It’s a situation that I have been expecting for a while, but I wasn’t fully ready to accept it. Specifically it’s one of my LGBTQ friends who honestly believes in the democrats will protect them and their partner. I have tried to make the point that both parties are eroding any sort of civility towards all marginalized groups, but fear seems to drive them more than logical observations. They make the excuse that change doesn’t happen over night and that the left continues to grow and will have meaningful affects down the road. I fundamentally just don’t agree with that idea and vocalize it regularly. More and more it is ending up in a circular argument where I am painted as unrealistic and my rhetoric (leftist rhetoric) is doing more harm than good because it promotes distrust in the only system we have to work with. I try to tell them it’s kind of the whole point. We gotta start somewhere if we want to see a better, more representative system, but they are so hung up on the immediate future while simultaneously saying that my idealistic feelings are shortsighted and I cant expect change in the immediate future… The double-talk is wild, I know.
I am trying my hardest to stop from engaging at this point because on the most basic level we agree on a lot of stuff, but they are just way to wrapped up in the fear mongering of the democratic party. They know that the two party system is broken, they know that something drastic needs to change, but they also think that they are powerless to do anything except choose the lesser evil. It pains me because I am watching them do the same shit past generations have done, where they give up on their ideals for the sake of preserving the current status quo that they benefit from. I am legitimately watching them imply “fuck you, got mine” under the guise of civic duty and I hate it. I want nothing more than to be able to finally say “I told you so” without being a smug asshole about it and ruining our friendship.
Thanks for reading my rant. It’s probably a bit disjointed, but the frustration is boiling over and I needed to vent to the only group of people that seems to understand the hopelessness of being a disenfranchised leftist.
I am proably gonna get banned for writing this, but be fucking realistic. I know it isn’t perfect, I know other parties exist, and I know the system is corrupt, but man up and deal with it.
The election is near, Trump has a very high chance of winning, and the whole country is on the tipping point of becoming a fascist regime.
Can you please use your brain and think for even just a little bit? Kamala isn’t perfect, but in the meantime it’s gonna hold together the country, and then you have 4 years to organize and vote for a better party, but in the meanwhile, voting anyone who isn’t kamala is voting for Trump.
Go on with the downvotes, I don’t care
man up
Trump has a very high chance of winning, and the whole country is on the tipping point of becoming a fascist regime.
Check
Can you please use your brain
Check
I can’t believe you just came in here and roleplayed the exact lib mentality that the thread has been about…
Libs really don’t have any self awareness.
Go on with the downvotes, I don’t care
For what it’s worth, Hexbear doesn’t have downvotes, so peddle your Reddit tripes somewhere else please. Also, you do care otherwise you wouldn’t mention it.
man up
Kamala isn’t perfect
Kamala is happily enabling a genocide and wants the American armed forces to be “the most lethal” in the world.
and then you have 4 years to organize and vote for a better party
I heard this before 2012. And before 2016. And before 2020. I no longer buy the argument.
Go on with the downvotes, I don’t care
We here at hexbear can’t downvote. You probably will get/have gotten some downvotes, but they haven’t been from hexbear.
I heard this before 2012. And before 2016. And before 2020. I no longer buy the argument.
You failed to organize. The 4 years were given to you, and you (as in the commies living in the US) failed. Time to practice harm reduction and avoid Trump. I’m not from the US nor do I live there, so there’s not much I can do.
Kamala is happily enabling a genocide and wants the American armed forces to be “the most lethal” in the world.
And Trump wants to do both that AND a genocide inside the country towards LGBTQ people, women, and black/Hispanic people in general.
Which do you prefer?
EDIT: just now, browsing Lemmy, I came across this article to further prove my point https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/17/trump-wins-elections-outcomes-stakes
We here at hexbear can’t downvote.
And that’s my bad for not knowing it. Sorry.
If it’s because of the implied gender, I’m also sorry and should have chosen a better expression. If it’s for the meaning, think again. Not everything is perfect in life and sometimes you need to make compromises. Learn now before it’s too late
I’m sick of arguing with people about electoral politics, so let me just ignore most of your response and address only the end, because maybe I can make a positive difference to your worldview there.
The issue with the phrase “man up” is not only that it implies your interlocutor is a certain gender. That’s a bit of an issue, sure, because assuming men are the default humans is pretty misogynist. However, the real misogyny of the phrase is much more insidious than just assuming everyone is a man. What the phrase “man up” does is inextricably tie strength of character to manhood and masculinity. And that’s misogynist tripe. Womanhood and femininity have as much strength inherent in them as manhood and masculinity. Men are not morally stronger than women, so exhorting someone to moral strength by telling them to be more like a man is full on misogyny. Yes, it’s the type that’s so normalized in our culture that you can be forgiven for not seeing it, especially if you yourself are a man (which you may or may not be, I don’t know). But please, excise the phrase “man up” from your vocabulary.
Completely agree on that one. I always try to not imply anything, but being a white man, sometimes things slip thru. Sorry.
Hey, I’m sorry, but I need to hammer this in, because brainworms burrow deep and I’d like to make sure you understand yours. The issue isn’t simply that you implied something you didn’t mean to imply, that’s true so far as it goes, but the more important part is what you implied. That’s the problem. If you take away from this experience “I need to write more carefully on the internet so people don’t read anything into what I’ve written” that’s an ok lesson, but it isn’t the one I’m hopeful you’ll learn. My hope is that you’ll come away with something more like “wow, I seem to have some internal feeling that men are morally stronger than women, I wonder where that came from and how I can go about unlearning this feeling.”
I want you to deprogram the underlying misogyny, not just learn to disguise it better, you know? Still, thanks for admitting fault, that’s hard to do on the internet.
but in the meantime it’s gonna hold together the country
Have you considered that Kamala’s worthless neo liberal economic policy, racist border policy, and hawkish right wing foreign policy will ensure fascism? A vote for for Kamala is a vote for 4 years of stagnant decline and imperial embarrassment that brought about trump in the first place, ripe for a competent fascist to step in
Go on with the downvotes, I don’t care
Libs consider this bravery
Racist border policy?
By voting third party you’re helping the man who built a fucking wall next to Mexico, and you are also helping him deregulate every single industry that’s willing to give him money, creating an economic policy that’s far worse then you could ever imagine. Your vote for a third party isn’t showing any support to anyone whatsoever right now, it’s just helping Trump.
By supporting Dems you’re helping the party that literally helped build a fucking wall next to Mexico, proposed hundreds of millions for expanding it, deregulate every single industry that’s willing to give them money, oversaw the destruction of Roe v Wade, and countless billions on funding genocide and overseas war. The Democrats are trying to create a whole new border agency dedicated to ripping people out of their homes, just to prove how hard they are on immigration. Your support for Dems isn’t showing any support to anyone whatsoever right now, it’s just helping genocide and oppression.
and yet it’s still better then what Trump wants to do.
Yes, they helped build the wall, but Trump decided to make it.
to my knowledge, there wasn’t any major deregulation from the dems, much unlike what Trump wants to do (and Elon would be very happy to explain to you how that’s good, so you know it’s bad)
Yes, they oversaw the destruction of Roe V Wade, and yet it’s still nothing compared to the anti-lgbtq, anti-women laws that trump will pass once elected
Yes, they sent billions abroad for war
and you’ll never guess what
Trump sent just as much
so, choose your poison, and be realistic. (To the US citizens who are reading this, since you said you’re not). No third party’s gonna save you, at least this election, so practice good harm reduction, vote blue, and avoid a second Trump term
Yeah and trump is still better than electing a dog with rabies. If your baseline is “here’s a worse candidate” then you can clap for anything. It’s also completely debateable wether he’ll be worse. You are handwaving away several things as being insignificant, that aren’t.
and yet it’s still better then what Trump wants to do.
They deported more people.
Yes, they oversaw the destruction of Roe V Wade, and yet it’s still nothing compared to the anti-lgbtq, anti-women laws that trump will pass once elected
Bills that will pass anyway because the dems don’t give a shit about any of it. At least with Trump people like you went out to fight against it.
Yes, they sent billions abroad for war and you’ll never guess what Trump sent just as much
Do you think this is an argument for the dems? Yes they are just as bad, glad we agree.
Trump also oversaw the agreement to finally pull out of Afghanistan. The Biden regime decided the best way to help afghanis were to freeze all foreign assets. I’m sure the people being ruled over by taleban are grateful they also get to starve and their state has no money to finance renovations.to my knowledge, there wasn’t any major deregulation from the dems, much unlike what Trump wants to do
Apart from the tariffs on cheap EVs and solar cells and the union busting and the decreased requirements for freight trains which have led to seceral catastrophies? There’s definitely way more, I just can’t be arsed to look them up for a person I know will come with some dumbshit
response.so, choose your poison, and be realistic
The realistic option is to not normalize genocide. Voting for someone who is actively commiting a genocide will make things far worse than electing a guy who is like all the others, just a bit more obvious about it. The realistic option is to not give legitimacy to rulers who do these things. The realistic option is not to do something that has only yielded terrible results. Your line of argument has been trotted out since Nixon for gods sakes, and even then it was old!
“That’s the real issue this time,” he said.“Beating Nixon. It’s hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years.”
The argument was familiar, I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame, but “regrettably necessary” holding actions? And how many more of these stinking double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same.*- Hunter S. Thompson Fear And Loathing: On The Campaign Trail '72
I’m not voting 3rd party I’m voting for Hillary, she’s a Democrat
A vote for Kamala in 2024 is a vote for the competent fascist to rise in 2028
People have been making your argument for decades. Every single fucking election it’s widely claimed we’re on the “tipping point”, people everywhere said it last time with Trump, and what did he do when he got into power? Largely just continued the status quo of making everything gradually worse.
If anyone thinks voting remotely matters and they want change, they should vote third party. But as always, I don’t think voting will change anything no matter what.
Take half the fucking effort you put into this “Vote for genociders or get fascism” shit and put it into organising or direct action.
people constantly claim we’re on the tipping point because we are. Project 2025 has planned out every single step to ruin the country for everyone but the 1%, and if Trump can’t make it, someone else will. Last time Trump was unorganized and still caused massive chaos (Jan 6? Mexico wall anyone?). Republicans need to only win once to turn everything for the worse, and you are literally helping them. You had 4 years to get people to vote third party, and you failed. Now is time for harm reduction. Vote blue, especially if you’re in one of the swing states, and help everyone out like a true commie.
Take half the fucking effort you put into this “Vote for genociders or get fascism” shit and put it into organising or direct action.
I don’t live in the US, it was your (as in the commie people living there) job to organize, I just care about people’s well-being in general and recognize Trump’s distopian hellscape.
Kamala isn’t perfect, nobody is, not even you, but it’s currently the best chance America has.
people constantly claim we’re on the tipping point because we are.
That’s what they said the last time and the time before that and that and that and that and that and that. There’s alwys something that makes it so we just have to accept this rotten dog of a candidate. If the rule you followed has brought you to this, of what use was the rule?
Furthermore whenever the dems do win, what is said of the left? “Oh turns out we didn’t need them at all!” What happens when they lose? Then it is the fault of the left. We were on the tipping point last time as well and the dems have had 4 years to do something about it, you failed. Why should we vote for someone who will do nothing to take us back from the alleged brink we’re at?You had 4 years to get people to vote third party, and you failed.
The country was on the precipice of destruction last election and the one before that and so on. The dems have had decades to pull us back from the alleged brink. They have now had 4 years in power, yet here we are once again. You failed. The dems are looking to lose to Donald Trump, yet somehow we failed? The dems lost a massive lead to Donald Trump, you failed. If you are a realist, then accept reality.
Why should people vote for a party that constantly cries wolf, yet never does anything about the wolf apart from copying the wolfs’ policies, working with the wolf, calling for bipartisanship with the wolf party, bragging about how much more wolf-like they are than the wolf party and so on?There’s plenty of people voting third party or voting uncommited or abstaining from voting. Seems to me it has worked out completely well. I can imagine it’s hard to understand when you are only ever thinking about the current election and never what happened in the past or what the future brings, but most things aren’t done in a few years. I’m honestly impressed with how these movements are developing, considering the amount of ratfucking they’ve been subjected to.
Vote blue, especially if you’re in one of the swing states, and help everyone out like a true commie.
You really do not understand politics, do you?
Kamala isn’t perfect, nobody is, not even you, but it’s currently the best chance America has.
Did you think you had something here? “Nobody is perfect” is the dems ole-faithful. You can’t go pobodys nerfect about genocide.
Trump did bad things. So have the Dems. And sincerely describing someone who actively supports genocide as “not perfect” just shows what a disingenuous lib you are. Your version of “harm reduction” has, for decades, done nothing but emphasize and prolong the harm.
I don’t live in the US either. I just care about people’s wellbeing in general. You should recognise that literally wherever on the planet you live, that organising and doing direct action would be more productive than telling people anywhere that voting matters. What a fucking waste of political energy.
organising and doing direct action
I’m happy where my country stands at, thanks.
Your version of “harm reduction” has, for decades, done nothing but emphasize and prolong the harm.
Right, so let’s elect the guy who will do imminent and immediate harm, and a lot more of it, because that’s better obviously
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/17/trump-wins-elections-outcomes-stakes
just shows what a disingenuous lib you are
I am a realist. The genocide, at least for now, won’t stop, but we have the power to not make it worse. What do you chose?
I’m happy where my country stands at, thanks.
There it is. “I don’t care about anyone else, I like how my life is and want the status quo”. Do direct action and organise to help OTHERS, if your country is a super paradise then do direct action to pressure your government into condemning genocide. Sadly I think you won’t ever resort to actually doing something to help.
It’s not worth engaging, really. You clearly know all this and actually just don’t give a fuck.
I do care for people, hence why I’m writing here, in the hope of convincing even one person to vote the right person, since physically going there isnt feasible.
pressure your government into condemning genocide.
what if they already did? the US is such a huge economical power that no-one but themselves can push it towards a better future, and all the third party voters are doing is assuring that the genocide is gonna continue under Trump’s regime (since that’s basically what it is apparently, thank SCOTUS)
I do care for people, hence why I’m writing here, in the hope of convincing even one person to vote the right person, since physically going there isnt feasible.
YOU ARE DOING LESS THAN THE BARE MINIMUM YOU ARE ARGUING WITH STRANGERS ONLINE OH MY GOD AND YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE YOU’RE DOING SOMETHING! THIS IS FUCKING FUNNY HAHAHAHAHA
If you actually cared you’d spend the freetime you have to volunteer for a cause, the dems need people so go do something for them, since you care so much lmao. This isn’t for anyone, you’re doing this for you, because your brain gives you sweet sweet serotonine when you argue with strangers online
I’m happy where my country stands at, thanks.
The country is currently, according to you, on the tipping edge of something cataclysmic and you’re happy with that? Lmao
Right, so let’s elect the guy who will do imminent and immediate harm, and a lot more of it, because that’s better obviously
As opposed to the lady who will do imminent and immediate harm, but where dorks like you go outside and fight against it?
I am a realist. The genocide, at least for now, won’t stop, but we have the power to not make it worse. What do you chose?
You’ve been told quite a few times what people choose. A realist would accept the reality of the situation. A realist also wouldn’t have this idealistic dogmatic adherence to decades old arguments about “aw shucks just this one time we need to do it, because the other guy is actually way worse and way different”
In your case the realistic option would be to acknowledge that your candidate has a better chance of winning the election if she stops supporting a genocide, and instead of arguing with leftists online you put your energy towards pushing your candidate to make those concessions. What do you choose?
man up
Eat shit
I dont care
Suuuure
nice counter arguments
Jesus fucking christ you are dumber than a doorknob. Go back to reddit where they pretend to give a shit about civility. An ad hominem isn’t “when someone insults you” you massive dumbass. Go back to school. An ad homimen is when you tie the character of a person (in your case that would be “poor”) to the quality of their argument (in your case your arguments are also poor) as a way to discredit them instead of refuting them. “You are an idiot and therefore your argument is idiotic” <- That’s an ad hominem!
In case you’re wondering this also isn’t an ad hominem, though it’s a fallacy of some kind. Insulting you is just an insult, you hollow log of a person. Learn what fallacies are and eat shit and die
and the whole country is on the tipping point of becoming a fascist regime.
Why would I, a red fascist hate this?
because Trump is leading it, and last time I checked, industry deregulation and even more privatization of the public sector wasn’t something the communist values stood for
´because Trump is leading it
You’ve had 4 years to prepare for this. Sounds like you failed
The communist values
Please read a book I’m begging you. Start with settlers
I recently heard ‘genocide is a good option because it will promote long term peace’
pax romana
Can’t have war if you genocide all races
I know people say not to cut off the lib friends and I’m trying not to lose connections that have mattered to me, but it is hard to make myself bother with most of them anymore. I feel like they are just demonstrating they can’t be relied upon.
What am I saying, their complete return to “normal” and pretending covid isn’t dangerous is 100% demonstrating they can’t be trusted
people say not to cut off the lib friends
I think this is honestly just a big cope from people. I know how seriously they take their convictions when they say stuff like this because my militant masking and insistence on accomodations as an immunocompromised person since January 2020 has utterly destroyed my social life and I don’t just get to turn the other cheek about that, lol. So yeah, I’m with you. Fuck em. Your world will become far smaller, but what world? A world of people who will abandon you for this? For genocide? For an evening at Applebees? Kill the liberalism in your soul that makes you want to poison yourself in the company of these people and you can begin to figure out how to live.
My social circle is much smaller now and it sucks. But not as much as long covid would. Not as much as playing nice with white supremacist assholes who excuse genocide when it’s done against people with my skin color.
their complete return to “normal” and pretending covid isn’t dangerous
“Trust the science” liberals like when the “science” is skewed so it sounds like wine is a health and longevity supplement (it’s not; those old studies were bullshit ignored the other material conditions of the healthy and long lived people) and that covid is “over.” Basically, trust in the “science” that says more treats.
It’s maddening how many “trust the science” liberals – many of them tech and science nerds and professionals! – just ignore when I point out he science of airborne transmission, the science of long covid, the science that says the only way to be pretty safe is if we all mask the fuck up in respirators.
Because respirators somehow ruin the vibe and that’s what mattera most, even though they didn’t ruin the vibe earlier in the pandemic.
Most confusing of all are the ones who post about updated vaccines and free rapid tests being sent out – they act like they don’t know covid is worth caring about but then occasionally they say shit that demonstrates they know it’s still around, and go right back to gathering without masking
Covid has a peculiar connection to climate change for me: in both cases, the crisis didn’t go anywhere, it’s getting worse all the time, but “I fucking love science” bazingas in both cases want to look at hyped up “good news” then return to whatever they were already doing, trying to silence people for caring too much about either.
Yep. I should have realized covid wouldn’t be solved because of how climate change denialism is hegemonic but silly me, I thought people might be able to learn
right there with you – I foolishly thought it might be a turning point that actually made us wake up about climate change 🤦
There were two good weeks or so where it looked like it was going to be possible. Major outlets were running articles with headlines like “It’s weird how much of our lives was actually bullshit” and realizing that commuting to work is optional, etc. Then the reaction set in.
Are there any good books yet about the reactionary turn under Covid / after the George Floyd uprising?
There were two good weeks or so where it looked like it was going to be possible. … Then the reaction set in.
the whiplash from this wounded my heart and then my social circle. genuinely, truly, I had real hope again for a minute, and the way my own friends and family were so eager to just ignore the pandemic and get back to “Normal” shocked me and ruined my regard for those people.
I genuinely thought better of all of them, or I wouldn’t have been their friend.
That is a completely different, but totally valid topic that I wasn’t even thinking about in this moment. Because I also find that I cant be honest about that either. All my liberal friends know my stance and many of them have accepted it by just not including me in their plans anymore. Which I’m fine with, I hate public gatherings anyway, but yeah, most of them just shrug and say, “it’s endemic at this point”. As if that is a form of fucking protection. UUUUUUUGH!
The Venn Diagram is nigh a circle because the same brainrot underlies both forms of denying material reality
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you’re inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
I need to rewatch The Matrix.
It’s actually so good. All the matrix movies are despite what some would have you believe.
Agreed. The original is the best for many reasons, but every Matrix movie is just very good sci-fi with poignant themes way ahead of their time. The Animatrix is especially incredible, imo. Per a letterboxd review of Reloaded from 2021:
i was lied to for many years this movie fucks
Absolutely. Like I always liked reloaded when I was young because of the action sequences. Then as an adult I was like wait that’s only one good part …
Then as an adult I was like wait that’s only one good part …
Agreed. For lack of a better term, even the vibes stand out in each movie.
The vibes are excellent. I rewatched them all recently and was blown away by the vibes. So strong. Such a sense of itself many films lack.
And I will watch any movie choreographed by Yuen Woo Ping. He knows how to make human bodies fight in the most beautiful ways.
:keanu-whoa:
Honesty I’ve learned to just shut the fuck up about politics when talking to PoC or LGBTQ friends. For some reason a straight white guy saying “ACTUALLY YOU WILL LIKELY NEVER BE TRULY SAFE IN OUR LIFETIME” is not received well.
Yeah I genuinely feel bad talking about politics with people I know in the community, there’s nothing positive to say really.
Like, you could point out that the Dems were appealing to pro-immigrant sentiments 4 years ago as their humane line, and in the space of a toddler’s lifetime have decided to throw them under the bus. But what does it actually accomplish to make it plain that they’re just kinda screwed, I dunno.
Yeah, I specifically avoid that sentiment because I cannot control the way things I say will be interpreted. I would much rather keep my mouth shut because I’m not in the business of unintentionally offending people I care about.
Instead I try to convey it through the lens of my own experience to talk about the fears I have that lead me to feel how I do. Like how concerned I am about what is the next evil thing we are okay with now that we as a society have effectively given a pass to genocide enablers again.
deleted by creator
I don’t get it, look at what they’ve been saying about the palestinian genocide, then look at what they’re doing. How could anyone trust them??
Their neurotic defense or Biden, even now is completely unacceptable. No one should lead s country if they cannot complete a coherent sentence on live TV without a teleprompter.
Pokemon Blue MAGA bitch asses
The apparent uselessness of the “commander-in-chief” goes to show just how useless the electoral theatre is. It doesn’t matter if the hood ornament is a donkey or an elephant the harvester keeps going.
They are extremely powerful when Trump is in charge and are powerless when he is not. He may as well still be president.
I made the point today actually that I am honestly concerned where we go from here now that as a society we have pretty much accepted genocide.
I don’t know how much solace this is but genocide already has been an integral part of us-european societies for centuries. The only new thing is that the cracks in the foundation are becoming bigger and more visible. And I don’t know how the beast is going to lash out on it’s death bed.
USAmericans don’t care about foreigners at all so lying about them doesn’t even register
Obama lying about holding Wall Street accountable for the crash also didn’t register. They go by vibes, and they forget any revelation about any lies that happened more than a day ago.
The current sticking point with my wife is that it’s about getting control of the Supreme Court back, given the assumption that Alito and Thomas will retire/die and (a) the Democrats won’t appoint Alito’s/Thomas’s preferred successors in the name of unity, and (b) the Republicans won’t hold open the vacancy to get concessions and/or wait until a Republican president comes into office as they successfully did with Garland. Refusing to budge because of Palestine is “making this about me” and failing to understand that Harris needs the Jewish vote in PA (I pointed out that she also needs the Muslim vote in Michigan, no response).
Nobody else, even fairly close friends, has opined on politics around me and I don’t bring it up, so I’m not sure what everyone around me is thinking.
I just can’t understand how people have seen in this last year alone how blatantly broken the Supreme Court is as a system and their response is “we just have to play this broken game even harder”
especially when the odds of conservative judges dying and being replaced in the next 4 years are so slim in and of itself.
so much has happened this year alone that I thought would wake up libs even slightly…and it just hasn’t at all.I’m trying to leave the US primarily because of Alito and Thomas.
Obgerfell will likely be overturned next session. It will be horrific.
Kinda feeling like I should’ve skipped town when I had the chance but instead I chose to build a life here under the assumption that things could be fixed.
I have to leave. I came out of the closet after being in for 20 years (Thanks Oklahoma and Texas) and I got baby reindeered so bad I had to get a protective order. I’d my family finds out I will spend a five figures amount on legal fees to get more protective orders in place.
I hate having to take a paycut, but this is survival
Yeah, that is the major sticking point I have seen as well. Which I understand except for the other things you just laid out. I can’t comfortably trust that anyone of these ghouls is going to do right by citizens.
I’m just grateful for my friend who listens to my rants and admits I know way more about it than him.
Unfortunately he’s still just voting for Kamala
Every time we hang out is basically:
ok so I’m not deep enough into the hexbear rabbit hole but what do you propose voting then?
Some leftists will tell you that simply participating in American elections is an endorsement of our two party duopoly/oligarchy.
I’m writing in Claudia De la Cruz personally. Obviously she is not going to win, but I refuse to give Democrats my vote. They talk the talk, but do not stand for anything I agree with. In fact they are hardly bothering to pretend to be “progressive” anymore.
I don’t want tax credits for first time home buyers, I want the state to seize the assets of these corporations buying up all the homes in the country.
I don’t want legalized marijuana, I want the owners of private prisons shot and the justice system restructured from what is essentially slave labor to an actual rehabilitative system.
I don’t want tax credits for first time home buyers, I want the state to seize the assets of these corporations buying up all the homes in the country.
I don’t want legalized marijuana, I want the owners of private prisons shot and the justice system restructured from what is essentially slave labor to an actual rehabilitative system.
And so do I, but every vote that isn’t for kamala is basically a vote for trump, and he’s far worse
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/17/trump-wins-elections-outcomes-stakes
My state hasn’t gone blue since 1964 so that argument doesn’t even begin to work on me.
In that case, if you’re sure there’s absolutely no chance for a blue win, might as well vote PSL. In hindsight I should have known it would vary by state.
Write in Hillary
We don’t drink much these day but I do turn into this when I’m drunk. I remember back before we were married, my wife’s best friend used to call me “your communist boyfriend.”
Good thing we don’t drink a lot now, in the current political climate I’d probably jump on the Hamas love train and death to (various evil entities) slogans too hard and get “your terrorist supporting husband” instead.
The struggle is super relatable. I’ve taken to letting my lib friends share complaints with us then when voting comes up mentioning PSL and Green parties. They don’t live in a swing state but still are visibly shocked by the suggestion.
Yeah, I am the insufferable one like that! However, my lib friend is very well read on politics, they just have way more faith in the systems than I do. He also loves to take the “realist” stance as opposed to my idealistic one.
I am painted as unrealistic
This shit gets me. I get called “too idealistic” and my response is what does that even mean? I think it’s too idealistic for the few to benefit from the work of the many. Seems unsustainable which fits right in to the definitions of idealistic. I think it’s idealistic for the Dems to expect a vote when they can’t give even token concessions. “Unrealistic” get the fuck out of here 70 years ago we’d be blowing ourselves up in a world war for some crusty declining nobles (and soon we might be told to do it again!) now we watch complete strangers appear to entertain us for 30 seconds and evaporate forever on tiktok wtf do we know about realistic.
This hollow “community” of Democrats will happily cannibalize anyone without a second thought. The least I expect from my lib friends is to vote third party or shut up. Capitalism is a disease. Thanks for ranting so I could rant too
I think it’s idealistic for the Dems to expect a vote when they can’t give even token concessions.
DUDE! I run into a situation pretty often where I have to defend my criticisms of democrats against claims that my rhetoric is detrimental to progress. To which I have to tell them that its not my fucking responsibility to make politicians likable. I am not going to stop voicing my frustrations and concerns just because some uncommitted voter might hear me and agree… If Kamala wants more votes, that’s on her to prove the critics wrong, its not on me roll over and say nice things about her and the party. It is ridiculous for the Dems to expect a vote they don’t deserve just because they aren’t the orange guy.
Whenever any of them tell me to “grow up” I can’t help but think of the Dead Kennedys line: “I’d rather stay a child and keep my self-respect if being an adult means being like you.”
Seriously. Grow up and accept genocide and ecological collapse. Like a responsible adult. Sickening
Whenever some liberal glibly tells me “the world isn’t all sunshine and rainbows” I want to just scream IS-OUGHT at them until they shatter like glass.
70 years ago we’d be blowing ourselves up in a world war for some crusty declining nobles (and soon we might be told to do it again!)
hate to break it to you but 70 years ago was 1954.
Too idealistic means that your ideology (in this case socialism or communism) isn’t a realistic set of goals that the USA can feasibly pursue in the next administration without a major upheaval and many MANY deaths. If you don’t have a violent revolution planned to completely transform America into your image of the perfect country, you’re going to have to work within the framework of the system to change it incrementally.
Death to burgerland will come from the outside. Hypersonic missiles
“I accept genocide, climate apocalypse and mass death became I am a sensible grown up. Sitting on my ass doing jack shit and calling it incremental change is going great. Why no, I haven’t felt the noose slowly tightening around my own neck yet, that only happens to other people”
Hate to break it to you but there are already Many many deaths. Caused by the current administration even! Yet we must pragmatically and realistically accept them because of reasons.
I understand we’re not going to get communism anytime soon, but using those labels “unrealistic” or “idealistic” are worse than thought terminating. In reality it’s far more unrealistic to think we can keep doing what we’re doing. It’s idealistic to think the status quo of destroying the planet and exploitation can go indefinitely. As always it’s
If they were to say there’s way too many mini Hitler’s in Ford f5000s driving around to do a communism than YEA maybe we can share some thoughts.
Yes, there are a lot of 3rd party candidates you could vote for, you could also put real pressure on the political candidates that are asking for your vote, you can do plenty of things within the framework of the system and exercise your political voice. Voting for
with no qualifiers isn’t going to get you what you want sweetie. 
I just want no genocide
a lot of people want to believe someone is coming to save them.
100%
It takes a special kind of cynicism (which i have attained) to understand that most people gives a shit about each other, especially the people with any sort of power.
For me it’s the whole “the left is continuing to grow”
Liberals have been shifting to the right for years. The democratic president is endorsed by dick fucking cheyney, is running on more cruelty on the border, and has completely given up even discussing universal Healthcare, and has completely dropped the ball on abortion.
The liberals are objectively getting worse which is to be expected when their main strategy is justnconceding to republicans on everything.
And it doesn’t even bother liberals, they’ll tell you with a straight face that bidens the most pro environemnt pro union president in history you can tell them “were drilling more oil than anyone ever anywhere and every time there’s a strike you liberals keep saying it’s a Russian hoax to hurt democrats”
And they just roll their eyes and fucking act like they’re so morally superior your real world examples don’t count.
And they just roll their eyes and fucking act like they’re so morally superior your real world examples don’t count.
UUUUUUUGH!
Yeah its the smugness that gets me the most. Especially my debate lord friends where I almost hear the deep inhale they take before spouting off about the systemic limits… Of systems they refuse to uproot out of fear of losing access to amazon prime.
Yea the root of the cause is liberals (seemingly intentionally) not actually understanding nefotiation despite the fact they regularly say compromise is their top priority.
You see it in the last strike where theybwere all saying the opening demands were completely unrealistic and then 48 hours later the union had reached a really beneficial deal.
Liberals think if you actually want to get $100 for something an opening bid of $200 is a moral failing.
Liberals negotiate themselves into a corner before their opponents even make an opening offer.
To continue the over simplified example of wanting $100 for something, a liberal woukd say “ideally I want $100 for this but I’m willing to go as low as $60”
Then republicans say “fuck you ill give you $10” and Liberals settle on $5 for the sake of compromise.
Liberals think if you actually want to get $100 for something an opening bid of $200 is a moral failing.
Exactly this.
We must demand true socialism from liberal politicians, so the compromise at least is somewhat acceptable on the short term. (Not that we can
out capitalism…)The minimum program is non-neoliberal economics and anti-imperialism. That’s the absolute minimum. IF they are not willing to make a compromise with the left why would I vote for them? Because the other guy is a right-winger? Therefore I should vote for a different right winger with different rhetoric, because allegedly they are less corrupt?
Same shit is happening in Europe with different team colors.
A liberal gay friend of ours literally said to us that he’d vote for [anti-gay far right party] if they had a chance to win against [corrupt anti gay right wing party who had been in power for a a while now], but now he thinks he will vote for [centre right party with dubious credentials], only to stop the BIG BAD WOLF, even though he’s a “leftist”. It makes no sense.
Social democracy, real social democracy is the compromise, and even that’s nowhere near enough in the age of climate cataclysm…
Liberals say I’m not pragmatic… but hey let’s say I have 4 core political principles: who’s the politician who shares at least 2 with me? Who? Why would I vote for 0 matches? Is this the glorious democracy you speak of? For fucks sake, liberals are exhausting… in many ways more exhausting than right wingers.
It is exhausting. Especially like you say compared to right wingers.
Chuds are aware of the fact and will admit that a lot of their beliefs are just the opposite of whatever you think and they have those beliefs to piss you off.
Liberals have the exact same belief but also claim theirs is the rational and moral belief and actually you’re the one being divisive because you don’t agree with them the most progressive policy is to shoot all immigrants (and a few of these annoying lefties) into the ocean out of a cannon. Because they’re pragmatic and compassionate intellectuals.
Like my knee jerk reaction is to sit that person down and explain to them they aren’t a leftist they just want to absolve themselves morally. They are voting for right wing parties, that is mutually exclusive to being a leftist. They aren’t progressive they’re slightly right of center, just like most people, but they recognize that’s a moral failing so they lie to themselves and say they’re a leftist even though they’re thinking acting and voting light a lib.
It’s like all the American libs arguing the democrats are better than republicans on isreal. It doesn’t matter how they word it “the party currently doing a genocide is less likely to do a genocide than the party not currently doing a genocide” is never gonna convince anybody who’s actually operating in reality. But they can’t say “we’ve decided continuing to do a genocide is more important than getting your vote but also if you don’t vote for us we’ll consider that a moral failing on your part which makes us superior.”
But of course then your being divisive and doing purity tests so the only rational response from your friend is to go full blown right wing because you were mean to them, even thoughthat change wouldn’t involve thinking acting or voting any differently.
Truly, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.
Liberals have the exact same belief but also claim theirs is the rational and moral belief
Chuds do this too tbh, even more so because they’re claiming they’re fighting “evil”
Chuds deep down know they’re full of shit and will admit itnsonet8mes. It’s the wh9le sartre “never believe the anti semits is unaware of the absurdity of their arguments”
They relish the fact that they just said a bunchnof bullshi6 but they can just go “nuh uh” to any counter argument and watch the lib get mad.
Libs literally believe they’re doing the right thing while advocating for the same atrocities and literally look down on you for suggesting the fact they have the same goals and proposals as chids means they’re the same.
For me it’s the whole “the left is continuing to grow”
I think they mean PSL and DSA and such, these people are (usually…) at least not delusional to think the Democrats can be “pushed left” anymore
That’s absolutely the line constantly trrotted out by liberals and op said that was their friends justification for voting for kamala.
Blue Maga is very real, millions of people not only think the dems can be pushed left, millions more believe they already are left.
sad
Yeah I was about to make a similar post - just had a big debate with some older family friends at a party my parents had that are die-hard dems (which was nice, as they’re way further left then most other people there).
They were aghast when I said I wasn’t voting blue, and had no idea who Claudia or the PSL are, of course.
Got a lot of “this is the most important election ever” and “if he wins democracy is over” of course. But the one that really chapped my biscuits was saying that if he wins, then [my family member] will lose access to reproductive health care and IVF in particular.
So I said yeah right, neither side is going to change a damn thing about that, because they both see it as way too valuable of a carrot/stick to give up campaigning and fundraising on it. If the dems care so much about it, why haven’t they actually done anything about it?
“Well Biden’s wanted to, but he’s been hamstrung by the extremist right!”
So what about those years when he had full congressional majority?
“Oh well yeah, I mean I guess he could have done more there…”
And then we got called away to the rest of the party and never got to continue.
Bonus points for my insistence that both parties intend on continuing the genocide - but ofc he is going to do it worse somehow. When I said I’m not going to vote for Genocide Light™️, they said, “Hell yeah I am! It’s better than the other option!”, and I sadly beat a dead horse a little more about there actually being more options available and maybe you actually don’t have to put your stamp of approval on genocide-with-rainbow-flag-characteristics.
Also bonus-bonus points for one of the two (very sweet, kickass person generally) asking “So what does genocide mean again?” in a completely honest, non-hostile way, indicating that they simply had not engaged with even the thought of such a thing happening before this conversation.
And these are the two that always get in trouble for being too vocal about their left-ish political opinions at these functions.
But the one that really chapped my biscuits was saying that if he wins, then [my family member] will lose access to reproductive health care and IVF in particular.
It’s always something like this that they only just realized could tangentially affect them or someone they know. Meanwhile my position is with regards to the overall systemic shortcomings that I feel are just as important even if they don’t apply to me. Obviously I care about reproductive rights even tho my partner and I are both sterile (by choice), but I want those rights for everyone else even after I leveraged them for myself!
So what about those years when he had full congressional majority?
They are never ready to answer that, or they just punt the issue to the next scapegoat.
Bonus points for my insistence that both parties intend on continuing the genocide…
Yeah, this was a point I tried to make one time and instead of the “other guy is worse” I got the “Kamala isn’t Joe” line. Which made my brain reboot and I don’t remember after that, lol.
I got the “Kamala isn’t Joe” line.
Right, she’s moderately worse: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/08/harris-biden-the-view-00182883
ofc he is going to do it worse somehow
Push libs on this and they no response: just how, exactly, will he be worse? What specific actions would he do? Because right now we’re pretty much at the limit of what any administration can reasonably do.
I’ve asked many libs this and all they return with is quotes of trump saying he’ll do worse. But not how. Trump lies all the time and yet they believe him that he’ll somehow do worse this once.
Yeah it was pretty much this.
“He said he’ll flatten it!”
What, like as opposed to the dems, who will write a very strongly worded letter after the bombs they send over are used to flatten the place?
"Well yeah at least they’re writing that letter! Better than no letter! "
Change never arrives because the people who own the rest of us suddenly feel charitable.
Fascism has never willingly or peacfuly conceded.
Not everyone around me in the northeast is friendly, let alone a comrade, but I’m very glad to be far away from Silicon Valley liberals at long last.
I was very nearly approaching explosive-shouting-replies to the smug, arrogant, and even occult shit they’d keep saying to me, unprompted and unsolicited, especially after dae le epic “AI” hype waves took off.
That article is from last year and since then NVDIA is now “worth” 11% of the US GDP as a consequence, so I can kind of understand how you can see this as some sort of “miracle”.
What is the opposite of capitalism realism? Capitalist absurdism? We are increasingly seeing events and trends that defy even previous well established mainstream rethoric.
Surely they’re already believing or soon will turn into the old too big to fail rethoric, everyone prepares for the crash that never comes. When it does come its not a crash at all but a “pullback” only. The line only goes up, you may lose all your money but as long as Blackrock servers keep running the HFT algos Wall Street will be open every weekday at 9am.
At some point yeah, its like believing no matter what happens the church will always be there etc. There is some argument the closer we are to climate collapse the more we will regress towards fantasy escapist beliefs. The world is shit but AI will save us is just what a 14th century peasant would be saying about the church and god during the Bubonic plague. We haven’t changed.
I have never lived anywhere else besides the east coast, but I run into enough Silicon Valley types due to my jobs, they are on another level.
I have never lived anywhere else besides the east coast, but I run into enough Silicon Valley types due to my jobs, they are on another level.
I was just a teacher, but even then I had to hear “get in on the ground floor” pitches for numerous startups and grifts from both faculty and sometimes just strangers, and the worst of them would just announce bazinga shit like “do you know that humans are obsolete? Fortunately, I’m planning on upgrading with Neuralink.”
“get in on the ground floor”
I winced at this…
“get in on the ground floor”
I winced at this…
Me too, every time.
Honest question: How do people reconcile their approaches to these situations with what Combat Liberalism instructs? Because Mao says fuck your discomfort and yell at people.
Mao does not actually say yell at people and burning all available bridges in self-righteous fits of anger instead of searching for ways to interact constructively with people is closer to being what he regarded as liberalism, being that it can be described as “venting personal spite”. That segment, like most of them, only applies to intraparty affairs, but that’s why I said “closer to”. All he says about extraparty interaction is that you should continuously agitate and propagandize.
It’s been awhile since I’ve read Combat Liberalism, but I thought the context of that was for disputes between people in the same party or organization. If it’s someone who’s a friend but otherwise isn’t struggling alongside you to build communism, I’m not sure what the point of being super insistent on ideological correctness would be.
We live in different times than Mao. I don’t have an answer but it is that which should inform your praxis, not book worship, as it were.
Different times, a different part of the world, and radically different material conditions at that
Related - how can we possibly be less “moralistic” when it’s a moral question of such magnitude as “should people support genocide”?
Combat liberalism is more of a list of Mao’s personal grievances in the human condition/behaviour under the label of liberalism than anything else. It’s a short text written in the context of instilling party discipline then anything else.
There’s a uniting theme in all of the behaviors he highlights of a sort of moral flippancy, of regarding a decision as basically indifferent and then just picking the option you want instead of picking what is best. It makes sense to call this self-entitled version of freedom, where you are not obliged to act rightly but merely fulfill some set of requirements and then have free reign in the rest of it, “liberalism,” because that is exactly what many liberal moral frameworks look like, especially the more politically-involved ones (like social contract theory).
Yes, there is a theme that is about subordinating personal advancement (a more liberal tendency) to development of the cadre / party (a more revolutionary tendency). But it is still very focused on that attempt to assert discipline over the cadres/party. Some of the advice is actually toxic to follow in other contexts. For example, I know many proto-MLMs that really take the “you better tell everyone when they are wrong instead of talking about it secretly, that is liberal and advancing yourself” thing to heart and they criticize the crap out of each other to allegedly create “unity” but it actually makes people hate each other. They completely miss how to develop constructive political education in the party because they are interpreting Combat Liberalism as Mao’s Guide to Party Behavior, but it isn’t even that. The meaning of that line is really more like, “hey you behind-my-back shittalkers tell it to our faces so we can hash it out and minimize factions” and not “you should focus on criticizing in full membership meetings and never air a criticism privately or sit in it for a while”.
I will admit that the sparseness of the text combined with the distance in time and space means it’s not the sort of thing you can just throw on someone’s lap like Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, but I think we ultimately agree.
Probably! I think it is fun to read and entertaining to quote but I think the main issues in Western left organizing are substantially different. I definitely keep “no investigation, no right to speak” in my back pocket though, which is from a somewhat similar but more widely applicable work. I swear to God 90% of Western leftists need to internalize that and shut the fuck up (not speaking about you or anyone on Hexbear lol). So many problems in left orgs could be solved if the people who have spent less than 10 minutes thinking about a topic just didn’t jump into conversations to share opinions and then die on a hill.
Personally I think the takeaway from that text in the imperial core context is probably that of class and party collaboration. Your personal relationships with libs are yours to sort out but under no circumstances work to further their bourgeoisie party project.
I haven’t read Combat Liberalism (and should), but FWIW I think I’d say Mao’s circumstances naturally were also very different in context- it’s one thing to say it in the global south, in genuinely brutalized and colonized countries where the masses can be receptive on some level, and another to say it in the heart of empire, surrounded by all those who have benefited from or see their lot as tied with that of the empire (also with a lot of colonized peoples- but even then with varying degrees of similar issues).
I’d say Mao was right, anyways. Fuck the discomfort… but then also we are all only human. We can yell all we want, I’ve stuck my neck out and gotten into arguments myself, but end of the day we know we’re swimming upstream, perhaps even trying to swim up a waterfall- not to say it can’t be done, nor to support defeatism, but our energy is finite, self-preservation on some level is valid (supporting the genocide however is wholly invalid and those who do will deserve what they get), and picking and choosing our fights is not only valid, but can be the better strategy (finding receptive audiences, using our energy elsewhere or going where we can actually contribute) than butting our heads up against a wall. If seeing industrial genocide cannot successfully appeal to someone’s humanity, nothing will- perhaps the material conditions in the future will be such that they will come to us all the same, or perhaps they will be worn down further still, but what can be said to those supporting, even if due to “lesser evil” bullshit, such atrocities?
It’ll only take a few minutes (for real, it’s less than 1000 words)! Link
Thanks! Having read it now it is- interesting. Good and unquestionably principles everyone should seek to follow, yet also of course a call to constant self-crit and what I’d call irreligious, tangible, revolutionary virtue.
I’d never really considered such behaviors liberalism, but it’s food for thought (and I don’t disagree with it). Of course, considering all that is listed, there is no one who doesn’t err or who will not err in due time, but it’s a means of bettering yourself, society, and protecting the integrity of the revolution or of any org, I suppose. It’s definitely something that will be sticking with me.
All of american society is set up to sitfle your voice. You can be uncomfortable and yell at them but every other person they know, all of the media they consume, and every interaction they have throughout the day is set up to reinforce you’re just a crazy hippy or something and the correct answer is to consume and subjugate.
That’s not to say you shouldn’t do it but the best that you can hope for is they brush you off and then encounter some especially stark contradictions in the next few hours that makes them consider what you said might have a point.
But then the 6 o clock local news, 2 hours of pr8metime TV and then every late night show is gonna try to convince them that’s just some weird coincidence.
But that brief moment where they thought “huh this sure seems exactly like what that looney lefty of a friend of mine described earlier” is about our only on ramp and it’s important that idea is planted before they encounter a contradictions and some chud tells them its because of immigrants.
IMO it is not a useful text. It was a discipline document for militarized cadres that strained itself a bit to claim that things that undermined Mao’s preferred direction were liberalism. It is also primarily about intraparty discipline.
