I’m honestly a little bit hesitant to ask this because don’t wanna seem like I’m stepping on toes.
So I’ve been doing some thinking stuff over the last few weeks/months and am starting to question shit.
I’ve always been cis male presenting and for the most part it’s all I’ve really known, but I’m not in the least bit masculine. Back in the early 00s, the term metro-sexual was a thing and I sort of identified with that but like, meh? Idk. Now that just feels chauvinistic for some reason.
Recently I’ve been thinking about my own gender identity and although I present as a male, I honestly don’t really care. I also have that autism(or is it just ND?) thing where I feel like a being or entity in a human suit basically. Like my inner self is controlling the body that people see me as, which is, of course male presenting.
I’ve been looking a bit into agender and demigender and hit some of the checkboxes but not really all, but I also don’t really know another term for essentially “male body but don’t care”. A reddit search brought up “gender apathy” and that’s a kind of maybe I guess.
The only other conclusion is that I am just cis, but fully aware of it maybe? Like I have a way wider understanding of gender and even sexuality than I did a decade ago so maybe I’m just cis and just not toxic about it? I’m just “woke” maybe?
I guess call this a journal-post but def open for discussion. I’m just going through some heavy mental exploration. I’m not sure if there is even a question here. Just me being confused.
I guess a question could be: how do you know? How do you know where you land on the gender spectrum? Or am I just making a mountain out of a molehill?
My bf has a cool take on his relationship with gender and a lot of things you and another commenter said, my bf has also said.
I mean i don’t think his experience answers your questions sorry but it had me thinking when he first mentioned it so maybe it’s food for thought?
He’s always felt cis and knows he’s a man. But gender to him has always since he was very young being a social construct. (Ooo sorry we aren’t all so based as him lmao) But because he has always had that perspective on it, he describes a lot of similar things to yourself but for him he feels fine and comfortable as himself a cis bisexual dude.
Like masculinity and being a man and gender to him are silly social rules, he knows he’s a man and his identity is based exclusively on knowing who he is. Confidence in himself first and his relationship to gender comes second? It’s hard to explain, like he won’t wear my rabbit back pack the coward because he thinks it’s cringe. Not because men can’t do it. Maybe not the best example. So his entire identity as a cis man is as he would describe it “a guy who doesn’t engage in gender in how it relates to me” because he is done with it.
I asked about like non-binary since a few of our friends are or if he’d looked into that and he was like yeah but I’m not and i dont let a social construct define me hence I’m fine with being a cis guy and it was like wow you really just don’t fucking care or engage with it because you see it as stupid restrictive rules and that’s weirdly frank but hella based. At least to me.
Just a cis person who isn’t toxic about it is a good way of describing my bf and probably how he’d put it.
So yeah I dunno, I’d say definitely explore because everyone is different and every journey is personal and like two things can be totally similar but not the same so my bfs lens isn’t like the answer or anything.
Edit: from my bf’s mouth cos I checked with him 💪 “it’s not an important facet of me engaging with people. For people who dont engage with gender as a social construct being labelled as anything means engaging with a social construct I don’t subscribe to but if people need to label me then yes I’m a cis man if that makes them happy.”
Like it’s so unimportant to him it makes me swooooon 😍
but maybe that’s cos I’m clearly a bad slave to gender still lmao.I mean i don’t think his experience answers your questions sorry but it had me thinking when he first mentioned it so maybe it’s food for thought?
I weirdly have a curiosity about people in general and how they became who they are. Like I don’t like the idea of humans in general(maybe more of a philosophical talk for another day lol) but the individual human journey fascinates me. I want to know people’s stories but I always feel like it’s rude to ask.
I feel a lot like your bf, but like my awakening was only in the past decade or so when I started to question, or even realize I don’t care. Like, for as long as I can remember I never really got why people got up in arms over gayness or transgenderism, I just understood that people thought it was bad enough to make it political. But my personal understanding of like masculinity only developed in the last 10 years or so. I knew for a long time that I don’t like doing most “guy stuff” but didn’t really get it I guess. I only recently started dressing less “manly” I suppose but my outfits of choice now are joggers and tagless t-shirts which could probably be considered androgynous or gender neutral? But I do it out of comfort and lack of caring so not sure.
Your whole comment hits on the last part of my title: Maybe I’m just cis male but don’t care about any of it regarding my own personal identity.
I asked about like non-binary since a few of our friends are or if he’d looked into that and he was like i dont let a social construct define me and it was like wow you really just don’t fucking care or engage with it because you see it as stupid restrictive rules and that’s weirdly frank but hella based. At least to me.
No that’s hella based lol.
I think I do care about others’ gender identities more than my own for sure though.
Could be? It’s wild how much our own individual experiences define it too.
I mean I have asked my bf if him being white and cis and male maybe lends him proviledge to have the mental space to not care and be able to comfortably disengage. He does agree, i think it’s an interesting conversation. But that’s obviously just his specific circumstances, and its nuanced as he is bi so that is another lens and potential defining experience.
For example his just looks like a white dude. Regardless of his identity his privilege as a white cis dude let’s him do what he likes for the most part. So therefore he doesn’t have to engage with gender because his cis white maleness and presentation shields him from any discrimination, oppression or bigotry that others face.
Conversely for me I’ve faced the worst stuff by virtue of being/presenting as a woman. So for me the systemic oppression and sisterhood I’ve found within my gender identity (like I can be at it with another girl but if a dude says something sexist immediately there’s a team effort) become defining characteristics of my identity even though those silly things are a social construct in themselves. Like trauma can define others and my gender defines me by virtue of how I’ve suffered because of it. Currently. Gettjming better. That’s not based, that’s what I need to learn to understand and overcome. To disengage from gender and to do that I objectively have more baggage to overcome than my cis white male bf.
It’s why terfs are so fucking stupid to me, like they should know what oppression under gender feels like, they should know how it can rot and ruin people and they pretend to talk a big game about feminism and then exclude other women and femmes when we all need to support each other. Scum.
And like there’s also cis guys who get oppressed by gender too, aaaaaa genders a fuck. Like my bf is bi so he does suffer oppression still. Its all very complicated but I guess the point is it shouldn’t be?
One day I shall like to be rid of it. Like gender it empowers me but shackles me too.
You’ll figure it out, and whatever that is I’m sure it will be based but not as based as me muhahahahaha
You’ll figure it out, and whatever that is I’m sure it will be based but not as based as me muhahahahaha
Rofl, I never claimed to be based in the least.
Naaaah you are based
That legit made me smile.
I guess a question could be: how do you know?
In my experience as a person with AuDHD, this is a very unproductive question. The questions that have helped me are:
- Does anything make you feel masculine?
- Does anything make you feel feminine?
- Does anything make you feel gendery in a non-specific way?
- Do you feel enjoyment or discomfort with the answers to any of the previous questions?
Also in my experience, you’ll learn more about the answers to these questions from experimenting once or twice than you will from journaling or contemplating for months. It’s kind of the theory-and-praxis relationship where the thought and the action are in a dialectic with each other. If you can’t be bothered to experiment, maybe there’s your answer. None of the answers will be definitive on their own, but they will give you more information to make a decision. Because that’s kind of what it is at the end of the day. Gender isn’t a choice per say, but when you’re doubting your gender, landing on a gender, even temporarily, is an assertion at the end of the day as much as it is a discovery.
I don’t think you are actually wanting me to answer the questions but I almost never feel masculine, but sometimes feel feminine. And outside of facial hair and being born with a penis, I don’t really feel gendered aside from societal norms. And for the fourth one, I think I’m mostly indifferent to the questions.
If you can’t be bothered to experiment, maybe there’s your answer.
So, I guess maybe my gender really just doesn’t matter in the end? Good comment btw.
Thank you! And answering explicitly is fine even if that wasn’t my intent. Personally, I really enjoyed experimenting and trying on my first skirt and makeup, even if I don’t wear that stuff day to day now. It was simultaneously really easy and really hard. But I understand it’s not for everybody.
Answering legit helped me lol. I think I’m leaning towards demi with a bit of agender fluidity if that makes sense.
I haven’t even really considered clothing but like I said elsewhere my current day to day dress is very androgynous as it is. Like nothing I wear really scream masculinity, I think.
i was in a similar spot lil over a year ago and posted here about it actually, asking folks where the line was between agender and “cis but really indifferent to gender,” and some comrades helpfully suggested that when you’re in this kind of murky ambiguous zone the line is basically wherever you feel like it. there’s a degree of arbitrariness to it (not in a dismissive way, but in a freeing way). there are amab masc people who are way more outwardly gender nonconforming than i am who might be totally comfortable saying “yeah i’m a man, men can be like this, the concept of ‘man’ doesn’t have to conform to your conventional sensibilities
” and that’s what’s truest and most freeing for them and that is totally fucking cool as well.that said i settled on “agender spectrum” and it feels right, though in casual conversation i might just say masc-presenting-enby or simply nonbinary and drill deeper if the convo goes there. if you wanna get really really micro label about it, i’m probably what you’d call “demi agender and demi man” but i personally don’t like getting that granular, so agender spectrum is a good shorthand. i’ve always been indifferent toward/wary of Masculinity As Such and presented kinda androgynous and boyish. i also feel like my striving to be a more openly emotional and loving person has been freed a bit by ditching the Man label. i’m a big softie and i’ve been embracing that side of myself more, and i like getting fruity and affectionate and expressive with my close friends in a way that rejects my maleness. and a lot of days, i don’t really “feel gender” and just feel like Me, or feel like A Being.
on the other hand, there are still niche conceptions of masculinity that resonate with me and aspects of my natural personality that are more Male Coded that i like. i have a fairly deep voice that i find pleasant and which can sound kinda commanding/authoritative in certain contexts, i can be kind of loud and outspoken/socially confident in a way that i like, and i’m a bit puckish/playful/rascally in a lot of respects (which is more associated with a sort of boyishness and leans toward a certain flavor of masculinity). and on a physical level, i prefer my face with some five o’clock shadow/scruff vs clean shaven.
so yeah idk just wanted to share my own journey to see if any of it resonates. my loose advice would be to not worry about it too much and just kinda vibe it out. good on you wherever you land though, examining gender intentionally is Extremely Based and should be more encouraged as the norm, even if someone ultimately decides cis is what works for them.
Honestly, “masc-presenting agender/enby” feels kind of right. You ever go swimming underwater and resurface and feel that like “lungs full of fresh air and things coming into clarity” sensation? And when I posted this I was even wondering if demigender with a bit of agender makes sense. Like I’m demi-male but 25% agender that covers that sort of “other” genderness?
Thanks for sharing. A lot resonated with my own experiences. Regarding male coded stuff, I know I do outward present. I have a full beard but even though, I still do feel less masculine and more feminine I think. Basically my “masculinity” is only probably just because of what society has associated with it. When I was clean shaven, I’ve been mistaken for a girl a few times.
I also have that autism(or is it just ND?) thing where I feel like a being or entity in a human suit basically. Like my inner self is controlling the body that people see me as, which is, of course male presenting.
I feel like your entire post. for what it’s worth, i’ve decided to just roughly consider myself agender in response to feeling like my maleness is something thrust upon me and that gender is a fuck that i’d prefer to not apply to myself. i don’t feel like i’m in any sense “in-between” what might be considered the general poles of either gender. instead, i just want to opt out of worrying about that for myself, or other people for that matter, beyond wanting people to be able to express their gender as they feel comfortable.
This resonated a lot to me. Thanks for sharing! I don’t think I feel like an “in-between” which is what lead me to either agender or demi. There might be a tinge of genderfluid but I haven’t really explored that.
Mooooood. I’m just kinda stuck at gender is a fuck and I don’t get it, maybe I should crack open a book one of these days instead of just spinning my wheels about it.
Agender? Nb? Cisn’t? Fuck if I know I’m just doing me, just a little guy (person, whatever) getting through the day why’s my brain got all these questions?
Interesting enough part of what got me here was Trans Liberation by Leslie Feinberg and the Gender Accelerationist Manifesto lol.
Nooo don’t validate my laziness (joking)
Do you think either would be helpful for someone stuck on what even is gender or feeling masc/femme or nah?
Trans Liberation gave me a a greater understanding of what other genderness exists. I came from a knowledge of basically cis male, cis female, trans MtF, trans FtM, and cultural third genders but it did a good job of explaining things more thoroughly. Leslie covers had she is trans-masc afab but also how her genderness sort of transcends(sorry for the pun) even that. It does open up with her getting denied help in an hospital due to her being trans so eye opener out the gate. I have a gay friend that has mentioned that a doctor wrote down her bisexuality/lesbianism as mental illness and was kind of aware that it’s pervasive in the medical world but didn’t know medical personel are willing to flatout ignore the Hippocratic oath due to their bigotry.
The Manifesto does a great job of explaining what gender is or can be from a communistic perspective. It’s a really easy read and free to download via the Anarchist Library. It helped fill some holes I had about the wider queer world.
I do recommend both but if you only have energy for one, the Gender Accelerationist Manifisto is probably what I would recommend. Fienberg’s speeches in her book are really moving though. I can appreciate good public speaking skills.
I went from cis by default to cis because I actually feel male on the inside. Some combination of getting older and getting more exercise flipped the switch. I’m not going to claim that’s universal in any way; I’m just confirming that gender feelings can change over time. Maybe in a few years you’ll do the same thing as me, or figure out you’re trans, or double down on agender, or still be where you’re at. All of those are fine as long as you’re happy with being there.
(I would recommend exercise for “being in a human suit” feelings though, I think getting in touch with your body as the part of you that translates your intents into actions is probably good for most people.)
I will say, when I was working out more, I wasn’t really questioning things as much and my depression was even somewhat under control(there really is some actual truth in that) but I can’t afford a gym membership. I currently have a very physical job so hoping that can count as exercise lol.
And yeah, I probably will dwell on this for a bit longer and figure out, if anything, a temporary answer, then come back to it. Part of my ASD is that I can tend to ruminate on idea and memories on and off for years(well my whole life really). I think it’s ok to come back and question it again since it’s really just a social construct. Maybe my agender lean/not caring is just an outward reflection of my pessimism and depression.
I currently have a very physical job so hoping that can count as exercise lol.
that may count as exercise medically/physically but emotionally/ psychologically I feel like a workout becomes more than that as a time and space to be in a different mode, whatever that means for you. It could be worth trying a basic at home exercise routine of simple things like squats (everyone should do squats squats are good) or even just stretches/ yoga if you’re into that.
Just a thought I had after reading this thread, I wish you luck comrade! ~
Appreciate it and thanks! Honestly I do probably need to actually do exercises. Maybe I’ll start walking in the morning instead of doomscrolling on my days off.
Ehh i call this agender. The 🤷🤷 of gender
Honestly that was what my partner said it sounded like to her when we talked about it.
I also have that autism(or is it just ND?) thing where I feel like a being or entity in a human suit basically. Like my inner self is controlling the body that people see me as, which is, of course [mail] presenting.
There’s also an ND thing called vaguegender, to express the feeling of neurodivergence making determining your own gender harder.
I’d second the recommendation of results first, labels second. Whether you’re genderfluid, nonbinary, agender, demi-boy, or all of the above can come later.
There is a subreddit called something like
/r/voidgender/r/voidpunk or something that is for people who generally feel like they don’t really belong to any gender which is where my mind was going with that. Vaguegender definitely sounds like a fit too.As for results, I think I just mostly want to finally accept who/what I am. I know my friends will accept too.(idk if that is what results means here tbh but I’m still figuring is all out lol) My family can fuck off. As far as I care, I’m just he/him to them and don’t really care since they don’t really love me. We also keep my wife’s bisexuality on the downlow for similar reasons so it won’t be anything new.
___Got it, yeah, that (and /r/voidpunk) are options too.
idk if that is what results means here tbh but I’m still figuring is all out lo
Results as in the way your gender would actually manifest. You might want to do some gender experimentation, even if it means stepping outside your comfort zone.
You said you sometimes feel feminine. When you’re feeling that way, do something that lets you embrace it and see how you feel about that.
Yep, I was thinking /r/voidpunk actually.
You said you sometimes feel feminine. When you’re feeling that way, do something that lets you embrace it and see how you feel about that.
Appreciate clearing it up for me. I had a ASD brainfart trying to parse it lol.
i think you’re running into the duality of how we’re legitimizing non-hegemonic identities but also making the hegemonic identities less rigid.
resolving the ambiguity between two adjacent labels might come down to what order you read about them. or there’s nothing to resolve, because fluid.
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You don’t have a big “manly” beard and paint your nails too do you?
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I float between blue, purple, pink, and classic black. But I used to only do silver.
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I’m a big fan of bright or pastel lol. I did silver because while others were going through a goth phase, I was going through a candy kid phase rofl. It felt more fitting t obe shiny and glittery.
I’ve always rankled at gender-as-a-box. Which, of course, is not what gender is in its totality, but it feels, in a lot of ways, like one of the earliest interactions a lot of people have with gender as a child.
Boys don’t do x, girls shouldn’t play with y. Wider culture has moved away from 'don’t’s and 'shouldn’t’s (though, many families still do), but even without hard barriers, ‘culture’ clearly still pushes boys and girls into certain boxes.
I’m uncertain if I’m trans or cis or agender or w/e label, much like you. I’m not deeply uncomfortable with my body (though, I don’t especially like it either), and while I support transhumanism stuff, I’m personally loathe to change my body (which, is largely tied to my mental illness tbh).
But, presontationally, I default to what could be described as either ‘metrosexual’ or outright ‘visibly queer’, just because I have a taste for the clothes I like the styles and colors and accessories, and gender norms be damned. But also also, it feels shitty to take gender-nonconforming-fashion directly into ‘trans’, it feels like I’d be appropriating a label. And, at work, I’m ‘normal masc presenting’ simply because A) I work as a tradesman, so its practical, and B) I do want that $, and to not get shit at work, even if that feels cowardly and inauthentic.
Saying that I’m ‘cis-ish’ also sometimes gets me labelled as an egg online, which while disrespectful, idk, might be right?
I’ve actually been thinking a lot about the gender-as-a-box thing, and more so after becoming a parent. We are actually raising our kid in as gender-neutral of an environment as we can. They are both boys but our oldest has 2 baby dolls and our youngest wanted one too so I went out and got him one. They have legos, blocks and ribbon dancers things too though. Our oldest likes to have his nails painted and we’ve talked to him a few times about it and told him that most people look at it as a “girl thing” but we don’t and that if he’s uncomfortable with it at school or whatever it’s ok if he doesn’t want to do it(kids can be vicious). But I’m going trough the same shit internally with my new job. I’m a bearded 41 year old male presenting person and so fucking badly want to paint mine since it’s been a few months due to interviews and such but I am a bit afraid of judgement at work.
It’s kind of interesting how invasive the gender-as-a-box thing really is.
The only other conclusion is that I am just cis, but fully aware of it maybe? Like I have a way wider understanding of gender and even sexuality than I did a decade ago so maybe I’m just cis and just not toxic about it? I’m just “woke” maybe?
I’m in that boat. I’m comfortable in my cis-ness. There’s nothing wrong with it.
For sure.
Right now I’m not comfortable with whatever I am and that’s why I am questioning it but if I end up just plain ol cis, then that’s closure.
I’m a part of the “default” so I don’t have to consider it as much. I might be more towards the gender doesn’t matter end of the spectrum, but I can appreciate how that is similar to a white person telling you that they don’t see colour.
but I can appreciate how that is similar to a white person telling you that they don’t see colour.
I think that this is a misapprehension tbh, and I mean this in a kind way so it’s not intended to be a call out.
To say “I don’t see colour, I see people” to a POC is to say “I am separating a fundamental part of what makes you who you are and which has been your experience in society from before you were old eenough to understand what was going on around you” which is inherently dehumanising and it’s a denial and a whitewash of systems of racial oppression as well as your own position in those systems, whatever position that happens to be.
This applies similarly to saying that you don’t see gender, you just see people to someone (especially if they are trans) as it denies a fundamental part of who they are as people.
But to say “I don’t understand gender (on a personal level, for how I relate to and understand myself)” is not to attempt to erase others’ identities but it’s just an affirmation of how you yourself feel; if I said “I’m gay, I don’t feel attracted to the opposite gender and so I don’t understand what that’s like and what it means” isn’t an attack on heterosexuality or on aspects of sexualities that are attracted to the opposite gender (e.g. bi/pansexuality). It’s only when you start projecting that experience onto other people’s identities that it is a problem.
I’m still very much hashing things out with myself and I’ve spent a lot of time listening to trans experiences of gender and it doesn’t resonate with my own internal experience of gender so, on a fundamental level I don’t get it—and I don’t think I ever will—but that’s okay and I have a genuine respect for those experiences and I “understand” it, insofar as I “understand” something such as history; I understand it as an outsider who is learning about it via external, secondary means but it’s not the same thing as truly understanding what it’s like by living it. It’s gonna sound very selfish, and on one level it really is, but I’m super grateful for the self-advocacy of trans people because it’s really been the only thing that has helped me to understand my own experience of gender, or the lack thereof.
(All of this comes with a massive caveat - I’m not cis and I’ve never felt cis as far as I can recall. By definition that makes me trans and I’m cool with that fact however I understand that my experience of gender is not representative of a large proportion of the trans community’s experience and I feel like it would be really harmful and reckless of me to openly identify to others that I am trans when I haven’t figured it all out internally with myself. And the most scary thing for me would be that openly identifying as trans to others, especially irl except when I’m around people who get it, might give the false impression that simply because I don’t give a damn about what pronouns you use for me or how you perceive my gender therefore it means that all trans people can be expected to feel this way. The prospect of my own experience of gender potentially being used as a rhetorical or ideological justification to harm other trans people or to be used to erase the validity of their gender[s] is what scares me. I don’t want to be the one that they point to in order to argue why misgendering trans people is fine, actually, because that would destroy me to know that my internal experience was misappropriated in service of harming others.
So to me it’s like - if I need to tell you I’m trans then you don’t get it, and that comes with inherent risks to other trans people which I feel is the most important thing to prioritise, as someone who experiences a lot of privilege by my own internal experience of being personally gender agnostic. And if I don’t need to tell you that I’m trans, that’s because you already get that I am and it doesn’t come with those same concerns.)
My best analogy for all of what I’m trying to get at here is that gender seems to be a lot like a shoe. Some people just have shoes that are comfy on them by default. Some people have been forced to wear shoes that are really uncomfortable for them, until they get a chance to slip into a pair that are much more comfy. And some people have always worn extremely uncomfortable shoes all their lives and they don’t even realise it because they never knew that shoes could be so comfortable or, perhaps, they were taught to believe that they were unworthy of wearing shoes that fit them.
Footwear seems really cool and all, aside from when people are being forced into shoes or being made to believe that they are somehow unworthy of comfy shoes, and I can appreciate the different shoes that people have on and how they choose to wear them but, for me, I feel like being barefoot is my normal; I can put on different shoes, and I have throughout my life, and some are more uncomfortable to wear than others but I’ve never put on a pair of shoes and been like “Oh wow, these fit perfectly! I feel so good in this pair of shoes that I never want to take them off ever again!”
The closer I am to barefoot, the less uncomfortable I am but it’s not even a positive sort of feeling to be barefoot for me; it doesn’t feel like barefoot is “home” or “me”, it just feels like no shoes are the least uncomfortable choice in footwear for me.
(I really need to make an alt account so I’m not figuring all this shit out for myself live on main lol)
Absolutely. That’s why I like to stress that gender doesn’t matter to me personally. I will always respect anyone else’s gender identity.
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