All autocrats are my enemy
Anyone have a high res version of original pic?
You can put the low quality image into Google lens to find higher quality ones :)
Ehh these highly nationalist states def aint my friend. Yes all bourgeoisie should be supressed globally.
China is Socialist, so it already suppresses the bourgeoisie. Russia and Iran are nationalist, but this nationalism also puts them at odds with western Imperialism and towards countries like China. Aligning with the Western bourgeoisie against Russia and Iran weakens the chance of them becoming Socialist, as it would likely result in an opening of their markets to foreign plunder and perpetuation of Imperialism. On the other hand, by siding against Western Imperialism, they become more integrated into the Chinese side of the global economy, pushing them towards Socialism.
I wouldn’t say Russia and Iran are friends, they certainly aren’t Socialist by any stretch, but they can be depended on insofar as they work against the system by which the West collectively loots and plunders the Global South, depressing its development.
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Marx never once said that the bourgeoisie cannot exist under Socialism. Marx said that Communism, which is after the transition from Capitalism to Communism (which Lenin and other Marxists post-Marx call “Socialism”), is the means by which to sublimate private property (and therefore eliminate class society once and for all). Here’s a line from the Communist Manifesto:
We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class, is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class, to win the battle of democracy.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i. e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible.
This phase is described by Marx as such in Critique of the Gotha Programme:
Between capitalist and communist society lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other.
Marx stated that the job of the Proletarian state is to gradually appropriate Private Property and to fold it into the public sector. Why? Well, here’s an example from The German Ideology:
We shall, of course, not take the trouble to enlighten our wise philosophers by explaining to them that the “liberation” of man is not advanced a single step by reducing philosophy, theology, substance and all the trash to “self-consciousness” and by liberating man from the domination of these phrases, which have never held him in thrall. Nor will we explain to them that it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world and by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. “Liberation” is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse…[There is here a gap in the manuscript]
In short, the job of Socialist society is to immediately sieze large and key industries, and gradually appropriate industry and sectors that grow over time. It isn’t an instantaneous transformation into Communism, there is a protracted period of sublimation of property relations as the material processes develop and give way to socialist relations.
You are replying to a deleted meme. Yes ive read marx. I think i just disagree with your assessment that china will hit the communism button after western imperialism is somehow dismantled.
You don’t create Communism by pressing the “Communism button,” though, that’s the entire point of Scientific Socialism as created by Marx and Engels. You achieve it through development, under a State controlled by the Proletariat. The PRC’s economy is already Socialist, the large firms and key industries are firmly public and the medium firms are heavily controlled, as long as it keeps developing and stays the course it will continue to develop as a Socialist country will.
Holy moly im being sarcastic mate. Yes it is a historical process, but i believe what is happening in china is closer to state capitalism than socialism…i would even say it leans a certain flavor of corpratism ie fascism. The socialism sticker on the front is meaningless to me. You are still upholding the bourgeoisie and capitalist social relations including imperialism ie weatlth extraction abroad meanwhile suppressing labor at home… I definitely would not call it proletarian rule by any means. Add on to that the strong nationalist fervor, and well ya man i dunno what to tell you. I guess everything is socialism since we are all a part of the historical process towards communism.
The “Socialism Sticker” is having a Socialist economy, where the overwhelming majority of the large firms and key industries are publicly owned and planned, and Capital movement is heavily restricted if not approved by the CPC. They do not “uphold the bourgeoisie” or “Capitalist social relations,” they are gradually dismantling them as Marx said they should be, by gradually wresting Capital from them as public ownership becomes economically required for further advancement, all under a Proletarian State. There is no other way to abolish the bourgeoisie than by erasing their economic foundations:
The essential condition for the existence, and for the sway of the bourgeois class, is the formation and augmentation of capital; the condition for capital is wage-labour. Wage-labour rests exclusively on competition between the labourers. The advance of industry, whose involuntary promoter is the bourgeoisie, replaces the isolation of the labourers, due to competition, by their revolutionary combination, due to association. The development of Modern Industry, therefore, cuts from under its feet the very foundation on which the bourgeoisie produces and appropriates products. What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable.
China is still a developing country, it can’t just whisk away all elements of commodity production, especially not in the context of a Capitalist-dominated global economy which it needs to interact with in order to supplant, such as by building up the Global South through multilateral infrastructure deals (such as BRI).
And no, China is not Imperialist, and it isn’t suppressing labor at home. This is just vague gesturing, hard analysis finds that neither of these assertions hold water. To further jump and call the PRC fascist is ludicrous, and indicates an utter lack of understanding of Socialism and fascism in general, fascism is a bourgeois society exerting its Capitalist strength to crush worker organizations, not a Socialist state that eliminates extreme poverty, combats desertification, pushes for multilateralism and decolonization, and has a majority publicly owned economy.
and yet nobody would want to live there. terrible regimes are the enemey. and they are the most terrible. pretty much makes them the enemy.
Why are all you nationalist liberals posting in this communism com.
I’d absolutely live in China, but I’d probably move back due to family. I definitely see the US Empire and all who enable it to be greater evils, considering the relentless plunder of the Global South propping them up and the brutal genocide in Palestine that is deemed necessary by the US and its vassels.
easy said when you have nothing to say. you could live there if you stop caring about being free or having the freedom to just read what you want. it’d be a sad life.
I have quite a lot I can say, I spend a good amount of time reading up on China and Marxism-Leninism in general. If you have a specific area to talk about, we can! I certainly would feel more free in China than I do in the US, and I’d be fine reading what I want. It certainly wouldn’t be a sad life.
Russia is absolutely not my friend.
No, other capitalist powers arent, but you have more in common with a random Russian than Warren Buffet, just as they have more in common with you than Putin and his fellow billionaires.
And if Russia falls it strengthens your enemy at home. An independent shitty Russia is closer to proletarian revolution than a US dominated Russia, and that is what would happen if the US defeated Russia.
There’s a theoretical revolution. There’s a real and ongoing mass-killing of civilians.
Yeah, being carried out by our enemy at home.
Ok. No one said it was, but thanks for letting us know?
Maybe it’s just my narrow perception but, it seems to me that most of the class war illustrations are old. I know the class war has been going on forever but, why aren’t more modern illustrations as popular?
The old ones have their appeal, but I found a couple new ones. Maybe people prefer the older drawings to newer ones because the newer ones could be AI.
Oh for sure, I’m not a fan of AI. Thanks for sharing those illustrations.
No prob. The 3rd one was a pre-internet older meme though. I reread what I said and it wasn’t clear that the 3rd one was an older one. I tend to overthink sometimes.
Part of the value in showing the old illustrations is to show that we are a part of a centuries-long struggle against Capitalism, and a thousands of years long struggle against Class society. Plus, the Soviet Union made tons of these, and it’s no longer here. There are modern artists, but these draw the reader into a connection with our predecessors.
1989 Tiananmen Square massacre, Soviet gulags, Russian war on Ukraine, Iran is quite lacking on human rights too.
Shitlibs have been reduced to squawking out off topic, sentence fragment, thought terminating cliches.
Is your point that China, Russia (both Socialist during the USSR and Capitalist during the Russian Federation), and Iran are all generally evils that must be opposed? What’s your point, exactly, are you denying class analysis?
My point being Russia and China are both authoritarian and consequently have a history of doing bad shit to people. Iran was just a nice add on. Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying by any means that capitalism is without its faults but it’s far better than getting disappeared because you said something the supreme leader doesn’t like. What America needs is not authoritarian or communism but government regulated capitalism like what they have over in the EU.
The US and EU are also authoritarian and consequently have a history of doing bad shit to people as well, even currently as both are actively supporting the genocide of Palestine in order to protect their Imperialist super-profits. I think your point is very under-developed, you grabbed some talking points out of a bag and rolled them out on the table without giving any of them support, context, or applying them to a further analysis. Taken critically, your point is just "Russia/China/Iran bad because they are Russia/China/Iran," not a systemic critique.
What the world needs is certainly Communism, eventually, but the way to get there is through Socialism, as found in the PRC, Cuba, etc. The regulated Capitalism of the EU runs on Imperialism, just like the US. The EU super-exploits the Global South through unequal exchange, perpetuating the underdevelopment of countries in Africa and South America in order to support vast systems of plunder. The EU is a problem, not a solution, one that needs Socialism and greater industrialization so as to not be reliant on plunder.
I don’t think you know what authoritarianism is, also the idea of paying a scientist of any kind the same as a cashier at a gas station is ridiculous.
I don’t think you know what authoritarianism is
I think we do know what you think it is: “horseshoe theory”; Arendtian “totalitarianism.” https://lemmy.ml/comment/17774014
the idea of paying a scientist of any kind the same as a cashier at a gas station is ridiculous.
This isn’t even a straw man; it’s an allusion to an unstated straw man. No one is suggesting that everyone should be paid the same, and AFAIK no socialist state has ever done it.
I think that’s a poor counter to my argument, I do know what authoritarianism is. All states are authoritarian, all are instruments by which the ruling class oppresses the other classes. In the US and EU, those are the Bourgeoisie, specifically the Monopolist Imperialist bourgeoisie. In Russia, the ruling class are the Nationalist bourgeoisie, in the PRC the ruling class is the Proletariat, as it was in the USSR as well. Each ruling class uses the power of the state, the power of authority, to cement itself, and displays greater use of force the more that status is called into question.
The way to move beyond authoritarianism is to move beyond class society. The way to move beyond class society is through Socialism, by which all property can be sublimated into common ownership and direction, to fulfill use rather than need. This is the path to Communism. Countries like the PRC that are already Socialist exert their authority to enforce the interests of the Proletariat, and thus their use of authority is more progressive than the US and EU, who use their authority as Imperialists to keep the system by which the West plunders and brutalizes the world for profit to keep going.
Russia and Iran play the role of self-interested nationalists working against the Imperialists, just as the small business owners, ie petite bourgeoisie, can side with the Proletariat out of their own self-interest in revolution. They are certainly not world leaders of Socialism by any stretch of the imagination, but work with Socialist countries as they have no other option than surrender to Western Imperialism and be decimated like Russia was following the dissolution of the USSR before the Nationalists kicked out the West.
Your last point about equal pay for a scientist and a cashier is a non-sequitor, Marxists are not equalitarians.
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Incredible comeback, Marxism has been destroyed.
23·2 days agoThe ruling class is not my enemy. The bourgeoisie is. Under socialism, the proletariat would be the ruling class, and they are not my enemy.
I mean the ruling class of Russia, China, and Iran, can also be my enemy.
No need to be choosy when you can instead have solidarity with the mistreated and exploited around the world :)
Not on lemmy.ml !
Workers of the world, unite!
The ruling class of the PRC is the Proletariat, so you have more in common with the Proletariat in the PRC than you do with the ruling class of, say, the US.
As for Russia and Iran, it’s important to not just get swept up in the common enemy of the Western bourgeoisie. The current era, where the US is the current Hegemon but whose Imperialism is waning and decaying, means the US bourgoeisie has a vested interest in creating more subjects to plunder to keep this process going for as long as possible, and countries who exert more control over their own resources and industry are the number 1 targets on the US’s list. Russia and Iran both need eventual Socialist revolutions, but these would be pushed back if they were to fall under the thumb of the US Empire.
This is why it’s critical for Communists to have strong understandings of Imperialism. Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism remains the most important work for understanding the primary contradiction and thus primary obstacle in the way of Socialist movements everywhere, of all stripes, today.
ruling class of the PRC is the Proletariat,
Question: if you check families of the top people, they all seem to be children of former high-level dignitaries. Are they somehow stopping birth of a neoaristocracy ruling class, or is the PRC simply too young (2-3 generations) for that to become noticeable yet?
The NPC has over 3000 members, many of whom do not fit that description. I suppose it would be accurate to say beauracracy could form, but Xi Jinping’s campaign was built up off of strong anti-corruption protections and purging of opportunists from the party.
“As for Russia and Iran, it’s important to not just get swept up in the common enemy of the Western bourgeoisie.”
What are you talking about? You obviously don’t have friends or family from Ukraine or Georgia.
I spent the greater half of my comment elaborating on what I meant by that statement. If you have specific questions, please, ask away, but I already answered.
But it’s all about the US, and you seem to just ignore what Russia (Putin) is doing. Nobody is forcing Putin to murder Ukrainians.
A similar point can me made about Iran that has no problem killing or beating up women that try to get equal (human) rights.
Your entire point about the US, isn’t an excuse to just ignore the current leaders in those countries.
The current era, where the US is the current Hegemon but whose Imperialism is waning and decaying, means the US bourgoeisie has a vested interest in creating more subjects to plunder to keep this process going for as long as possible, and countries who exert more control over their own resources and industry are the number 1 targets on the US’s list. Russia and Iran both need eventual Socialist revolutions, but these would be pushed back if they were to fall under the thumb of the US Empire.
Bolded are the parts where I specifically stated why siding with the US bourgeoisie against Russia and Iran, ie getting them to capitulate to US demands and open up their markets for foreign plunder, is a bad thing for any Marxist. They aren’t paragons of good, but neither are US allies in the area, like Israel, Ukraine, or Saudi Arabia. Socialist revolution is far easier in a country combatting Imperialism than capitulating to it, as experience has shown.
As for Russia and Ukraine, we could push this back onto the Nationalist Banderites who were shelling the Donbass region for a decade before the Russo-Ukrainian War. What we have now is a Nationalist-controlled Ukraine that is being carved out via predatory loans from the US on one side, and Russia on the other.
Russia seeks demilitarization, the US seeks full control of Ukrainian industry and profits, the working class of Ukraine suffers and the compradors profit. Russia seeks to counter NATO’s millitant buildup on their border in order to threaten Russia into opening its markets to foreign plundering, and responded to Luhansk and Donetsk declaring independence from Ukraine.
This isn’t a situation where an evil leader wants to do evil and spread evil for the sake of evil, there are materialist factors at play. The US only cares about damaging Russia and profiting off of Ukraine, and Russia primarily cares about keeping NATO off of its border and protecting the ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk.
How familiar are you with Marxism? This is a Marxist community, so being familiar with Marxist analysis of Imperialism and Economics helps greatly when discussing the Marxist POV of current global events.
This is a Marxist community, so being familiar with Marxist analysis of Imperialism and Economics helps greatly when discussing the Marxist POV of current global events.
TBF this comm seems like it’s more for outreach to vague leftists to propagandize ML to them, not a place for followers of the immortal science to discuss among themselves like lemmygrad or hexbear. People with a vulgar understanding of class war chiming in is to be expected.
Completely fair, that’s the way I use it, that line was more of a springboard to segue the convo in that direction more than anything.
Honestly as a post left anarchist I’ve completely given up on Lemmy as a leftist space. Cowbee is literally just a standard campist who has twisted Marx into sixteen layers of dogma to justify their geopolitical premise.
“Oh you have to be familiar with Marxist analysis…” Ok buddy, but apparently not any of the more contemporary leftist theory which doesn’t buy into that campist slop. “Listen, Marxist” was published in 1968 but we just don’t talk about that. Nor do we entertain any of the century long criticism and revisionism of leftist theory. Marcuse who? Beauvoir? Gesundheit!
We’d rather just huff farts and yell “left unity” until Russia seems like an ally.
Yeah I don’t like the PRC either 😅
The PRC needs to stop comitting atrocities against the Uyghur and other Turkic muslims, and Tibettans, and stop brutalising and denying political self determination to the people of Hong Kong. Oh and stop being a authoritarian surveillance state.
Broadly speaking I don’t like the government of pretty much every country that matters on the world stage. If they matter, they wield enough power that they have used that power to do harm rather than just provide for their people. The only ones that haven’t are maybe some of the tiny or globally insignificant countries’ governments.
I don’t like the US government where I’m from, the UK government, Israel’s government, Iran’s government, most of the governments in the middle east really, excluding the ones I don’t know enough about. I don’t like the PRC, I don’t like the Russian government, I don’t really like the Japanese government, I don’t like the Australian government, I don’t like the Brazilian government, and I don’t like the German government. I don’t know a lot about most governments in Europe though, so I’m not inclined to have a stance on them until I have more reason to not like them. There are probably lots of others also worth not liking that I don’t know about, or forgot.
And I’m postive there are good, kind, earnest, compassionate civil servants working in all of those governments, but as entities I still have issues with them, and think they could better wield their power to help rather than harm the humans they’re supposed to provide for and/or their global neighbors.
Other people have done good jobs of recommending sources on the specific areas you mentioned, so I’ll pivtot to methodology and media literacy. In the western, English-speaking world, the media is dominated by Capitalists and corporate interests, the US State Department, and more. The common narrative threads against foreign countries that do not fully capitulate to the West are controlled. They begin with kernals of truth, omit critical context, and massage the quality and quantity of their events as much as they can while still remaining plausible, often using “anonymous sources” for reference.
The reason the West does this is because the West wants these countries to destabilize, so it can freely plunder their markets and resources, as is standard for the rest of the world. As a Socialist state, the PRC has strong sovereignty over its own markets, and this is a problem for Western Capitalists. That’s what I want you to focus on as you look into these countries.
Sorry this is so fucking long, I have a horrible habit of being incredibly long-winded 🥲
I already agree with pretty much all of that but I don’t really buy into the idea that therefore only sources that agree with China can be correct (which I don’t think you’re necessarily saying, I’m just clarifying the way I look at things)
Someone alluded to the human rights commission article I linked being written by someone it sounds like is very biased against the PRC but his name isn’t on the article anywhere and I have no way to validate that claim, and the HRC has been more than critical of western “free” market capitalist countries too.
In fact, most if not all of the sources I regard highly are extremely critical of the us government, many of our allies, and a variety of western nations.
I don’t think the US isn’t warping the perspective of everyone they can, at home and abroad (along with all the other western countries with the budget to do so), but china and russia are also always carrying out their own disinformation, propaganda, and espionage campaigns. Its the nature of being a big important country in a world where those things are standard.
Understanding that the vast majority of media I have access to is tainted by the filter of “they’re able to make money saying this, and are getting paid for doing so which shapes their motives and can reflect a capitalist bias”, doesn’t really change the fact that I still have to discern what’s propaganda, and propaganda produced by who, and that if it were easy nations wouldn’t spend billions all competing with eachother to shape narratives
Sidebar- just realized tankie is probably an insult, that didn’t occur to me… I should probably apologize to the person I called a tankie and clarify that I just meant to refer to their broad political perspective not insinuate it was less valid…
I don’t take the perspective of pro-PRC communists wholesale because I see that as being just as filtered as most of the narratives I have access to in western media, but going the opposite direction- BUT its still extremely useful to learn how y’all look at things, take a look at the sources y’all feel are relevant, and see how they might change or not change my perspective. Being in even slight different parts of the political spectrum, we kinda live in bubbles with different facts, and its really helpful peek into other people’s bubbles to see other people’s facts and compare them to your own. (Which is why I feel so strongly about trying not to smugly antagonize people I disagree with, you’re just as complex and intelligent a human as I am and I’d like to learn from you, which requires respect.)
But I generally feel that every powerful government in the world has skeletons in the closet. To the best of my knowledge the PRC still hasn’t acknowledged the Tiananmen square massacre and still cracks down on gatherings at the anniversary. If a source isn’t willing to criticize both the west and the “communist block” (sorry, I don’t have a better way to refer to those commonly lumped together countries, if there’s something better I’d be interested to hear it!) Then I’m unlikely to consider them an especially trustworthy source. Is that perfect? Undoubtly no, propaganda is extremely sophisticated these days, but I think it’s a valid starting place. I’m open to disagreement or critique
I would urge you to think about the question of wether or not there is a “correct” way to attain socialism. I am not talking about hypothetically in a synthetic environment, but in the real world where the material gain of the proletariat comes at the expense of the bourgeoisie (and will until we arrive at gay space communism, which is again purely theoretical).
How would you nationalize the resources and means of production of your country so as to distribute it fairly among the people? How would you stop those that resist on some stupid basis of “inalienable rights to private property” (🤢 btw)? If you are thinking about a country other than the US, how would you stop the hegemon from coming after you, either by assassination, invasion or both?
It is easy to critique AES states based on a comparison to fantasy. If you think that you have theory that is not just pure speculation that can never be realized due to it inherently ignoring material reality, please share it.
Note that I am not asking you to prove anything to me so that I can pick it apart at the seams while providing no viable alternative myself (that would be hypocritical with regards to the point I am trying to make). What I am asking is for you to consider this line of questions along with the specific historical material reality that have given way to say the PRC in particular.
how would you stop the hegemon from coming after you, either by assassination, invasion or both?
Or by funding, organizing, and fueling internal unrest/insurrection, which is what the US did in Beijing in 1989, in Hong Kong in ~1999, and in Xinjiang in ~2000–2015.
It’s okay to be long-winded. One thing with HRW, is that it was essentially founded to be an anti-Communist tool of propaganda, not an impartial judge of national character. Criticism of HRW is frequent for its US-bias, even if it also critiques the US or Western countries, it does so with far more kindness than it does for non-Western countries.
As for the PRC and Tian’anmen, they absolutely do acknowlwdge it. They call the event the “June 4th Incident.” They disagree with the debunked UK diplomat cable that alleged 10,000 people killed in total, and a massacre on the square, on the basis of the UK diplomat Alan Donald admiting to have made up the figure from various sources and that he fled the scene well-before. All reputable sources report a relatively consistent story, no deaths (or up to 3ish by some reports) on the square, around 300-500 deaths of PLA soldiers and rioters combined. I recommend checking out the links on this document for more.
This is what I mean by the West taking a kernal of truth, and distorting the quality and quantity of the events. To this day, BBC reports the 10,000 figure as though it’s accurate, while Alan Donald himself has reduced his own estimates to 2000-3000, a number much higher than other estimates but much lower than his initial, and leaked cables back up the CPC’s claim of no deaths on the square. The west calls the denial of the debunked aspects censorship of the entire event, when pretty much everyone in China is familiar.
You’re correct, every government has skeletons in their closet. What’s important is having the media literacy to look at all sides, and not taking Western Sources about their enemies too seriously, as its a massive propaganda regime.
As a side-note, “tankie” is a pejorative for Marxist, but pretty much no Marxist takes it seriously, just like “commie” or “pinko.”
We’re doing this again?
The PRC needs to stop comitting atrocities against the Uyghur and other Turkic muslims
Good thing China wasn’t and isn’t doing that, unless you consider jailing of US-backed radical Salafi terrorists to be an atrocity.
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/18748811
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/14839342
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/18270034
.
and Tibettans
I’m pretty sure virtually all of the Tibetan people are happy to no longer be suffering under theocratic feudalism. Happy to no longer be illiterate serfs and slaves living in depredation under a god-king. I doubt many of them are sad that CIA asset Dalai “suck my tongue” Lama is in exile.[1]
and stop brutalising and denying political self determination to the people of Hong Kong
The UK’s 99 year lease to subjugate the people of Hong Kong ended, a lease which had been forced upon Imperial China at gunpoint during the century of humiliation. Hong Kong reintegration after the lease expired was a foregone conclusion. The last minute, US-backed attempt at color revolution failed. It was the so-called “revolutionaries” who brought the brutality, by the way.
Hey, thank you for the links! I don’t consider all of them impartial enough to weigh very heavily for me personally, but several of them have made me more informed or changed how I see certain global issues!
I’d like to point to some things that still support my original perspective and see if you have thoughts to share, additional sources, reasons to consider those sources with skepticism, etc. I’m not really here to argue, I expect I won’t walk away with the same perspective you have but I’d still love to learn from how you see things and see what you know that would change my view of world politics (if that’s okay with you :) and no pressure for a fast reply or anything, I understand I’m essentially asking a lot of intellectal labor from you)
The nature of global information is such that I can’t really treat any sources as being free from propaganda fueled narratives. I’m of the belief/understanding the west and the “communist block” countries both engage in information warfare and propaganda to shape narratives to their favor, so I just do my best to sift through things, refer to well respected sources with various perspectives, and do my best to integrate it into a world view as best I can 😅
That first article in the first linked comment was very interesting and I appreciate that it was from independent academics
When I double checked the info about the ugyhur Muslims the source I went to to make sure I had the spelling and broad nature of the conflict right was the human rights watch, who has been very critical of the US government, and our close allies in Israel https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-break-their-roots/chinas-crimes-against-humanity-targeting its a loooong document with a ton of claims and sources, it seems fairly robust.
Their page for China also includes articles describing continued preemptive crackdowns on the anniversary of the tianamen square massacre, and other human rights issues. https://www.hrw.org/asia/china-and-tibet do you believe the hrw isn’t a reputable or trustworthy source? They’re very critical of the US, and when I looked for criticisms they’ve faced it was mostly just countries being unhappy that they were criticized. Including groups criticising them for being too harsh on Israel, who the US is extremely close with. If you have additional context or perspective I’d be interested in your thoughts :)
In the article about the dali lama having made an agreement with the CIA to undermine China it says
In 1999, the Dalai Lama suggested that the CIA Tibetan program had been harmful to Tibet because it primarily served American interests, claiming “once the American policy toward China changed, they stopped their help … The Americans had a different agenda from the Tibetans.”
Gyalo Thondup, the Dalai Lama’s elder brother, also expressed frustration with the role of the CIA in Tibetan affairs. In a 2009 interview, he stated “I never asked for CIA military assistance. I asked for political help. I wanted to publicize the Tibet situation, to make a little noise. The Americans promised to help make Tibet an independent country. All those promises were broken.” He continues, claiming that America “didn’t want to help Tibet. It just wanted to make trouble for China. It had no far-sighted policy for Tibet. I wasn’t trained for this (clandestine operations). We didn’t know about power politics.”
Which suggests that Tibet would still like independence and to be considered independent from China. I still learned a lot from it though!
In the article about protesters initiating violence in Hong Kong, after doing a lot of reading to make sure I get the involved parties correct, the article is saying that the violent attackers in white shirts were pro hongkong government triad, or pro China, triad members and they victims were train riders and pro democracy protesters who were returning home from protest regarding the extradition treaty that would allow for the Hong Kong government to extradite people to mainland china (but there were a lot of victims that were just people). That doesn’t really support the narrative you were describing at all. Additional thoughts welcome :)
If you actually read all this I appreciate it! Thank you for the original group of links also. We don’t see the world quite the same way but I think it’s really important to not be hostile towards people with different perspectives from you. If people put together what we know we stand more of a chance of understanding the world as accurately as we can, and I appreciate your perspective even if I walk away with a different perception or understand of the narrative :)
I don’t like the US government where I’m from, the UK government,
You seem to like them enough to fully accept everything they say about China, though
Hey, sorry for yet another reply, it just occurred to me “tankie” probably kind of implicitly suggests I think your perspective is less valid or that I look down on it
If that’s what “tankie” communicates, I’m really sorry about that, it’s probably more apt to say pro-PRC communist, I was just being lazy and didn’t wanna type that out but it honestly didn’t occur to me tankie might be an insult until just a moment ago 🙃
As a side-note, if you want to actually get a view of what Communists are saying on Lemmy, consider making an account on Lemmygrad.ml, Hexbear.net, Lemmy.ml, or an instance that can view them like Mander.xyz.
Its not the highest priority for me, I just value talking with people who’s perspective I don’t share when I get the chance (including to the right of me, when I can manage the cognitive dissonance of forgetting out how their ideology and voting record are harming me) but I have been meaning to potentially migrate to another instance again for various reasons. It was gonna be .ee, but they’re shutting down now 😅
Lemmy.zip (absolutely hate the .zip as a thing that exists, but oh well) is one I wanna investigate and maybe make an account on to check out, but I haven’t made any real decision. I’ll have to go look into mander.xyz, thanks for the suggestion :) Previously I was on .ee after decinding beehaw was a bit more defederated than I wanted, but the mirroring from reddit swamping the “all” feed was the biggest reason I stopped using it
Though, I will say, the folks on exclusively communist instachoicese often EXTREMELY difficult to talk to and find common ground with as an outsider. Even folks from .ml are hard to have good discussion with at times; the more of an echo chamber people spend time sitting it, and the longer they spend there, the harder I find it is to engage with them and have a real conversation about what people think and why without it becoming antagonistic. Which is why I hate echo chambers and I’m thinking I’d like a instance that federates everyone and I can moderate as I need to.
Though I can appreciate being defederated wasn’t necessarily the communist instances choices, and being in your own space where you don’t deal with outsider has it’s merits as well as disadvantages
Thanks for the suggestion and I hope you have a lovely day :)
I mean there literally are no global impartial sources. The us government isn’t my source for deciding how I feel about foreign governments, but if everything is western propaganda surely you can see China participates in that propaganda just as much as every other country. I do my best to cut through the noise and understand the high level patterns and ongoings globally, but there’s not exactly anyone truly impartial. Lots of people buy wholesale into US propaganda that we’re the most free nation in the world and have done no wrong abroad, I don’t really have any more reason to listen to tankies about geopolitics than those people. I have no way to know that you aren’t a victim of literally just another propagandized narrative
There’s not any great way for me to tell truth from propaganda other than listening to well respected journalistic sources with a variety of perspectives, and doing my best to sift through the common elements, but I live in the us and only read English. I do my best 🤷♂️
On just the subject of the uyghur Muslims the human rights watch has been very critical of the PRC, and they regularly criticize the US government and Israel, one of our current close allies https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-break-their-roots/chinas-crimes-against-humanity-targeting
There’s not any great way for me to tell truth from propaganda
It does take a bit of work to develop real media literacy.
The us government isn’t my source for deciding how I feel about foreign governments
No, they just fund your sources that do.
China participates in that propaganda just as much as every other country.
And yet you’re only repeating the anti-China propoganda…
Lots of people buy wholesale into US propaganda
Is there a single piece of anti-China propaganda you don’t believe?
I don’t really have any more reason to listen to tankies about geopolitics than those people.
And yet you somehow do have a reason to listen to those people over leftists, apparently.
well respected journalistic sources with a variety of perspectives
Let me guess: all western, english speaking, liberal, and anti China.
See? You just showed how much all your previous claims about not just accepting all claims against China were hollow by posting an article that uses Adrian fucking Zenz as it’s main source. So you’re willing to trust ultra far right pundits from the “Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation” who are literally paid by western governments and claim to on a mission from God to destroy China, but I’m guessing even the most mild pro-China source is too much for you.
The antagonism is uncalled for, I literally just replied to the other commenter who provided lots of sources in hopes we could discuss further, some of which definitely made me more informed. You don’t have to attack me just because I don’t see the world the same way you do.
You literally could have just said “hey, the person who wrote that article or was the primary source has background you might want to research”
I didn’t see an author listed on that article so instead I looked at what the hrc has been criticized for, and it led me to believe they were fairly willing to criticize both the west and the PRC. What tells you that Adrian Zenz is the source for the paper? His name is never mentioned in it, so it’s not like there’s any good way I could have known that, or check it now that you’ve said so.
I’m happy to discuss and learn why you have a different perception of things than I do, just dont be a dick to me. I’ve read the bulk of two Wikipedia pages (linked by another pro PRC commenter in this thread), read a couple additional articles, and done my best to get some background on like 4 sources/authors now just trying to run down what y’all think and why it’s different from what I do because I’m interested in talking to people I don’t already agree with, I don’t see how acting like I’m a fucking idiot for having any perspective other than yours is productive or helpful to anyone’s cause
If everyone can tell what’s propaganda and what’s not, and which narrative is fake, it wouldn’t be very good propaganda. That was my point. It’s extremely difficult to discern whether your beliefs are propaganda, or mine are. But I’m fucking willing to try, I do my best. Don’t be a dick.
it’s not that they can. they are.
And looking at the comments, the meme failed on deaf ears. That’s why antiimperialism is sorely needed.
typo :
Iraniens are not my ennemies Chines are not my ennemies Russians are not my ennemies the ruling class is my enemy
Those state are run by their ruling class (obviously), so their definitely are our ennemies. As well as every other states, specially imperialist one
To be clear, the ruling class in the PRC is the proletariat, it’s a Socialist country. Further, Russia and Iran’s ruling classes don’t have the same Imperialist foothold holding the entire Global South down that Western Countries do. They will need Socialist revolutions, but as Imperialism is the world’s greatest contradictions, it’s more important to thwart US and Western European hegemony than it is to side with the Empire against bourgeois states that are nationalist in character.
Also even if you believe that the democratically elected leadership of China are a new distinct class, they are empirically not capitalists and empirically not violent on anywhere close to a comparable scale to capitalist leadership. Their politics are that of mutual cooperation and advancement because 1a) they understand imperial extraction is economically inefficient in the long term 1b) have sufficient control over the state and economy to prevent it 2) they need strong allies to protect themselves from imperialist encirclement and imperial powers keep trying to weaken the rest of the world
(I don’t agree that the Chinese elected leadership constitute a new class, I’m just saying for the sake of talking to folks who do)
The PRC is proletariat just as western country are democratic. Yep we should fight the imperialism of our own country first; but we shall not ignore what is oppressing our comrades elsewhere. Workers struggle are bloody crushed by hose states. Pretending elsewhere would not help to build social revolution anywhere
It’s easy to claim something, but another thing entirely to prove it. The fact of the matter is that the PRC successfully had a Socialist revolution and has been as such since 1949, hence why the overwhelming majority of Marxist organizations recognize them as Socialist. The overwhelming majority of the large firms and key industries are publicly owned and planned, and the overwhelming majority of people support their system and believe it is headed in the right direction.
What would be a major setback is revolution in China. Such a color revolution would result in devastation, a crumbling of Socialism, and new lands to plunder for the US Empire. I suggest you familiarize yourself with Marxism and Marxist orgs before making such a claim. If you are familiar, then please offer something beyond a simple claim, so we can have a meaningful discussion.
You are getting downvoted but are absolutely right. I have nothing agains Russians, I do have something against Putin invading Ukraine, Georgia etc. I have nothing against Chinese people, I do have something against Xi and what he is doing against the Uygurs, or what he did to Hong Kong and might do to Taiwan. Just like I don’t have anything against Americans, but I have a lot against Trump.
Russia is also my enemy
Both of these things can be true. At least russia is definitely not an ally or partner to Europe.
Good, Europe is vile
Well I happen to live there, so fuck you too I guess. Not saying our governments aren’t into dirty shit themselves but at least it’s not russia. What comparison even is that
The majority of Communists worldwide recognize Western Europe as a greater evil than Russia, due to how the economic base of each is, and how that relates to the global international context. Western Europe is Imperialist, as in Western Europe consumes more value than it creates by brutally exploiting the Global South, using millitary alliances like NATO to terrorize countries that try to exert sovereignty over their national industry and resources. Russia is Nationalist, but doesn’t have the same Imperialist holdings Western Europe has, due to descending from the Anti-Imperialist USSR. They have no room to exploit the Global South in the same way, they have an inwardly driven economy.
Of course, the United States is the world’s greatest and worst Empire, but that does not mean its allies in Western Europe are blameless for the waning status quo of Western dominance. Further, Russia has strong economic ties to Socialist countries like the PRC and Cuba due to descending from the Soviet Union, and being denied access to the “Imperial Club” of the West. They wanted to join NATO and brutally exploit the Global South for super profits, but were denied.
I think you should use this as an opportunity to become familiar with the Communist perspective on Imperialism. I recommend Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism as a good intro!
What your government is actively supporting in Gaza is an order of magnitude worse than what Russia is doing.
The fact is, there is nothing your government could do that wouldn’t make you shrug and say “well, we’re still better than [villain country]”
Least accurate username
Classic Euro-chauvinist: no actual defense of your position, just lazy personal attacks.
Bro, you are supportive of a warmongering state that actively supports racist and ideological extremists in the west, and consider yourself a leftist. You severely overestimate the legitimacy of your position, why should I waste effort on arguing on a serious level with you? It’s already clear you are lost.
Sorry, I should have said “just lazy personal attacks, and lazy strawmen”
It seems fairly obvious that even you don’t think your position can actually be defended, from the way you’re reduced to trying to put words in my mouth and then haughtily declaring victory like Satre’s anti-semite.
Yes, Europeans governments aren’t like Russia, they are worse it’s not even a comparison
Sure, but Iran may first have to work on their rights for woman as humans and not slaves. Russia could stop their invasion and start peacetalks. Otherwise I don’t see any progressive change happening.
Peace talks? How about their troops fuck off right back home and they release whatever is left of the kidnapped children. Then they can talk about compensation for every crime their troops committed. Their current idea of peace talks is along the lines of “Ukraine should give up most of it’s land, people and resources and we promise not try to take more this week.”
Fairy tales are about teaching kids to fight monsters. Those are the hording dragons.
