Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has said the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin – the Russian mercenary leader whose plane crashed weeks after he led a mutiny against Moscow’s military leadership – shows what happens when people make deals with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.
As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.
“When you want to have a compromise or a dialogue with somebody, you cannot do it with a liar,” Volodymyr Zelensky said.
Withdrawing troops, returning stolen land, children, prisoners and paying for damages… thats all i would accept. Nothing less.
A ‘Treaty of Versailles’ type solution is not a good idea for durable peace though, harsh reparations, despite any sense they might be ‘fair’, seldom lead to both countries returning to be prosperous democratic countries (and to be clear, neither is a capitulation by Ukraine - that would be seen by Putin as locking in its current gains, with no real incentive not to try again for more despite what the treaty might say).
The best outcome for everyone is if Russia ends up being a genuinely pluralistic democracy (i.e. anyone in Russia can have political views, and the public selects its leadership in free and fair elections). Then Ukraine can normalise relations with Russia, and Russia stops being a threat to democratic institutions across the world as a whole.
I think the best way of thinking about it is not that Ukraine has a Russia problem, but rather that Ukraine and Russia have an oligarch problem (with Putin chief amongst them). Therefore, in a fair world, the oligarchs, and not the Russian people, would pay. It is true that Russians (and indeed some Ukrainians in occupied regions) have been radicalised by the oligarchs, so some kind of deradicalisation would be needed even if the oligarchs disappeared.
Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term. Shorter term solutions could include a negotiated end to hostilities coupled with agreements for Ukraine to join a defensive alliance that the oligarchs wouldn’t consider provoking - which could be followed up by a carrot approach to easing sanctions in exchange for progressive movements towards genuine Russian democracy. This might give oligarchs enough push to take off ramps to cash in what they have plundered already, and slowly be replaced by less corrupt alternatives going forward.
Recovery from oligarchy for Russia might also by costly for Russia though - essential assets plundered from the USSR are now in private hands through crony capitalism; the best solution would be for many of the major ones to go back to or be rebuilt under state ownership, under genuine democratic leadership. But that is likely easier said than done given the state of Russia.
Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term.
This may be true but the negotiations are with a dictator. It’s not like Putin is going to step down so that the problem is resolved peacefully.
Yep. The only way to make progress on that front is to serve Putin some polonium tea…
That won’t work, it’s not just Putin doing this alone you know. You’d need a powerful (the most powerful, actually) faction inside the Russian state apparatus that want to just give up, and there’s no real reason to think there is such a group. And no anti-war opposition has enough support to do a coup or win elections.
No defeatist is getting into power. It’s not going to happen unless Lenin rises from the dead.
I bet if they had a real option, they’d love to stop sending their kids to die.
Saying as much now gets you thrown in jail.
Socialism worked in Russia: it dragged hundreds of millions of people out of subsistence farming and turned the USSR into an economic powerhouse. Of course, the collapse of the USSR showed the failings of an aggressively socialist state, but the funny thing is that China already has the solution: a market-based economy with strong state control. Putin doesn’t dare piss off the oligarchs though, so we’re stuck with this crony bullshit.
| Socialism worked in Russia:
Bullshit. Prosperity advanced much more in the west than in the Soviet Union, or anywhere in the soviet bloc. Corruption was rampant. Lying was rampant. People were miserable. Cultural genocide was the name of the game. Subjugated people hated it, and have fared significantly better since getting out. The only people who seem to be nostalgic about the USSR is the Russians, because they lost the ability to benefit from the slave labor of conquered vassal states.
In what universe have corruption and lying not been rampant in “the west” over the last hundred years? Did you just pull this comment out of a book titled “Red Scare Propaganda?”
Lol. Nice whataboutism. The USSR literally collapsed due to corruption.
It shouldn’t be surprising that prosperity advanced much more in the already advanced and industrialised west than in a former semi-feudal peasant economy country. The point is that that former semi-feudal peasant economy rose rapidly to become at least a perceived competitor to the west, even with the most destructive war ever waged on a large part of its most fertile and productive land.
Also, corruption and lying? That isn’t specific to the USSR. People are and were miserable in the west too, cultural genocide was and is happening in the west too. Comparing like for like, socialism worked well for the USSR. It was able to heavily industrialise, house populations, create a space program and compete with the USA on the international stage.
| It shouldn’t be surprising that prosperity advanced much more in the already advanced and industrialised west than in a former semi-feudal peasant economy country.
If the Russians wanted to industrialize, then good for them. But they did it off the back of the slave labor of other countries obtained through violent conquest.
Many European countries were decimated in the aftermath of WWII, not just Russia. West Germany, case in point. The West Germans had it significantly better than the East Germans under socialism. France had it better than Poland under socialism. etc… Socialism made peoples lives miserable.
To whit: 85% of Poles think positively of the change to a multiparty system and market economy. 85% and 83% (respectively) of East Germans. 82% and 76% of Czechs. 70% and 69% of Lithuanians. 74% and 71% of Slovaks. The only people who see it as a negative are the Russians. Go figure.
| Also, corruption and lying? That isn’t specific to the USSR.
True, but I never claimed it was. It’s about degree. I’ve heard first hand stories from former soviet residents of how the only way to get a doctor to treat you with anything more than an asprin was to bribe them. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption. The idea that that sort of corruption existed in the west at the same time is laughable.
| People are and were miserable in the west too.
Claiming that there are some miserable people in the west misses the point. There are miserable people everywhere, but what % of the population are they?
Research (you know, data), shows that people in South Eastern Europe, Central Eastern Europe and the Baltic states are significantly happier than they were at the fall of the USSR. The only region where this is not true for all countries in the region is the former CIS, which surprise, surprise, includes Russia.
| cultural genocide was and is happening in the west too
Where? Show me a country in the west where your mother tongue is banned? Show me a country in the west where you can be sent to prison for practicing your cultural rituals (assuming you aren’t hurting others ofc)? Don’t compare the mixing of cultures due to increased levels of mobility and the internet to Russiafication, because that’s bullshit.
| socialism worked well for the USSR. It was able to heavily industrialize, house populations, create a space program and compete with the USA on the international stage.
Socialism worked well for a small number of people and only compared to the rest of the soviet bloc. Gorbechev ordered his motorcade to stop at some random small supermarket in the USA to see what it was really like and was initially convinced it was some elaborate CIA setup because he couldn’t believe that the average American had access to a wider range of high quality produce than the party elite in the USSR. American’s weren’t special in that regard. Everyone in the west had the same. Occupied countries would have been just fine with industrialization and housing their populations. All the USSR did from your list was create a space program which did almost nothing for the average person of the USSR, and it was so inept that Vladimir Komarov insisted on an open-casket funeral to force the point.
Ok, so the West Germans and France, who received economic aid from the US who wasn’t ravaged by war, fared better economically than those countries being supported by the Nazi devastated USSR.
I’ve heard first hand accounts from people from the west who talk about the only way to avoid disproportionate targeting by police and other state actors was to be not black or other minority. Not to mention the institutionalised corruption of over the top corporate lobbying. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption too.
Of course people are happier now than at the fall of the USSR. The collapse of a nation has a massive and in this case negative instant impact on people’s lives. The fact that things if gone up from there is not surprising.
Black people and Native Americans are still dealing with past and current displacement and discrimination, including a push to eliminate their culture and language. Canada is currently dealing with the results of their very recent genocidal attempts on their First Nations people.
That 'only a small number of people’s argument really doesn’t wash when you factor in the alternative that is capitalism. The very system that is increasing inequality faster and faster since the fall of its former main ideological enemy. It’s true that light industry in the Soviet Union was underdeveloped, people didn’t have as much choice in things like food products or consumer goods, but they were building from a completely different set of conditions. The ability of the west to produce so much that then gets wasted while still having starving, homeless, and undereducated people living in it is not a ringing endorsement of the system.
| Ok, so the West Germans and France, who received economic aid from the US who wasn’t ravaged by war, fared better economically than those countries being supported by the Nazi devastated USSR.
You seem to have forgotten that the point that I am disputing is that socialism worked in the USSR. The USSR was offered aid (the Marshall Plan) but refused it. That’s on socialism.
The simple truth is that the USSR failed its citizens. Non-russian slave nations would have been much better off being autonomous and free to pursue their own ideals and prosperity. Ethnic Russians…well who knows. It’s a messed up culture and that’s hard to break free from, but you could imagine a timeline where they dumped the idea that grinding others under your boot heel was the way to success.
| I’ve heard first hand accounts from people from the west who talk about the only way to avoid disproportionate targeting by police and other state actors was to be not black or other minority. Not to mention the institutionalised corruption of over the top corporate lobbying. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption too.
This is whataboutism and actually supports my point. Which was, again, was that socialism did not work in the USSR. If the west had all that ‘fucked up level of corruption too’, then it still out-performed socialism on pretty much all metrics. But regardless, selecting a disadvantaged minority in one country and then trying to create a false equivalence to the majority in the USSR is exactly that, a false equivalence.
| Of course people are happier now than at the fall of the USSR. The collapse of a nation has a massive and in this case negative instant impact on people’s lives. The fact that things if gone up from there is not surprising.
Oh, they were unhappy then! I have family who lived through it, and they HATED being part of the USSR. It was a miserable time of poverty, fear and suffering for them. The USSR was an authoritarian, totalitarian, one-party, state that had Orwellian propaganda, a cult of personality and in which the Russian ethic group had an overbearing sense of racial superiority. The state also carried out repression, torture and purges on scales that were genocidal. All of these traits are common with fascism, but the Russians claim to be anti-fascist. It’s odd.
Non-russians much prefer being free and out from the Russian fascist boot heel.
| Black people and Native Americans are still dealing with past and current displacement and discrimination, including a push to eliminate their culture and language. Canada is currently dealing with the results of their very recent genocidal attempts on their First Nations people.
I never claimed that other countries were perfect, I just did a comparison and found the USSR to be severely wanting in terms of whether it worked. I think it’s a good thing that First Nations people are finally getting their language, culture and rights recognised and respected. Maybe Russia could contemplate doing the same and leaving the Ukrainians alone; as opposed to, for example, the Russian man who recently THREW A 10 YEAR OLD UKRAINIAN CHILD OFF A BRIDGE for speaking Ukrainian in Germany.
| That 'only a small number of people’s argument really doesn’t wash when you factor in the alternative that is capitalism. The very system that is increasing inequality faster and faster since the fall of its former main ideological enemy. It’s true that light industry in the Soviet Union was underdeveloped, people didn’t have as much choice in things like food products or consumer goods, but they were building from a completely different set of conditions. The ability of the west to produce so much that then gets wasted while still having starving, homeless, and undereducated people living in it is not a ringing endorsement of the system.
I’m not claiming capitalism is perfect, far from it and I think the USA goes too way far the other way. But the point (again!) is that Socialism did not work in the USSR. People suffered, literally starved by the millions, and did not have autonomy, the freedom to speak either their language or their thoughts. People were abducted by the state never to be seen or heard of again, connections to community and land were broken, and countries other than russia were worse off than if they had been free to pursue their own path under a democratically elected government.
If you want to see a state where socialism has worked, look at Norway, not Russia.
China’s also showing the problem of that. The state control is too susceptible to corruption. That’s how they have a whole industry if fake construction, fake goods etc… And why they’re on the brink of a massive Construction bond related crash.
Yeah China had the answer. 🙄
Oppression of ethnic minorities, complete disregard for culture and individualism, zero tolerance for criticism and challenge, absolutely authority by a select few to do as they please.
Yeah that’s fucking tankie logic for you. Fuck off bootlicker. We don’t want authoritative commie dictatorships. If you want it, FUCKING MOVE THERE.
Is the “commie” in the room with you now? This is an unhinged level of angrv to get over a really quite tame comment.
This guy is commenting all over this thread with low key support of the CCP, USSR and the Putin thug regime.
So don’t tell me it is unhinged anger. This guy is a tankie shill and a dirtbag who supports genocidal maniacs.
Ukraine itself is not a “genuinely pluralistic democracy” despite appearances, it’s almost as corrupt and authoritarian as Russia.
It’s not the case where only Russia has to become more democratic cause democracies usually don’t fight each other.
But for Russia to stop being a threat it’s sufficient to just lose this war finally. It won’t recover its ability to attack anyone anytime soon, and when it will, the process of recovery itself is going to naturally ensure that it’s not interested in attacking Ukraine.
So yes, you are right about oligarchs and the general structure of the societies.
Essential assets you are talking about are what exactly? If you mean factories and plants, then actual equipment in most of them was obsolete even in 1991, and through the 90s and 00s has mostly been scrapped.
There are some remaining and even functioning, yes, but whether state ownership is going to prevent those from slowly crumbling due to growing obsolescence, irrelevance and lack of expertise, I’m not sure.
Basically industrial capacities are something to be created from scratch mostly.
But for Russia to stop being a threat it’s sufficient to just lose this war finally
What would be the definition of “losing” in this case? Countries tend use all the weapons at their disposal in order not to “lose”, in the case of Russia that would include its nuclear arsenal.
Sounds like a better outcome for everyone would be for Russia to get a civil war, and just “forget” about Ukraine.
All weapons which make sense for Russia’s leadership. Nukes are not that, they want to still rule over something when this ends.
Chemical weapons are possible, I think.
If we go far enough up the command chain, there are fallout shelters and
slavessubordinates to rule over.But you’re right, chemical and biological are likely lower on the “let’s fuck every treaty” scale.
I suspect they are getting second thoughts there about those fallout shelters and how different they are from wow hypersonic missiles and wow radioelectronic warfare and other kinds of wow they considered real.
And Russia Surrenders a 10km deep strip of its own land around Ukraine to act as a DMZ.
With what military do you plan on using to support this?
And a 3rd party enforced DMZ on the border.
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Eastern European countries love their “macho” leaders. Putin has been doing the whole shtick since forever and Zelensky started it too since 2022. Fucking hate this shit.
Lots of countries have this problem. Their people are looking for strong leaders, not smart leaders, and many interpret bullying as strength.
Well, it sometimes pays off. You can see how Pashinyan is regarded as opposed to Zelensky or literally anyone not as miserable. Looking weak is bad. Humans are still apes. And politicians in some sense are even more apes than the general population - they mostly participate in some free for all without any moral boundaries, which is an environment more macho-friendly than any other.
I mostly meant that people calling for Ukrainian offensive don’t quite feel that it’s not a movie, most of the soldiers are mobilized men, and Ukraine has already tried a few times. Turns out it’s not as cheap as one would have thought.
They likely want to stockpile weapons, train people better (especially commanders, since their recent attempts were just as Soviet-styled as what Russia does), make preparations. Maybe wait for something unexpected happening for Russia leading to it being distracted.
Or maybe they want to wait until the terrain freezes, so that it would be easier to push. Or the other way around - due to Russian problems in logistics, they want to push in the shortest possible window before frosts, so that territory taken would be easier to hold. I dunno, I’m not a military expert.
Democratic leadership hasn’t really done much for Ukraine. The Russians still have Bakhmut (their big gain from last winter). Almost the entirety of the Ukrainian counteroffensive has been dedicated to an area of land less than twenty kilometers across. Meanwhile, Russian forces are massing North of Kupyansk and Ukrainian supplies are drained.
The West doesn’t seem to really care about Ukraine - while Russia has been able to bring their economy into war footing in about a year, the West is happy to dig around and play accounting tricks to scrounge up what they can. The recent shipment of ATACMS missiles was, well…
“A surprising discovery could also ease the administration’s choice to send the weapons: The U.S. has found it has more ATACMS in its inventory than originally assessed.”
That’s what we’re stuck with? Hundreds of billions of dollars down the drain and aid is only being sent because they miscounted inventory?
Just goes to show you the disparity right? NATO is keeping ukraine in the fight against a country which brought its “economy into war footing in about a year” by sending whatever they find lying around down the back of the couch.
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Fast and cheap? Is that what you call losing 60 thousand lives to eke out a salient on low ground?
I said “in some moments”. There were days and places under Kherson a few months before.
Fuck you and tell your handler to go fuck themselves as well.
We in the West didn’t start this war. Ukraine didn’t start this war. RUSSIA STARTED THIS WAR.
Russia started it, Russia is responsible for all the death, destruction and misery going on.
We in the West are supporting Ukraine. We care about Ukraine and we want it to be free.
FUCK PUTIN & FUCK YOU!
You can put that in your filthy tankie report back to your degenerate masters.You tankies are filthy parasites.
If only you also were in the position to dictate this to Russia. Even the US isn’t in this position, and will never be.
do you live there
How? Ukraine’s made like a few square kilometers of progress with hundreds of billions of dollars of funding while Russia has just fallen back from their low ground territorial gains to the more easily defensible high ground.
What leverage does Ukraine even have for those demands?
Russia’s monetary system is in collapse and its economy is in free fall… the war took up 45% of its budget last year, its foreign exchange reserves have long since run dry and its first defensive line is slowly crumbling.
If it ends up being a war of endurance, Russia’s going to be in a far worse position in a year than they are now.
Russia’s manufacturing PMI is at, what, 55.9 this month? In fact, the Russian Bank is literally worried about higher than expected inflation because their economic output has been too high.
And of course, by slowly crumbling you mean that one salient near Robotyne? The one that’s known to be in a region of low ground surrounded by defences on high ground? That line?
Fact is, so long as India can keep buying Russian oil at whatever price OPEC dictates, Russia can keep financing the war. A lot of Russian industries can function entirely domestically (and thus don’t really stress foreign exchange reserves) - the main limiting factor I’d expect is high-tech electronics coming from India and China. Russia’s war economy has been remarkably resilient given the circumstances.
The reason for those small gains instead of hard ones is largely air support. The fighting on the ground is very reminiscent of world war I. That is not a good thing. They may seem like modest gains but in terms of that type of warfare they are pretty huge gains. The problem is that without air support it is going to be a long hard battle.
All that said, it is Ukraine’s territory. Russia could pack up and leave at any time.
How is Ukraine ever going to get air superiority? The West is basically trickle-feeding then equipment.
Yes, that is exactly what I implied.
Okay then the war would go on and on until your government collapsed. A peace agreement is actually good here given that they just showed they were unable to reclaim much land with their counter offensive.
They’ve shown no such thing. Stop believing everything you hear in the media.
I’m literally basing this on bloodthirsty weapon manufacturer adjacent media, who’s interests are unaligned with saying things are going badly. Even they are getting cold feet on the war, or saying there never was an offensive or the offensive hasn’t really started yet.
Russia is a terrorist country. Terrorists can’t be negotiated with. #SlavaUkraini
Russia can’t be accepted back into the international community until Putin is in a jail cell or in the ground.
While I’d like to believe this, if Putin comes to some peaceful agreement with Ukraine, the international community will just wait until people are distracted by the next big news story and then let Putin back in.
I’d rather be cynical and happily surprised than optimistic and disappointed.
Actually likely not, he’s been building international relations similarly to the Russian criminal code of behavior, and while it’s sad that even Americans and Europeans would consider this kinda acceptable, now he’s shown himself to be weak and humiliated. In other words, of the lower caste, and simply said, a pidor.
So no, he won’t be let back in. But some other (in appearances mostly, not in essence) government in Russia may.
simply said, a pidor.
isn’t that some kind of Turkish pizza?
I tried to look it up, I am only finding that it is a slur used to call people gay when they may or not be. U.S. equivalent seems to be like saying “Suck a dick, fag!” With pidor being the word at the end that would be shunned for being said.
I halted on submitting this over and over because I feel like I am going to get downvoted for using that term even to define a word/usecase. (Then I remembered the points don’t matter and intent changes context)
Well, in Russian it’s a swear word meaning a faggot, which refers to prison hierarchy.
I mean, by that logic we might as well dump everyone who’s started a major land war recently into the ground.
Iraq, Ukraine, Afghanistan… ah fuck, eh?
Sure let’s do it
Actually tho
US is still there though, being at the source of the death of 4.5 Millions humans since 2003! (washington post article).
What about, what about, what about
And? Should we not point hypocricy and double standards because it hurts your feelings?
This isn’t hypocrisy or a double standard. Your argument is unironically “because America did bad things we must let bad things happen everywhere.”
No one here is saying America smells like roses. Does that mean we can’t try to do good? Must we stand idle and let Ukrainians die when we could help them?
Russia can’t be accepted back into the international community
Veraticus
our argument is unironically “because America did bad things we must let bad things happen everywhere.”
NO, idiot (sorry, sometime, let’s call a cat, a cat). Your “community” would have no sense and credibility as they still have one of the biggest warmonger at their table. This is not a stupid “whataboutism” argument that you are all blindly paroting! So sndmn@lemmy.ca’s comment is stupid.
We, european, should not supply UA and follow USA’s plan in their proxy war. We should instead really work on a diplomatic level. BUT by playing the stupid rats we are, Putin has not reason to listen.
No tankie, no Putin-sucker, i’m just plain rational and honest dude.
No… you’re a tankie and Putin sucker 🙂
Who here said “we must let bad things happen”?
The commenter you replied to just mentioned that if we are outraged at Russia, we should be even more outraged at the US, and since a much longer time. But Ukraine and Russia are the only issues most hypocrites with double standards speak about. Say any criticism of the west and they lash out like is happening right here.
Because criticism of the west is totally irrelevant to the question. It’s not even whataboutism; it’s absurdity. Even if the west is literally Satan incarnate, why does that mean we have to let Putin wage whatever war of aggression he desires?
The people who advance this argument are so anti-US they’ve become dictator simps. I think it’s good to shove the absurdity of their positions back in their faces.
No, it’s pointing out a precedent set by the USA and allies that wholesale slaughter of innocents is acceptable to the international community. Russia’s invasion, whether legitimate or not, is no more spurious in its reasons than so many of the USA’s ones over the last how ever many decades.
That doesn’t make this one right, it just points out that the “rules based order” is a falsehood. Otherwise every US president in recent to not so recent history would also have an arrest warrant out for them, and the US would be sanctioned into the ground.
I generally have a hard time believing the US intends to do good outside of padding the pockets of corporate lobbyists and politicians. I’m not a fan of the whole “until the last Ukrainian” war that’s happening either.
This seems totally unrelated to my point.
Even if this is true, we can still try to do the right thing. And we should try.
But the United States did not carpet bomb half of the Middle East like Russia is doing to Ukraine. The United States did not level Baghdad, or Kabul. Last time I checked both of those cities were still standing.
Do you want to talk about what aboutism? Go look at The destruction of Aleppo. That was done by the Assad regime with the backing of Russia. The United States never inflicted that level of destruction anywhere close to the scale of that war which has killed over 600,000 people.
No, you shouldn’t do it because it’s stupid. If you had real arguments you would use them, but you don’t, so instead you trot out this garbage. It’s a sign of intellectual weakness and dishonesty.
If it really was such a bad and stupid argument, why can’t you address it? Spending paragraphs telling me an argument is bad without actually addressing it screens entitlement and incompetence to me.
Where did I “[spend] paragraphs telling [you] an argument is bad”?
Go ahead, I’ll wait.
Maybe you’ve mistaken me for someone else.
I used a few short and simple sentences to explain why your position is crap. That’s it.
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Paywalled article, meh doesn’t count.
Sorry to see you downvoted, but in ukraine topics you can’t have any other opinion then West=Good or you are a Putin apologist. We are back at cold war red scare disscusion levels, no nuace is allowed.
Most of those actual deaths were Muslims killing Muslims. Deaths caused by United States soldiers are comparatively low.
For example, the Iraqi body count website tracks 210,000 civilians killed between 2003 and 2020.
According to your article, it cites US-led wars in countries such as Pakistan, Libya, Yemen and Syria. However, the United States did not launch a war in any of those countries and certainly did not fight a war in Pakistan which is a US ally.
The Washington Post article as well as research from Brown University has Lucy affiliated anyone who has died outside of the expected peacetime death rate in any country in Africa in the Middle East to be attributable to the United States which is, frankly completely unfair. ISIL aka the Islamic State for instance killed tens of thousands of people, yet those deaths are attributed to the United States. Which is completely crazy!
While I was completely against the 2003 Iraq war, and even March and protest against it, the truth of the matter is that Saddam was a complete bastard, the bath is party were fascist, and destroying them created enormous power vacuum which resulted in chaos death and destruction. However, this was probably an inevitability Saddam wasn’t going to last forever and had no system of governance to transfer leadership to someone else. The Middle East has been well known for centuries as a chaotic and violent region of the world and Sunni and Shiite Muslims have been at war with each other since time immemorial.
I would understand if at least 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel would be comprised of western volunteers talking about terrorists and no negotiations.
But that is not a thing. So looks a bit ballsy, cause one would think that in a rather apocalyptic war on Ukraine’s soil, after they’ve reclaimed large swathes of territory, they’d be interested in some reduction of monthly casualties and rebuilding various capacities on that territory. Which a ceasefire would provide.
I mean, even if you are right, you are eagerly advocating for spending mobilized Ukrainian lives on a costly offensive.
what a ceasefire would provide
Like the 2014 ceasefire? All it does is give Russia the opportunity to retrench and dig in. When the Ukrainians ask for a ceasefire, then I’ll support one.
Like every ceasefire.
I suppose right now Ukraine just wants some better guarantees while it has a strong negotiating position.
So that it takes some effort from Putin to even be heard.
Or maybe what Zelensky says is what he means, you can’t negotiate with a pathological liar (just like a few of Ukraine’s allies, though) who doesn’t know how to lose with dignity. Be it a person or a whole elite of some country, like Russia. I mean, emotionally I’ve met some and I’d agree. Just don’t know what it is rationally.
Like every ceasefire.
Probably the reason Ukraine doesn’t want a ceasefire…
I’m only repeating what Ukrainians say. They know any concession with ruzzian terrorists now will only lead to ruzzian terrorists regrouping and reloading to perfom more genocide in a few months/years all over again. The fascist moscow regime needs to be stopped NOW.
The word “genocide” means something else (which, in case of Turkey and China and even Yazidis in Syria, most of the world has problems recognizing).
Yes, but Ukrainians need to regroup too.
Murdering, kidnapping and brainwashing Ukrainian children is genocide. Attempting to exterminate the Ukrainian people is genocide.
Murdering, kidnapping and brainwashing Ukrainian children is genocide.
Then we’ll have to introduce degrees of genocide.
Attempting to exterminate the Ukrainian people is genocide.
Which is not happening.
I block all russian trolls.
You don’t fucking know which things the words you use mean. And since you still dare voice your opinions on real world - blocking me is an important first step at stopping that.
I would understand if at least 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel would be comprised of western volunteers talking about terrorists and no negotiations.
Now do Russia. There must be more western volunteers on that side, I take it?
I obviously mean that you are talking too tough for somebody not participating.
Foundations of geopolitics? Fuck that, more war. More Ukrainians will die, and that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
More Ukrainians will die, and that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
I genuinely can’t tell if you are saying this ironically considering you are all over this thread defending Russia’s invasion.
Slava Ukraini was literally the battle cry of the OUN, which collaborated in the holocaust. Find a different motto.
Wait till you hear about the origins of Volkswagen.
Oh I know. I have a massive ax to grind on how little denazification happened after the war, especially in west Germany.
I block all ruscist trolls. You’re up!
SLAVA UKRAINI tell your czar putler his time is up. :)
K scratched liberal
.
“ahhhhhh splat” is the current warcry of the woefully unprepared orcs getting slaughtered in a war that could end today. maybe you guys could at least come up with something original before winding up as compost?
as expected tankies and brain-dead conservatives take issue with the fact I’m mocking the vatniks out there being converted into soil. guess what? I give as much a shit about you guys as the decomposing corpses of the mobiks, and find your opinions on the topic to be as usual, laughably silly and predictable. no, I’m not gonna have any need to humanise a bunch of trash that are invading another country. do I feel genuine sympathy for the conscripts who have no choice and no possibility to surrender? sure. that’s their lot unfortunatly, but you won’t find me crying over dead Russians in Ukraine
Calling russian soldiers orcs is litteral dehumanisation straight out of the faschists playbook. Can we please collectivly agree in not becoming the strawman putin used in his “justification” for this war?
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lol nope
“Slava Ukraini” is fascists slogan used by, and mainly associated with, the mass murderers of hundreds of thousands of Poles and Jews. I guess that doesn’t count as terrorism in your worldview.
Shut your face, ruzzian troll
Ah yes, “Glory to Ukraine,” seems like a super specific slogan that can only be associated with one movement. In no way is it a generically nationalist slogan.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SlCLSBr9sW0
See what they are doing while chanting “Slava Ukraini”? Notice the salutes? That’s the context of this becoming popular in Ukraine (again).
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ok bye now
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_Ukraini
You might want to specify whether you’re talking about the pre-WWI, post-WWI, WWII, USSR, or post-USSR meaning.
For reference, the current year is 2023.
I already responded to this in a reply to another user:
So it’s perfectly normal to revive a slogan that was last used by fascists? I’m sure the fact that Ukraine also made Bandera a national hero and put up statues of him and named streets in his honor right around the same time that slogan made its comeback is just a coincidence? Totally innocent slogan my ass.
You might be blind in your right eye if you think this isn’t some fascist shit. This is like “the swastika is an old Hindu symbol” type defense, only worse because you’re ignoring the Hitler portrait right next to it.
I’m blind in my left eye, thank you very much… but since we’re copying other comments:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
It’s mainly associated with “Ukrainian Nationalists” since WWI, adoped by the fascist organization which took part in the Holocaust and massacre of Poles, whose members have been granted veteran benefits in 2019, and its emblem is being used by present Ukrainians.
I’m not defending it, and as a Pole I’m definitely suspicious of Ukraine’s true intentions behind the slogan and the emblem… but I’m also pro-EU, and right now it’s better to support Ukraine, than to let Russia think about which EU member state to invade next.
Afterwards, if Ukraine wants to get its shit in order to a level where it could join the EU and NATO… then go ahead. Germany did it, Italy and Spain did it, and we’re all better for that.
Germany and Italy literally did not get rid fascism willingly, they were defeated and this was imposed on them. And being from Germany, I assure you denazification was incredibly half-assed.
Look at it for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SlCLSBr9sW0
They’re doing the salute and everything. That salute was introduced by the fascist OUN.
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FML… that is indeed the fascist salute.
I know de-nazification was half-assed; I lived in Italy, now I live in Spain, and man, 45 years after the fascist regime was “gone”, there are still those opposing the removal of some fascist symbols. They used to argue that “it’s too soon”, now they’re arguing “it’s too late, let them be”, while there are still people killed by the dictature laying unidentified in some ditch or another.
Guess we’ll have to live and see where it all goes.
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I really think “Slava Ukraini” is a fascist slogan, because it is. Since you’re mad at me for pointing it out, I suspect it might be you who would get banned if you said what you really think.
In April 1941 in German-occupied Kraków, the younger part of the OUN seceded and formed its own organisation, called the OUN-B after its leader Stepan Bandera. The group adopted a fascist-style salute along with calling “Glory to Ukraine!” and responding with “Glory to the Heroes!”. During the failed attempt to build a Ukrainian state on lands occupied by Germany after its invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, triumphal arches with “Glory to Ukraine!”, along with other slogans, were erected in numerous Ukrainian cities.
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So it’s perfectly normal to revive a slogan that was last used by fascists? I’m sure the fact that Ukraine also made Bandera a national hero and put up statues of him and named streets in his honor right around the same time that slogan made its comeback is just a coincidence? Totally innocent slogan my ass.
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Have a good day.
Look, you can’t just present an argument and then tell me not to reply.
The history of Ukrainian support of him is fairly new and is far more complicated than “we like fascists”,
I’d like to hear your arguments why worshiping the leader of an organization that took part in the Holocaust is somehow “complicated”. It’s not like this isn’t some well-known fact. Seriously, this is obviously totally fucked. Why would you feel to need to defend this? It’s not, actually, fucking complicated.
hostility so far
And whose fault is that?
No, it’s neither fascist, nor mainly associated with mass murderers to anyone except redfash
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
It’s mainly associated with “Ukrainian Nationalists” since WWI, adoped by the fascist organization which took part in the Holocaust and massacre of Poles, whose members have been granted veteran benefits in 2019, and its emblem is being used by present Ukrainians.
Meanings can change; denying history… is sus.
Nope
Lol right? I mean why would literally anyone trust Putin at this point?
I’m kind of confused why Prigozhin did what he did, even. He knew Putin was going to try to kill him afterwards, I had assumed he had his own play but I guess not.
His entire plan made very little sense. And he’s dead now so clearly whatever he thought he was doing definitely did not work out.
Yeah. I eagerly await whatever book will come out about it in a couple decades.
IIRC, I believe Putin found the family members of the people in his chain of command and threatened with their safety.
It’s pretty weird if Prigozhin didn’t have those people all locked down already, too. He knew the gravity of starting an armed rebellion and he knew as well as anyone how Putin operates.
As far as I recall, I read on a random article that his family was secured, but not the family of his close chain of command or something.
So he just messed up, then. Oops, now you’re dead.
Hasn’t he had pretty good relations with, like, literally all of BRICS?
So good he didn’t even show up there at the last conference in person because of pretty legitimate concerns they’d arrest him? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/putin-remotely-attends-brics-summit-in-south-africa-while-facing-war-crimes-warrant
Oh no! Not international law!
So are you arguing his relationship with BRICS is actually good despite them probably arresting them if he shows up? What would make a bad relationship in your eyes?
Hasn’t Lula already declared Putin is free to enter Brazil regardless of international law and potential sanctions?
We’ll see if he’s still dictator in a year to take advantage of that!
Lula walked this back literally just today btw.
That’s why he went to South Africa in that visit!
Haven’t you like, tried to paint Putin as not a bad guy in every post you have made in this thread?
Fucking shill.
So from having had a few exchanges with pro Russian accounts on Lemmy (which seems to be infested with a few very active ones) this is a summary of their arguments:
- “Ukraine is Nazi”
- “Well far right parties got a total of under 6% of the vote, and they elected a Jewish man president”
- “yeah but Bandera and whatabout America”
- “Ukraine killed ethnic Russians”
- “A huge percentage of their population are ethnic Russians, including in government, and they are fine, and were until the Russian invasion. And now it’s Russia that has killed, maimed and raped more ethnic Russians, including civilians, than Ukraine every did or even could. Including their own people thorough incompetence and corruption”.
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
- “Ukraine is fighting because they are forced to by their colonial masters, the USA and NATO, and Ukrainians will keep dying so long as they keep being armed”
- “Actually > 90% of the population wants to continue fighting for their country back, so what you’re basically saying is you think Ukrainians should be abandoned to Russian enslavement”
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
- “NATO and USA are colonialists and this is just more colonialism”
- “Actually both Russia and China are actual, bone fide land empires, with ethnic minorities that are forced to live like colonized people - including doing the fighting for Russia while their families back home live in misery and squalor and Putin’s Mafia collect mansions, private jets and yachts”
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
It was an invasion. Invasions are wrong. That should be the beginning and end of the debate.
I take it you had to deal with the Hexbears? Idiots.
Such a worthless use of brain cells. Imagine being the product of billions of years of evolution and becoming that.
I’m sure some are on a payroll. You don’t get a weird narrative like that started without planting a seed.
It’s not a coincidence they look like a better version of 2015 the_donald.
They even mocked me when I said I expected to get banned for saying that… and then banned me. Weird how that works.
Yes, the Russian troll farm pays me to post for the dozen weirdos who actually read this on here. Money well spent!
Makes perfect sense.
Ikr? I wonder what their parents think of them.
They said talking on a Lemmy.world post lmfao
they’re on other instances as well
edit: having to go through posts like these and blocking all the invader apologists isn’t fun, but it beats accidentally reading their drivel again
Didn’t lemmy.ca defed with Hexbear because someone called (in jest) for death to landlords while Canada experiences it’s biggest housing crisis ever and rents are rising rapidly YoY solely because landlords, who otherwise deliver no intrinsic value in their position, found a way to make more money from the increased demand?
No, that wasn’t the reason and if it’s the only one you can think of you have no idea how toxic and disgusting the hexbear community is. I hate landlords too but these people are really taking it so much further than joking about dead landlords.
And, as I recently got downvoted on lemmy.ca for pointing out, it’s not (directly) due to landlords, there’s just not enough houses built, and I can cite sources on that.
That was one of the big reasons made in the post about Hexbear defed.
The other ones were nebulous concerns about Hexbear comments in other instances… Which, by definition, is the responsibility of those other instances.
The idea that you can’t judge anyone by actions not in your personal instance is just such terminally online idiocy. Trolls always seem shocked that their behavior might actually follow them around rather than being conveniently compartmentalized so they can start their trolling fresh before burning out a new instance.
“Well far right parties got a total of under 6% of the vote, and they elected a Jewish man president”
6%, damn, that sounds serious. Let’s check how many seats the nationalist party in Russia got. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Russia
72.22%. Okay then.
There’s a reason Western Europe focuses on the Nazis in the context of the Holocaust: the Nazis never saw the Western Europeans as a stain on the Earth like they did the Jews and the Slavs. Russians don’t need to point to Jews to claim Nazism: they can point directly to the treatment of ethnically Russian Slavs during WW2 and the plans that Nazi Germany had for the eradication of Slavs.
Russia doesn’t need to point at how Ukraine treats Jews because to Russia, the Holocaust is dwarfed in societal impact by the issues that motivated Operation Barbarossa. The Russians lost 19 million Russian civilians in the war, why would they care about the Jews?
Nevermind that minorities in China get so many advantages it’s actually silly how much affirmative action goes on. Provinces dominated by minorities get significantly more funding per capita and even get loss-leading infrastructure projects like the Tibet and Xinjiang railways. Students from minorities get additional bonuses on gaokao (basically SAT, but imagine if schools didn’t look at anything else). Minorities are exempt from family planning policies and get massive interest-free loans for starting businesses. They get proportional representation in government. Hell, there are 55 minority groups in China making up 8% of the population.
In the army? The prevalence of rural populations in the army has been observed AROUND THE WORLD. It’s a function of rural communities being rather poor and underserved by governments in general, as well as the lack of economic opportunities that living on a farm provides. In fact, the entire notion of the underserved countryside is what allowed communism to rise in Russia and China.
“whatabout America” - “nooo you can’t just call me out on hypocrisy, it makes me look bad”
That all sounds like brigading emotional nonsense. In fact, there were strong reasons for Russia to invade. It is probably true that Russia was manipulated into invading, it had no choice because of strategic decisions made by Ukraine. It’s a shame none of the people you talked to were able to argue the issues sensibly.
Very true. Russia (well, putin) has shown over and over that he can’t be trusted, he will stab you in the back and he will murder you.
Hell, the entire land grab from Ukraine was going against accords made where Russia promised to allow Ukraine to exist as a sovereign nation and Russia would get all their nukes. Russia got the nukes and theb went on to invade and steal Crimea and then to just drop all pretence and invade the entire Ukraine.
Just give some shitty transparent excuses, mumble something about non existent Nazis, and just steal lands.
So no, you can’t make deals with Putin
However, Ukraine is in a tight spot. They still rely on the west (and mostly United States)for the Weapons and gear they use on the war. Russia has the Republican party in their pocket and if the Republican party (or worse trump) wins the election, they’ll at the least stop all Help and likely hand the Ukraine to Russia on a silver platter.
This means they basically gotta gain as much as possible before the US elections, which is why they’re grinding on so much without the proper air support they’ll start having at the end of the year. It sucks, but it’s the situation they’re in.
It’s impressive though to see how much they advance without air support. Slava Ukraine!
His plane “crashed”? You mean after it was shot with AA missiles right?
It was not shot down, here is a short video with a detailed explanation on why the most likely thing that happened was a bomb onboard.
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No no, that was before crash.
Yeah exactly - let’s not get things twisted here. The being blown out of the sky by AA and the crash are 2 entirely separate situations involving the same plane that happened close together, that’s all. Yep.
Jesus the fucking ignorance here.
It’s pretty damn clear at this point it was a bomb on board.
No one is saying Putin didn’t do it. Just that the evidence is that whomever did do it, did it with a bomb.
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A wing an the tail fell of… chance in a million /s
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Ironically the CIA believes Putin killed Prigozhin to defuse tensions with NATO for exiling Wagner to Belarus.
If Putin wants to defuse tensions with NATO, he knows what to do.
Retreat from Ukraine, then fall out of a window.
Right, pullout, like Putin’s daddy should have done.
I’m skeptical the government would allow him to do that.
He’s not actually a god-king. If a leader ever became a threat to the power structure, he’d be eliminated. Just ask JFK 🙃
I don’t think you can compare those situations. Putin has had everyone fall out the window that was a threat to his power. Or accidentally get himself stabbed with poison by a Russian agent. Or pour themselves poisoned tea definitely nobody else poisoned.
In the west we say Putin, like he’s some sorta boogieman. In the US our politicians are essentially puppets with some corporation’s hand up their ass. Yes, Putin has been in power for years; that doesn’t mean he isn’t in power because he keeps the oligarch’s money flowing. The second the money flow comes into question, someone falls from a window.
Now I’m not saying Putin isn’t the one ordering the hits - he could be and also potentially couldn’t be. What I am saying is that there are often multiple versions of the truth and/or layers to that truth.
I think Zelenskyy is right, don’t make deals with the devil. But there’s a 100% certainty that this isn’t only “Putin’s War” and there are more players, potentially those with their hand deep in Putin’s ass, pulling his puppet-strings
You think Putin is the one personally pushing people out of windows?
This is bigger than he is - he’s a figurehead of a power bloc within the government, he isn’t god.
Since when do leaders have to personally execute every command? He surrounded himself with yes men for decades.
Just ignore that obvious shill. The other day they were denying the importance of education to combat propaganda. It’s obvious where their loyalties lie.
Did Putin conquer Russia all by himself?
The idea that he’s some kind of lonely tyrant and accountable to no-one really implies that he actually is a god, like he somehow managed to take over the largest country on Earth and rule it with an iron fist and there wasn’t anyone else that helped him get there or helps him stay there (and could help him “retire” if he ever became a problem)
I’ve never said he alone is responsible for everything. For example, he has loads of assholes trying to defend him online.
Good night.
Putin is, for all intents and purposes, an absolute ruler. He’s a lot closer to being the “god-king” of Russia than you appear to think.
Absolute rulers don’t actually exist. That’s fantasy stuff for kids books.
Even under feudalism and in ancient empires the leader wasn’t actually like that, they could always go too far and be replaced (with lots of violence of course)
yeah sure, he will surrender to a comedian who didn’t even go through compulsory military service. Hallo, this guy played piano with his dick on TV.
what a shame, real people are dying and this zelensdick plays the victim in his castle.
Or you know, Russia could just have not attacked in the first place.
Putin is the laughingstock of the world.
Which is why he put in a military expert as commander in chief, even though he’s legally entitled to that position. Almost like he knows how to delegate like a leader
aww are you scared of the big bad comedy man? perhaps you needn’t be if russia just skedaddled back whence they came from
this guy played piano with his dick on TV
Maybe it’s probably not necessary to kickass the “world’s #2 strongest army” but knowing how to use your dick certainly doesn’t hurt obviously.
I, for one, think it’s pretty fucking hilarious and incredible that the “world’s second best army” is getting curbstomped by a country led by a guy who played piano with his dick on TV.
You might need to check your sources about how the war is going… Russia hasn’t committed its full army to this war.
not that I don’t believe you, but do you have sources yourself? Lotta propaganda flying everywhere
And https://understandingwar.org/publications
Generally you want to look at the sources that the military use and not sources the media use to justify their positions.
This doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. It’s not the case that Russia is somehow holding back and has huge additional reserves and resources that it can throw at the conflict. The Russian military isn’t about to collapse or anything, but it’s not doing great either and has largely been exposed as far weaker than was previously supposed.
Yes I agree, particularly in the fact that the corruption and facade that was the Russian military reporting structure made it seem to Russian leadership that they were more powerful than they thought. This is the problem with having so many yes men surrounding an authoritarian leader.
However as we’re hitting the two year mark on the war soon, the Russian military has likely become more competent and less corrupt than before with the increased attention.
Russia can’t commit its full army to the war, for quite a few reasons. One of which is that it’s “full army” has been decisively proven to be WAY more of a paper tiger than anybody would have guessed.
The scale and duration of this war are orders of magnitude are far larger than anyone in Russia was planning for in January of 2022. They discovered that their battalions were rife with ghost soldiers so the officers could scoop up their pay. They discovered their modern tank stockpiles were not only unmaintained, but also often scavenged for parts to either repair other vehicles or simply sell on the black market. They discovered that, incredibly, their Air Force was unable to fully suppress a force that (on paper) was a mere fraction of their size and supposed capability.
This is scratching the surface. This shit goes way deeper, and it involves their whole military industrial complex, as well as pretty much all seriously profitable ventures in Russia. If money is made at any serious scale, someone’s going to put together a scheme to take a cut of it. That’s how the country works. And it’s biting them in the ass right now.
Yup I agree. But much like the Ukrainians were able to mobilize, Russia is doing the same. The paper tiger isn’t all paper though, they really do have 5 times the population as Ukraine.
So, you’re saying Putin can’t back down because he would look like a fool, but somehow people dying is fault of Zelenskyy for not being at the front, just like Putin?
Lmao cope harder, tankie. Russia went from the “second best army in the world” to the 3rd best army operating openly in the Ukraine AO. Russia has proven themselves to be a joke, militarily - they went from being considered a superpower to being a peer-power of Ukraine. That’s a fucking HUGE step down in geopolitical clout and military credibility.
I don’t know what to think, are you sad there’s few dead toll on UA side. Russia especially proved they were not in clean-slate mode. Do you really think they wouldn’t use aviation if they wanted “more”, really?
Between, UA is supplied by our governments (and certainly on the intel side too), so it is not just “UA” against RU, idiot!
Again I think you need to do some research on this…
Tank(ie) you for your valuable comment!
cringe
A day earlier, Prigozhin published a video purportedly from Africa. Next day, he managed to get himself killed on a flight from Moscow. While being exiled.
Not sure what the CIA believes, but it’s all sus AF.
It was a flight from St Petersburg to Moscow, but yes why he was allowed in the country after being exiled shows that in Russia their rules aren’t cut and dry.
From Moscow: https://www.reuters.com/graphics/RUSSIAN-CRASH/PRIGOZHIN/dwvkaealmvm/
There were two jets though, the other one did the roundtrip fine.
Ahh, apologies I thought it was St P to Moscow, I was wrong.
I mean, obviously?
But that would counter Zelensky’s argument.
You mean Zelensky was wrong? No way!
Facts
This is the best summary I could come up with:
As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.
The Wagner leader’s dramatic death, which followed a short-lived rebellion that threatened the authority of the Russian president, was a warning to be heeded, Zelensky suggested.
While the United States and other key Ukrainian allies continue to supply weapons to Kyiv, and stress that conditions to pursue a “just and durable” peace are not yet in place, a handful of world leaders, such as Brazil’s Lula Da Silva, have put the onus on Ukraine to end the war.
As evidence for his position, Zelensky cited other countries which have been attacked by Russian soldiers and continue to be partially occupied by them.
Ukraine has made incremental gains in the south amid fierce fighting with Russian troops, accounts from the front lines suggest.
Geolocated videos on Friday showed a wasteland of shell holes, abandoned trenches and wrecked military hardware in the area between Robotyne, Verbove and Novoprokopivka — a triangle of villages that hold the key for Ukrainians to getting closer to Tokmak, an important hub for Russian defenses.
The original article contains 282 words, the summary contains 201 words. Saved 29%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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I love you hexbear tankies. It makes all the stupid things I’ve done in my life look not as stupid in retrospect. You’re a nice ego boost!
Zelensky has forgotten to mention Mink and Mink2 agreement that he and EU have broken, thus lying to Russia, and even admitted it.
Using terrorist to talk about russian’s state army, well identified, sounds fishy to me.
looking for a EU only fediverse instance. I’m fed up of us trolls.
People really want to see more Ukrainians die, huh?
If there isn’t going to be any peace discussions from Ukraine … how does this ever end?
With Russia packing up their shit and going back to the pre 2014 borders.
So you think it’s all or nothing for Ukraine?
If someone invades your country and kills your countrymen you don’t negotiate with them. You tell them to get the fuck out or we’ll kill every one of you motherfuckers that decides to continue being on our land. Why? You going to advocate being like Chamberlain? Or Quisling? What do you suggest someone does if their country is invaded?
So we’re fighting to the last Ukrainian then?
They are, mate. You act like the West is standing behind Ukraine threatening to shoot anyone that retreats. We’re sending em guns and money, if they wanted to stop fighting they could make that decision tomorrow.
You haven’t seen the video of the Ukrainian lieutenant throwing a grenade into the trench of the Ukrainian soldiers who disobeyed an order to charge the front. Or the daylight kidnappings of Ukrainian citizens by the recruitment officers.
I sure haven’t
How do you show you’ve never heard of the war of the triple alliance or of Paraguay, without saying war of the triple alliance or Paraguay.
Weirdly specific
Sorry, I was on a long canoe trip without internet access.
It is specific for a reason.
It feels good to say that you will support a country that wishes to fight to its last inhabitants. It sounds good. It sounds macho. Very few people actually think about the actual consequences to a policy like that.
But, we have a real life example, and it is horrible beyond description. Sometimes, if you can make people see the horror and blood of a macho pithy saying, maybe you can get them to see the actual cost of that macho pithy saying.
Sometimes, sadly, giving up is the right thing to do.
Sometimes, sadly, giving up is the right thing to do.
I get it, but if you are just trying to make the point that, if a country thinks they’ll eventually lose, it’s better for everyone if they give up quickly … then this historical example doesn’t seem relevant.
Given that Ukraine already gave up quickly once (in Crimea) and that Russia simply waited until it was convenient to invade them again, I’m sure you can understand why Ukrainians think it’s necessary to fight this one out.
Now, the war of the Triple Alliance is often held up as an example of how a minority of belligerents can create massive devastation by continuing a guerilla war after losing the conventional war; if Ukraine seems in danger of losing the conventional war, I’ll admit it’s a relevant parallel, otherwise it isn’t terribly relevant.
Do you think Russia will unconditionally surrender and stop fighting when Ukraine reaches the Russian border?
Do you think Ukraine is going to invade Russia after they push them to the border?
I don’t think Ukraine is about to conquer Russia or capture Moscow, even if they wanted to or if we want them to.
Do you think Russia will unconditionally surrender and stop fighting when Ukraine reaches the Russian border?
I have no idea. Even if they don’t, Ukraine just has to defend their territory, which they have proven more than capable of.
The only one party that can end this conflict is the aggressor.
A safety buffer zone of a few kilometers, on the Russian side, past the Ukrainian country, sounds reasonable. Depending on how far they still keep shooting.
More likely there will simply be no peace and they’ll technically stay at war, with a huge minefield in between the two countries, until one of them runs out of money.
You don’t negotiate with terrorists.
The UK negotiated with the IRA.
The US negotiated with the Japanese.
The allies negotiated with the Nazis.
I’m fine with the Japanese solution, which Russian cities should we delete?
The German solution seems awfully similar.
I really don’t like how often I see people ok with the idea of nuclear war. I like Fallout as much as the next person but I don’t think it’s an accurate representation of nuclear apocalypse.
I’m fine with winning the lottery. That isn’t likely either.
Ukraine doesn’t have nukes, so the Japanese solution is off the table.
Ukraine isn’t about to conquer Moscow, so the German solution isn’t feasible either.
North Korea has nukes, you’re honestly telling me ukraine, the ones who figured it out in the soviet union, can’t figure it out too?
Ukraine is the smart remnant of the soviet union, Russia needs to surrender out of sheer terror.
No, but the US does. I, for one, as an SSBN sailor, am ready and willing to set condition 1SQ for Strategic nuclear launch at any time. Slava Ukraini, HOOYAH AMERICA. Kill the Bear!
I’m pretty sure the negotiations consisted on total surrender and heavy controls of power in the three cases, which Zelenskyy agrees on. Just giving more territories to Russia is not what they want. That would only mean a new offensive in a few years.
In other words, even Zelensky knows there’ll have to be negotiations somewhere down the line.
It’s just a question of when and under which circumstances.
It’s in Ukraine and Europe’s interests, that these negotiations occur when Russia has been pushed back to the border. Otherwise they’ll have been rewarded for their military adventurism.
And obviously Russia can’t be trusted, so the moment a cease fire is signed, it’s imperative that Ukraine gets defacto NATO membership (or something approaching it) and is armed to the teeth.
They had been open to negotiations in the past, and surely are open now, but the first step is for Russia to get the fuck off Ukraine and stop the aggression. It’s not a negotiation of your have a knife to your neck.
The US negotiated with the Japanese.
The allies negotiated with the Nazis.
You know both these groups surrendered unconditionally, right?
Yes. The terms were harsh, but ultimately both parties agreed to them. A negotiated settlement.
Note also how the reality is slightly more nuanced. For example, Hirohito remained in power and all members of the Imperial House were spared criminal prosecution. That was an unfortunate but necessary compromise. If the world was fair, they’d have hanged them all, just like much of the Nazi establishment.
This also why at one point Japanese officials, basing themselves on the Potsdam Declaration, argued to MacArthur that Japan’s surrender had in fact been contractual and conditional. Obviously he told them to go fuck themselves, and because the country was by now occupied, there wasn’t exactly much they could do about it.
It’s unfortunate, but this is almost certainly what will happen with Russia. A ceasefire will be agreed under conditions both parties accept. The better Ukraine does, the worse the conditions will be that Russia is forced to accept. With a bit of luck, the conditions will be so bad that Putin falls out of a window and is replaced with someone slightly more sane.
Once the ink is dry, the west will hopefully arm Ukraine to the gills, perhaps institute a no fly zone, give them NATO membership or something approaching it, etc. etc.
But before that happens there will still need to agree to a ceasefire, hence all wars end with a negotiated settlement, unless you engage in genocide.
That worked out really well lol
Literally yes. If they capitulate it’s only a matter of time before Putin tries again, either by fomenting a revolution and installing another pro-Russia dictator, or restarting the war. This is a fight for the very survival of Ukraine.
Survival of human beings 👎
Survival of the nation 👍
Putin is trying to kill both. Those human beings deserve to live and they deserve a country too – the country they are dying to defend.
I think them conscripts would rather do something other dying for their country. I know I would.
Have you ever read Catch-22? Yossarian likes to go on about how everybody is trying to kill him. If you’re a Ukrainian soldier it’s not just Putin who’s out to kill you. It’s your own government too, and apparently the average western lib on this very internet forum.
If you believe this why are you not advocating for the Russian conscripts who are forced to fight a madman’s war of aggression and territorial expansion? Like sympathizing for the Ukrainian troops forced to fight is fine but I think you fail to realize the alternative for them is to die at the hands of the Russian military.
Only one side here is engaged in a purely optional war of territorial expansion. And it isn’t “the west” or Ukraine.
Ukrainians would disagree; they’re the ones to want to fight and if their government tried to give up, they’d throw them out and find someone willing to keep going
Either you give them land from which they can prepare their next attack or you show them that they’re unable to take and hold land. So yeah. Pretty much.
I mean at the current pace it’s just all or all, nothing doesn’t seem possible anymore unless something big happens.
So it doesn’t end?
Edit: barring NATO rolling in and starting WW3 that’s clearly not gonna happen. So what’s next?
Why are you arguing for Ukraine to forgive and forget the rapes and murders and to give up parts off their country to the perpetrators rather than arguing for Russia to go back to Russia?
Clearly Russia isn’t going to do that, no matter how much a bunch of nobodies argue for it online.
Which actually realistic path leads to less dead people?
Putin being killed by his own people for leading them to this catastrophe.
Negotiations don’t exist for Russia, they are known for breaking all agreements anyways. Russia is not trustworthy in the slightest, they have never missed to prove that. You don’t push the trigger on a loaded gun and hope for it to not fire. If you believe otherwise you desperately need to get out of you bubble and drink less Vodka.
Russian people killing Putin is the only way to end this sooner.
Putin-fanboys love to say “Ukraine needs to negotiate an end to this war” but like to forget that this war started because RuZZia shat on a treaty ensuring the sovereignty of Ukraine in exchange for their nuclear arms.
It doesn’t matter that Russia’s word can’t be trusted.
Push Russia back to the border so that their invasion isn’t rewarded, negotiate a ceasefire, then almost immediately make Ukraine a (defacto) NATO member, protect their airspace, no fly zone, arm them to the teeth.
The Russians are far better at keeping their word, when they know that they are weak, and that it benefits them.
Clearly this bully isn’t going to stop trying to take your lunch money. If you continue trying to defend yourself it’s just going to lead to more fights and you getting hurt more. If you just give up your lunch money peacefully then it’ll be better for everybody!
You can’t just boil geopolitics down like that.
The longer this goes the more people die. We can’t seem to stop Russia without plunging the world into more war…
The longer you keep fighting back, the more you will keep being hit. We can’t seem to stop the bully without you getting hurt more, so just be a good little boy and hand over your lunch money peacefully. And when the bully demands the contents of your backpack, hand that over to avoid more bloodshed. And when he demands your hat, hand that over too. You don’t want to keep getting hurt, do you?
Then russia suffers until they learn (so probably forever).
Ukraine has the will and the west has the means to make this a very painful lesson, maybe even Russians can learn this time.
By every account Russia has the manpower to outlast Ukraine in this. I’m sure whoever is left in Ukraine once NATO is done teaching Russia this “lesson” will be so glad to have been a part of this.
If you lay off the Kremlin propaganda for a minute you’ll realize what a laughing stock they are to the real militaries in the world.
By every account Russia has the manpower to outlast Ukraine in this.
Wars don’t end because you kill everyone on the other side. The American revolutionaries didn’t murder every single English citizen on the face of the earth. Yet, they still won.
The point is to last long enough and inflict enough losses that the other side does not want to continue the war. In Clausewitzian terms, even if you can’t win the Trial of Strength, you can still win the Battle of Wills.
I’m sure whoever is left in Ukraine once NATO is done teaching Russia this “lesson” will be so glad to have been a part of this.
Ukraine is an independent country that is completely capable of deciding for themselves whether, and at what cost, they want to keep fighting off a foreign invader occupying their territory. This is also part of the “Battle of Wills”.
I’m not saying that NATO and its members don’t have an interest in the conflict, but the tell-tale sign that you’re regurgitating Russian propaganda is that in your arguments Ukraine has no agency.
Wow… you’re delusional.
You really been huffing that Russian propaganda, huh? It’ll turn your brain to mush, you should really stop.
Bro, hand me some of that copium you’re having, seems like the strong kind!
So what’s next?
who knows, but maybe some progress will be made when more modern weapons can be fired from western F16’s. It likely won’t have a huge impact, but every little bit helps
With Russia leaving. They started this war. Fuck off with your “If there isn’t going to be any peace discussions from Ukraine … how does this ever end?”
Ukraine, and only Ukraine can be the one to talk about any negotiations. I’ll back their decisions whether it’s to fight to the bitter end, or stop and give up. Their people control their destiny. Russia on the other hand is the one that could simply bring an end to this by leaving. They could have brought peace in fact by simply never killing others. You’re victim blaming. Fuck off.
Why is it that country A starts occupying parts of country B, and some people start expecting country B to have peace discussions (ie, give land to country A)? There should be calls to country A to stop occupying country B’s land, and that’s it.
That’s how they have decided to spin this: co-opt the language of peace and dialogue to justify aggression.
Too bad it’s so obviously transparent.
I suppose your definition of being “pro-peace” involves sending billions in weapons?
Yup. Russia doesn’t understand diplomacy. Only force. It’s sad that russia acts this way, so, unfortunately, beating them is the only way to have lasting peace.
That or leadership change but I don’t think putler fears anything more than losing power and the people are either weak or live in a propaganda bubble.
Peace through Superior firepower.
There can be no peace if one side wants to wipe your very existence out.
I suppose you think the Russians have a right to invade, kill and rape Ukraine?
Well technically, considering historical precedent, anyone who feels they have more might than their neighbours has the right to do whatever they want to do to them. Historically, that was mostly conquest. Other’s use that might for what can generally be construed as the common good. (EG. Team America world police)
Ultimately the one who decides what is right and wrong is the collective, and honestly, the world is much less unified in its opinion than it probably should be.
Great, then let’s give ukraine f15es, fleets of predators and more, give them them much more might than their neighbor and let them solve this solution.
I’m fine with ukraine demonstrating that might means right.
Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I referring to.
if only your heros had billions* in weapons to use lol
- in USD, not rubles. Watching the red army collapse has been one of the few joys of the past few years
Yeah, unironically it does in this instance.
Russia doesn’t need to ask permission to leave, they just leave.
Seems like a lot fewer Russians and Ukrainians will die if the Russians left ukraine.
with all invaders dead, captured or back where they came from
Showing your math, how do you think that happens?
By making the invasion so untenable that they fuck off.
Which is what is happening.
in a sentence, tell me why I shouldn’t add you to my long and growing block list full of tankies
You should; they are.
Because there is no faster way to turn off critical thinking then to self-enforce an echo-chamber?
But whatever, you do you. I don’t actually give a shit if you block me. Like, holy fuck, “In a sentence, tell me why you deserve to be my friend.” God, I wish I had that sort of self-confidence. That may be why you want to live in an echo chamber, though.
It ends the second russia withdraws its troops or they are beaten out of Ukraine.
It takes two to make peace. And how can there’s be peace after the mass murder, torture and kidnapping of children, destruction and death wrought upon Ukraine.
If Canada did that to the USA, how keen for peace would you be exactly?
There can only be peace if there is justice.
Oh, so, war?
Korea ended in peace. Vietnam ended in peace. Iraq ended in peace. Afghanistan ended in peace. Hell, even China-Taiwan ended in what, by any means, could be defined as peace.
War and peace are intricately tied together and compromises are often made to save lives. Did the KMT never trade with the CCP again after literally getting booted out of their own country? Did China never trade with Japan again despite millions of people dead, raped, and experimented on?
Good question, every war ends in some kind of negotiation, even for surrender. I think when Russia loses, Putin is unlikely to keep power, and some sort of agreement will happen without him.
Russia can, very straightforwardly, retreat to Russia. Boom, peace!
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Hey… stop making sense! All the bots and teenagers here think you’re stupid!
Peace? Are you crazy??? You keep that kinda smart talk to yourself! We don’t use the P word here! Here we just want to be angry all the time and blame some imaginary enemy for all our problems.
I agree, let’s have peace! Russians should go the fuck home
