butter of the english language. All dictionaries are trying to describe how people use words, not what they mean.
It’s not amorphous enough fit it to ever be ok for a white+ American girl to just say she’s Latin because she feels like that’s just a state of mind. Language does not work like that.
“Leave it to [insert race]” is not exactly taking the high road here.
I’m pretty sure that as a white person I’m aloud to call out a type of behavior that has become all to common in white people.
You’re allowed to do a lot of things. What I’m really getting at is what kind of person it makes you.
I’m the kind of person who is sick of being lumped in with people who look like me. White people are not my people just because we have similar pigmentation but I’m certainly not going around claiming to be some other ethnicity because i think it’s a state of mind. I might have a chip on my shoulder. I was raised by a very active civil rights activist and this shit makes me sick.
First,
Leave it to a white person to think they just get to use words however they want regardless of their actual definitions. SMH
But then,
I’m the kind of person who is sick of being lumped in with people who look like me.
You’re very confused.
I believe you believe that
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You know latinx was coined by actually queer/NB latinx people, right? It’s not just a white people thing.
Right, but it is not and has not been used to describe queer white people. The OOP describes herself as Irish American who identified as Latinx because she “loves hard”, and that’s not how anything works.
What in the white privilege is this horseshit?
If you know how to dance “salsa”, “merengue” and “bolero” could be good llover…and apply for “latina”.
Could be good rain?
Llover is “to rain” in spanish.
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Lover, this keyboard wants be more smart than the writer.
I don’t care if you’re ethnically Asian or African or European. If you’re born here or have spent a significant portion of your life here–to me–you’re culturally latino.
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Obviously, yes. Especially when you are a member of a dominant ethnic group, cosplaying at being “other” when you will never be involuntarily othered, and explaining your (entirely illegitimate) choice via racial stereotyping.
It is absolutely not the same as identifying as gay or trans or whatever other besieged minorities you are slyly pouring scorn on. People don’t choose to get fucked over for who they are regardless of what they do. They are who they are and they’re surrounded by desperately insecure fuckwits who can only make themselves feel better by making the lives of others worse.
Kudos to you for even replying, let alone in such a calm way! 🙌🏼
I refuse to let people’s insecurities prevent me from being myself. All who oppose me shall know the apocalyptic hellstorm of my wrath. Those who would disparage me are the evil ones, and will always be. My enemy must be ripped from this world. I am what I know to be, and any who would doubt this doubt a true individual.
Bad faith arguments, bigotry and trolling are not acceptable in this community. Please read the rules in the sidebar before participating further. This is your warning.
Not to mention I think making the One Joke should be a bannable offense, personally
I feel triggered, not as a trans person, but as someone who enjoys humor
I’m trying to be fair mod and not too authoritarian while being committed to making this a welcoming and an enjoyable community for everyone. It’s a hard balancing act tbh, but I think the one-warning-then-you’re-banned rule is a reasonable middle ground. Tonight/tomorrow I’ll make a sticky post asking for additional mods and asking for feedback on the rules and how this community should be run so everyone can have a say. Please comment on that post, I am willing to listen to everyone and change the rules of it’s what the majority want.
"This is my warning. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My warning is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. …"
Somehow I don’t doubt you’ve gotten a lot of warnings.
"This is the single joke I know . There are many like it, but my brain can only store this one.
My one joke is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. …"
Zing!
You know your One Joke doesn’t get any more original if you swap out the attack helicopter, right?
One Joke.
Your account is fucking wierd. Like I want to say you’re a troll, but it seems like you’re just a narcissistic arsehole.
You were so close with your assumption but since I’m 'Murican(pew pew), I’d be classified as an Imperial Asshole.
The meme is correct. OP is wrong. It can be genetics, becaus your parents were from there but it’s also a cultural thing, if you feel like it, you may be it. There’s noone stopping you from it.
OMB defines “Hispanic or Latino” as a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin (also known as ethnicity).
If your family isn’t Latino and you don’t have live in a Spanish culture, you’re not Latino. You’re certainly not Latino because you “love hard”.
Hispanic is if you come from a country of spanish descent. Latino is if you come from a Latin American country. People from Brazil are latinos but not hispanic.
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The Dominican Republic speaks Spanish but is not part of latin America. If you count them as part of latin America then so is Haiti but they don’t speak Spanish. Cultures and languages are complicated.
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Idk just trying to breakdown that definition that was provided because it’s lumping two cultures into one group kind of how some Americans will see all brown people as just mexicans. Why did you respond to me when I responded to some one else?
Half of my family is spanish speaking. My mom grew up bilingual, speaking Spanish at home with my grandma. I lived in Spanish-speaking countries in my twenties for a while and learned to speak spanish myself.
…I still never ever call myself Latino because I grew up in whitesville as a white kid. It never even occurred to me until I was older that I might technically be considered Latino. It just never really came up. The most I ever say is literally what I said in the first sentence. I really feel like deciding later in life to identify as Latino would be some weird kind of appropriation. I don’t look Latino, I didn’t experience anything like a Latino outside of visiting my family and being surrounded by Latinos.
I’ve come across people in very similar situations to me, who do identify as Latin and they explained to me that they decided later in life to start saying it. It just feels…wrong to me. Can you find out after living a super white existence that you may get to qualify as a minority group (in the context of living in the US, that is.) I say no.
I have a similar experience to you. I’m British with an Irish father and a half-Iranian mother. I’m still British because I was born and live in the UK. My cousins would piss themselves laughing if I suddenly declared I was Irish!
Yep. My father was British. I was born in the U.S. I don’t call myself British or English. That’s stupid. I could even get citizenship if I wanted, but if I did, the closest I would come to calling myself British would be ‘British subject.’ I’m American. Unless I do a fake accent, that’s quite clear.
“British subject” sounds very American! “Having British citizenship” sounds more, well, British. And I think you automatically have British citizenship because your dad was English. But don’t hold me to it.
Connecting with your heritage is a legitimate thing, as long as you actually do it and don’t just say it. And as long as you don’t get ridiculous about it.
I’m in a smilar boat as you, my mom is a Mexican citizen but I grew up white af. I could start exploring my Mexican heritage more but I would always have to keep in mind that I grew up white and not pretend otherwise.
I was reading it wrong … You are not latina because you love hard.
Thanks for your definition. Hispanic is someone with spanish culture. That was my point.
Hey, at least you were confidently incorrect 😉
😂
I followed the link you used:
These standards generally reflect a social definition of race and ethnicity recognized in this country, and they do not conform to any biological, anthropological, or genetic criteria. . . . Persons who report themselves as Hispanic can be of any race and are identified as such in our data tables.
I thought the OP was ridiculous but apparently, if they genuinely identify with the culture then she might technically be correct.
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I think it’s saying that as the census is self reported, she can identify herself as Latino even if it doesn’t reflect societal definitions of race and ethnicity. Not that she’d be correct to do so.
Think of Rachel Dolezal.
So the definition of what “Latino” is comes from… the US institutions?
The person in the tweet is American so I used the American census definition. I’m pretty confident any reputable source doesn’t count “loving hard” as a valid reason to identify as Latino.
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The Middle East gets overlooked in the UK too. My dad is Irish, my mum is half Iranian and half English. She usually ends up ticking the “mixed - other” box. I can’t recall if the UK even has an “hispanic” option.
They certainly don’t have a Hispanic option when choosing where to eat😭
In the UK? My favourite restaurant is an independent Spanish tapas bar! It’s only a 15 minute walk away so I eat there more than my waistline would like! Isn’t there a tapas chain in the UK too? I can’t think of the name now. But yes, I wish there were more!
Obviously the “loving hard” part is dumb, but I hope you see the irony on posting this tweet and then citing for the definition of “Latino” a website from a US institution
I think I quite clearly explained why I used the American definition for this American.
There are MILLIONS of Latinos in the US, wtf is this shit, the US isn’t allowed to describe its own people?
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It’s more complicated than that. Latinos in the US also have Native American blood (usually South American). They have a terrible history of persecution. Someone who’s from Spain isn’t “Latino”.
No, they are Hispanic. Spain is a Latin country however, like Portugal, France, Italy, Romania and a couple of other small European countries.
That’s not what Latino means in this context, it means specifically from Latin America.
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The link to the site is in my comment. You can find out for yourself what the OMBs current definition is, that’s if this is a genuine question and not asked in bad faith.
that’s if this is a genuine question and not asked in bad faith.
I’ve got some notions about which of those is likely true.
Me too, but I’ll give the benefit of the doubt once. The user has had their warning, they will be immediately banned if they break the community rules.
Judging by the amount of xenophobic shit I had to read today, I’d argue Russian trolls have finally arrived.
I’m afraid I’ve interacted with the two users skirting dangerously close to rules before - they appear to be real people. It might be tempting to blame bots and foreign interference but there’s plenty of “normal” people who either believe the crap they come out with, or just really like shit-stirring.
I think I’m fairly strict here though, it doesn’t matter if you’re a Russian bot or American basement dweller, you get one warning before a permanent ban. I’m open to feedback and suggestions on how this community it run though.
Read it again.
Thx 😅
You are not latina just because you love hard 😂
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Hurr durr, the world is black and white. Anything I don’t like is modern [insert opposing political party].
