• cygon@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    If you were alive (and online) during the 90s, you may remember the banter between Microsoft and General Motors:

    From https://crysa.fzu.cz/ondra/documents/cars_like_windows.html (the only online copy I could find)

    Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, “If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving twenty-five-dollar cars that get 1,000 miles to the gallon.”

    In response to Bill’s comments, General Motors issued a press release stating: If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:

    […]

    1. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would be replaced by a single “general car error” warning light.

    2. New seats would force everyone to have the same size butt.

    3. The airbag system would ask “Are You Sure?” before going off.

    4. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key, and grabbed a hold of the radio antenna.

    30 years later, some of those jokes are finally becoming reality, thanks to Tesla.

    • Another3quenc@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      The Macintosh one is wild

      “6. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, reliable, five times as fast, and twice as easy to drive, but would only run on 5 percent of the roads."

      • kandoh@reddthat.com
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        3 months ago

        Love the scene from the Steve Jobs movie where Woz asks Steve if in order to send an email on the NEXT computer the recipient would also need to have an NEXT computer.

        Of course!

        • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
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          3 months ago

          Basically iMessaging and FaceTime.

          Blows my mind that literally every other brand of phone has settled on a standard for rich messaging and video calls, but Apple had to make a big stink about it and pinky-promise it’ll be out this year.

          And all the Apple users act like everybody else is inferior…while they’re the only ones that are incompatible.

          I bought an iPhone 12 specifically because I was tired of potato-grams between my wife and I. I switched back to Android a couple weeks ago on that pinky-promise.

          Among several other Apple-isms, this one blows my mind then most.

          • areyouevenreal@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            Every other brand is running the same base OS which is Android. There are basically only two platforms for modern smartphones. Yes I know there are a few other options (mobian for example), but they aren’t nearly as popular or functional.

            • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
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              3 months ago

              RCS itself is a protocol, and it’s defined and developed by GSMA, not Google. Googles biggest involvement is setting up their own RCS network but that wasn’t even necessarily required. It was done in response to inconsistent implementations among other carriers, and Google essentially said “if nobody is going to do something about it, we will”.

              Android was not the only OS to adopt it. MS adopted it as well. Though they didn’t get much sticking power, WP10 had white a few decent models running it.

              If Samsung’s default messaging app sent high quality images and photos, but only to Samsung phones, I’d be equally pissed.

              Really the only reason Apple is going to support RCS is because their feared EU regulations coming up to force their hand. They are the only smartphone OEM to not support it.

      • Buddahriffic@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        My experience with Macs was not anything like that. Not super intuitive to figure out, which was made more frustrating by how slow it was, which was made more frustrating by the crashes and having to start all over again.

        • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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          3 months ago

          My experience with Macs has only made me hate them more. I once had to crop a photo on a Mac. Simple, right? Wrong. I opened the photo in whatever the default photo viewer is called (Preview?), but I didn’t see an edit button. So I figured, “Maybe there’s a different photo application I’m supposed to use?” So, I keep trying to find either a different application in that list (Quick Launch? Launchpad? shrug) or an “Open with…” feature like Windows has. Then I complained to my friend next to me, and he showed me how to do it. It was the same exact way I’d done it the first time, except now an edit button appeared.

          There have also been several time’s I’ve needed to upload something (usually a video) from a Mac, and, despite having just saved it, I couldn’t find it because (as far as I could tell) it wasn’t in a folder I could get to on the upload dialog box despite having just saved it using a similar dialog box that could access the folder I saved the item in.

            • tetris11@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              they also described the UI bingo that disorients users every release as software devs enact the latest fashion trend in UX paradigms.

              read: over the last 20 years, UI’s have not converged towards anything, but cycled through design vogues in a manner reminiscent of the fashion industry. Keeping up is exhausting if you’re not paying attention.

            • BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk
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              3 months ago

              Which is fine until you’re selling your interface on the basis it “just works”. You don’t get to advertise your interface is super intuitive and then defend yourself with “oh you’re just not used to it”.

    • nxdefiant@startrek.website
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      3 months ago

      Ironically the errors a Tesla throws are very detailed, and tell you exactly what’s wrong. GM’s error messages are literally an incomprehensible glyph that, when backlit, might mean there’s a problem.

    • Artyom@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      I’ve heard of Tesla owners being unable to get into their car because their wireless-only key fob was to close to a radio dish and was being effectively jammed. The owner had to go under the car and hide the remote from the radar dish to get it to unlock

      • Rob Bos@lemmy.ca
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        3 months ago

        Yikes. Wouldn’t that effect all fob style entries though? A lot of cars do that.

        • Artyom@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          Yes it will kill any brand’s wireless capability, but almost every wireless key fob also has a valet key that can open the door without any wireless connection. Tesla’s mistake was to require you to use the wireless fob.

        • letsgo@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          There’s a small difference between US Letter and A4. If you have A4 in your printer but use “default” settings which would be US Letter, the printer warns you, correctly, in the same way that it should warn you if you’ve got a load of A5 in your printer but want an A4 print.

          Never seen it but I hypothesise that if it were the other way round you’d see PC LOAD A4.

          • meleethecat@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            You’re exactly right. Those words just to you to load letter size paper in the paper cartridge (PC). You could also see PC LOAD LEGAL to load legal size paper or maybe MF LOAD LETTER to load letter size paper in the manual feeder (eg if you need to print something on letterhead).

  • unexposedhazard
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    3 months ago

    Most modern computerized cars are like this sadly, but i think tesla is the worst one them all

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      3 months ago

      I mean if it only did it at home I’d be okay with it, my wife might actually fill the wiper fluid occasionally.

  • Dave@lemmy.nz
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    3 months ago

    So for the record, I had a non-EV car scream bloody murder, barely drivable, ABS triggering randomly, 10 warnings whenever you turned it on, and in the end it was one little burnt out sensor that caused it all.

    I wouldn’t buy a tesla considering all the dodgy stuff that has come out, but non-EVs are just as susceptable to the printer analogy.

    • 🇰 🔵 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 ℹ️@yiffit.net
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      I’ve had my car’s transmission go out and keep putting itself in limp mode (won’t go above 40mph) but I could still actually drive it and open the doors and windows. I just read an article of a woman who got locked into her Tesla because the fucker started updating. That’s a problem literally no other cars have, nor should they.

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        3 months ago

        The woman was an idiot then, because the car has manual levers to open the doors, for cases just like this, or total power failure. It’s required by law in most countries, if not all.

      • Dave@lemmy.nz
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        3 months ago

        That kinda sounds like it might break some kinda law? A fire safety requorement comes to mind, but I’m not sure if it actually applies to cars and not just buildings.

        But yes, you’re right, a car you can’t get out of at all times is a car no one should have.

        • poppy@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          Teslas have backup manual interior door handles but they’re somewhat obscure so not everyone know they are there.

          • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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            I went through flight school in my mid-teens. The layout of aircraft controls are pretty tightly regulated per the FARs, things like the shape, texture and color of the throttle lever is set by federal law so that pilots don’t mistake it for another by look or feel. Because “I’m used to the throttle being black and the mixture being red, but in this plane…” is a terrible reason to slam into a neighborhood.

            I do not think it’s morally right for the fail safe door latch to be different from the normally used door latch. If you are panicked because of an emergency or something, the way you’re used to opening the door should be the way the door opens. You should not have to think “The car is on fire! I gotta get out! And because this is a fancy car that thinks electronic mechanisms are luxurious, the normal door release is not functioning in the event of an electrical failure. Fortunately I remember where the emergency latch is and how to use it.”

            • foofiepie@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              I’ve spent a lot of my career amidst / adjacent to ergonomics experts and I have a feeling you’re 100% correct here. Industrial designers talk a lot about external and internal conventions and I’d wager this is one.

              • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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                3 months ago

                For the last couple decades car manufacturers have been doing everything they can get away with to remove standard typical controls from cars. Put everything in the touch screen. Stalkless column. Let’s win the award for least comprehensible gear shifter this year.

                Like didn’t the guy who played Chekov in JJ Abrams’ Star Trek fanfic die under the wheels of his SUV because the gear shifter was confusing?

                We should be regulating this stuff more strictly.

          • Takumidesh@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            The thought of people getting into a multi ton vehicle capable of going a hundred miles per hour, and not reading the manual is absurd to me, this applies to all cars.

            • Zink@programming.dev
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              3 months ago

              Oof, well then I think I have some bad news for you about people.

              You might want to sit down for this — just not in your car.

        • endhits@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          American cars aren’t exactly wonderful. Each of the big 3 has some specific vehicles/configurations that are reliable, and the rest is terrible.

          The last time Ford made a reliable vehicle was the panther bodies with the 4.6L engine. That engine is damn near invincible. They got very good fuel economy for a V8 too

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    3 months ago

    I don’t get this. I live in the sweet spot for ev ownership: in an area with rich liberals who like outwardly show they care about the environment.

    4 people on my block have Teslas. All of them say they love the car. The guy who lives across the street from me says his only regret is that he didn’t get the AWD version because his sucks in the snow. My boss owns a Tesla, said he would absolutely buy one again. My cousin leased one and said that when he goes to buy a car, it would likely be a Tesla. One of my best friends bought one, and loves it. I rented one (it was 15 dollars more a day, with free charging, so I’m pretty sure it more than made up the cost) and it was mostly a pleasure to drive (not a big fan of the touch screen for everything).

    According to Consumer Reports, Tesla is one of the top brands for owner satisfaction.

    Yet here on lemmy, you would think that owning a Tesla is some kind of miserable experience. I can’t help but believe it’s driven by a dislike of musk, rather than Teslas actually being bad cars.

    • explodicle@sh.itjust.works
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      I think our bias is that a huge portion of us are scientists and engineers, so the things that bother us aren’t the same things that bother everyone else. Most people don’t worry about how their car works, or want to repair it themselves, etc.

      It’s not the car for a Linux user.

      • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        Im not buying this. If it could be demonstrated, I’d be willing to bet that at least 99% of the people who upvoted this have never even changed a spark plug, let alone anything actually complicated or difficult with their car.

        It’s clearly en vogue on lemmy to hate on Tesla, which is almost certainly why this has so many upvotes. I just don’t get why people have to pretend the cars are shit when seemingly it’s really about hating musk.

        • oatscoop@midwest.social
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          I’m part of that 1% and I’ll echo the “Tesla hate” for that very reason. I do the vast majority of maintenance and repair on my vehicles – something I picked up as a broke young man that couldn’t afford to do otherwise.

          I’m not buying something that’s designed to actively prevent me from working on it myself. And the other “99%” of people are absolutely right in being upset since independent repair shops are no longer an option. With no competition they’re at the whim of Tesla when it comes to the cost and time-frame of repair work.

          • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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            Since when are independent shops no longer an option? I just checked their site and it says you can take it to independent shops, but risk warranty.

            I can’t speak to the work that would be done on it, but in a proof is in the pudding type of guy (being an engineer myself, who also used to do most of the work on my car) and the evidence seems to suggest people are happy with their Teslas, not so much with their printers.

            • oatscoop@midwest.social
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              Apparently I’m going off of old information. I just found out there are independent shops that are certified by Tesla to do work now, although it looks (and correct me if I’m wrong) like they’re limited to “routine” maintenance and repairs. It also looks like many of the tools required for repair are locked behind said certification.

              So the situation is better than it was 3+ years ago, but my new stance is there are still serious right-to-repair issues with Tesla that precludes me from buying one.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                3 months ago

                Exactly. Until the battery can be worked on (i.e. the most expensive part) with full documentation and support from Tesla, then I’m not going to consider it. I can replace the engine and any part of the drive train that I want on pretty much any ICE car.

                I understand that there are safety issues here, but without documentation, users are left with reverse engineering, which is even more dangerous. Tesla’s stance so far is, “if there’s damage, replace it,” which is just another way of saying “planned obsolescence” since replacement of a battery pack is ~3/4 of the price of the car.

                Then there’s the BS all car manufacturers are seeming to do these days in tracking users and keeping things locked away from user control (e.g. disabling data collection). It’s getting increasingly difficult to find a reasonably privacy-respecting vehicle, and EVs are the worst offenders here.

                If an EV comes along with:

                • independent shop-serviceable battery packs
                • no data collection (or at least user-verifiable, opt-out data collection)
                • everything aside from battery packs are user serviceable with full documentation

                I’ll probably get it. I’m especially interested in sodium-ion EVs since they should be far less expensive and probably safer. I don’t need anything fancy, I just need to get to work, and I’d really prefer to do that without being tracked by the car manufacturer.

            • mako@lemmy.today
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              3 months ago

              Since when are independent shops no longer an option? I just checked their site and it says you can take it to independent shops, but risk warranty.

              You answered your question.

              the evidence seems to suggest people are happy with their Teslas

              Your “evidence” are people who live on your block and your boss. You might be an engineer but you’re no statistician.

              • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                You answered your question.

                The claim was that it was designed to actively stop you from working on it yourself.

                Your “evidence” are people who live on your block and your boss.

                And, of course, far more importantly, I referenced the owner satisfaction survey CR. You conveniently ignored that. Doesn’t seem to me you’re arguing in good faith.

          • zalgotext@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            Which is perfectly valid, imo. It’s a very similar reason as to why people boycott Nestle products. It’s not necessarily because Nestle products themselves are unsatisfactory, it’s because people take issue with Nestle’s leadership and the executive decisions they make.

            • Panda (he/him)@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              3 months ago

              To be fair, Elon Musk hasn’t done a horrible with Tesla itself, but the actions he takes outside Tesla are abhorrent.

              Nestle itself does abhorrent things, so there’s zero way of separating the products from the company.

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          I’ve changed a spark plug, and assume I’m typical here.

          Dear readers: Please downvote this comment if you have never changed a spark plug.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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              3 months ago

              Yup. Cars don’t have carburators anymore (fuel injection ftw), but if you can work on your lawnmower’s carburetor, you can fix most things on a car. All you need are:

              • OBD2 scanner - crappy ones can be had for $20, but so yourself a favor and get a good one (so you don’t burn out your car’s computer)
              • basic tools - wrenches and screwdrivers - usually only need one or two sizes, not a full set
              • YouTube
              • patience

              If you have those, you can do most ICE and EV maintenance. Parts and documentation are generally available.

              EVs are a different beast. If you’re doing anything beyond the very basics (e.g. tires, headlights, etc), you’ll have no documentation and may void your warranty.

        • drathvedro@lemm.ee
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          Well so does Apple. Well, BSD, really, of which Mac OS is a heavily modified version. But who gives a shit as it’s lacking the most important part of BSD - the license. We’d rather praise Microsoft for open-sourcing stuff instead.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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            You can’t bring up BSD and not finish the pedantic history of macOS. Leave it at “macOS is a UNIX” or get into the weeds.

            macOS userland (i.e. terminal commands) is mostly FreeBSD with some stuff from other BSDs. However, the kernel is a separate project entirely and comes from NEXT (Steve Jobs’ project when he briefly left Apple), which was based on the Mach microkernel. Both FreeBSD and Linux use monolithic kernels, and there’s pretty much no shared heritage there with macOS. Also, macOS uses its own init (launchd), filesystems (HFS+), etc, and doesn’t support the standard stuff in BSD (e.g. FreeBSD init, UFS, ZFS) or the standard stuff in Linux (e.g. sysvinit, systemd, ext4, etc).

            The overlap between macOS and Linux is essentially zero other than some shared UNIX idioms and a few packages like bash. The overlap between macOS and FreeBSD is the userland, which most people don’t interact with unless they’re terminal nerds like me. The overlap is just the macOS borrowed a lot of open source stuff, it’s not really based on FreeBSD at all.

    • Panda (he/him)@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      I think half of it is Elon Musk and the other half are the news stories about the numerous problems they seem to have.

      There are some things that Tesla does wrong, but a lot of these issues are also found in other EVs. It’s a car for somebody who is fine using Apple products.

    • set_secret@lemmy.world
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      I love my Tesla and hate musk with the fire of a billion suns.

      I’m sorry haters, but Teslas are absolutely fantastic cars to own and drive, in my 2 years of owning one. ZERO ISSUES and 100,000km down.

      That said the only reason I’ll not buy one NEXT is because that nazi fuck head is attached to the brand and has poisoned the joy of owning it.

      • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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        I’ve been thinking of buying a EV for a while now. Tesla was obviously the top of the list. Now it’s kind of the bottom of the list.

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      Love my Tesla, wouldn’t go back to an ice car. I’m not particularly a fan of Musk, but I’m definitely a fan of the science and engineering being done across his companies. Comparing a ownership of a printer to owning a Tesla? Kind of a lame joke

    • Nomecks@lemmy.ca
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      3 months ago

      I think the bar is pretty high for EVs. I have a non-Telsa EV, and the driving experience is just so nice. Even if the rest of the car had a bunch of issues I would imagine the way that Teslas drive would be enough to still make people love them. They would probably love a better built EV more.

      • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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        Yeah but people hate the printers because they are a pita and not enjoyable to use. Which is why I switched to brother printers (well, just one, I’ve had it for well over a decade at this point).

        People still seem pretty happy with a Tesla and would buy again, despite there being other options.

        • zalgotext@sh.itjust.works
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          I can recognize that the driving experience of a Tesla is very nice, from the one or two times I’ve test driven one. It’s the other things aside from that experience that I take issue with though. Things like their subscription model to unlock certain features (which other car brands also employ, and turn me away from those brands as well), and, yes, the leadership decisions and actions made by Elon Musk. Both are valid reasons to not buy a particular product in my opinion.

          • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            Any reason is a valid reason to not buy a car; I’m not saying anyone should buy a Tesla. I’m challenging the claim that owning a Tesla is a miserable experience akin to owning some of these printers.

            Owner satisfaction surveys definitely cast a ton of doubt on the general opinion here that owning a Tesla sucks.

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              I think you might be splitting hairs a little bit though, and maybe not properly taking the audience on Lemmy into account. For a largely left-leaning tech-knowledgeable audience, it is miserable owning a car that requires a subscription and collects your data, no matter how well it drives. That probably doesn’t reflect on consumer reports because the audience on Lemmy is small, but the concentration of people that have similar opinions here is relatively high.

              • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                I did a quick search and it looks like you are neither required to have a subscription nor share data with them. Can you point me to what proves this is untrue?

                I guess privacy concerns and subscriptions are not the first thing that jump to my mind when I think about printer sucking…you do? I also question this because none of the top comments above mine reference either of these.

                • zalgotext@sh.itjust.works
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                  3 months ago

                  I did a quick search and it looks like you are neither required to have a subscription nor share data with them.

                  My bad, I wasn’t clear. You are required to pay a subscription to enable certain features of a Tesla, like autopilot/FSD. Those are simply software updates though, they’re not adding new hardware. I don’t like that. If I buy a car, I want all of the features of the car to come with that initial price. Buying a car and then learning I have to spend more money for a particular feature already built into the car is not a satisfactory experience.

                  privacy concerns and subscriptions are not the first thing that jump to my mind when I think about printer sucking…you do?

                  Absolutely. Some of the main gripes I and others on Lemmy have with modern printers are things like:

                  1. vendor lock in with microchipped ink cartridges - if a 3rd party has made better/cheaper ink compliant with my printer, who is HP/Brother/etc to say I can’t use it?
                  2. ink subscription programs - a lot of new printers nowadays aggressively advertise ink subscription programs. But I have enough subscriptions to track, and I don’t go through ink fast enough to warrant having it sent to me monthly or whatever. However, buying ink outside of their subscription costs nearly as much as the original printer itself.
                  3. Internet-connected printers that collect info - I don’t need HP/Brother/etc remotely running diagnostics, checking my ink levels, making sure I’m using the “right” ink, or locking me out of my device if I’m not using it “correctly”. It’s my device, I paid for it, I’ll use it how I see fit.
    • brygphilomena@lemmy.world
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      For the most part, the cars are fine. I really enjoy working on a car and find pleasure in purely mechanical things. I like internal combustion engines.

      Sure, I think Musk is an idiot. But it’s much more that I think Teslas are overrated. My biggest gripe is the arbitrary changing of existing user controls and their ethos of the car should anticipate and do things for me. I don’t want the car to do anything unless I tell it to. Even if it is something as simple as turn signals.

      • I don’t want solenoids for car handles.
      • I don’t want controls on a fucking touchscreen.
      • I don’t want automatic updates.
      • I don’t want subscriptions.
      • I don’t want to be able to change the horn (because a horn is supposed to be a safety item and sound a certain way.)
      • I don’t want stupid games on the touchscreen.

      On top of all that, I think they are pretty ugly too.

      • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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        So, really nothing to do with them being bad cars, just things you preferentially don’t like.

        As I said elsewhere, I don’t give a shit if anyone likes Tesla. I will consider one when I buy a new car, but I highly doubt I’ll end up buying one. My issue is with this pervasive belief here that Teslas are miserable, problem-ridden, locked-down piles of junk, like many modern day printers. It just doesn’t seem to line up with reality.

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          one pretty legitimate criticism i have heard about them is that they are essentially worthless after 10 years because the batteries are knackered and tesla charges A LOT (as in more than the cost of an equivalent car) for replacement batteries.

          Hopefully the 3rd party battery market kicks its self into gear at some point. And hopefully Tesla doesn’t go the apple route of part pairing.

          I’d like to be able to buy a second hand EV when i’m living somewhere where i can charge it (currently in an apartment block with no parking). I’d like to be able to do that without having to risk paying brand prices for a new battery.

          My petrol BMW 3 series on the other hand is 19 years old and still going strong. It’s literally old enough to buy booze

          • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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            Musk claims that they should last between 500k and 800k km, and there is evidence to back up that they do last some time (although, with not much time under the belt, it’s hard to say) which is more than the typical 300k (if you’re lucky) on an ICE car. And the current price of replacing the battery looks like it’s in the 13-20k range. So not way more than the car itself, although maybe you are talking used.

            • PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
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              Yes, an equivalent to a 10 year old car would be a used one.

              And you’ll forgive me for taking Musks “claims” with a pinch of salt

              I also own a 12 year old Lexus rx450h with 150k miles on the clock and the battery is imo starting to show it’s age, and that’s not even a plug in hybrid. I am expecting to have to replace the battery within the next 2 years

    • InternetUser2012@midwest.social
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      I really really wanted one. Now that I can afford one, I won’t get one because Musk is a giant dbag. I’ll wait and find something cool to do an EV conversion on.

    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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      Well yeah, on Lemmy, you’ll get the anti-Musk sentiment. I honestly rarely base purchasing decisions on who the CEO happens to be, and I’ll only avoid a company if I think purchasing from them actively harms either their employees, the environment, or the market as a whole (e.g. they’re a monopoly).

      Here’s why I don’t want a Tesla:

      1. Too expensive for a commuter, not enough range for a family car (we do road trips)
      2. Battery is pretty much unrepairable, and too expensive to just replace
      3. Fire risk - I know it’s relatively low, but my ICE cars don’t have a risk of burning my house down
      4. Can’t turn off tracking, AFAIK - I don’t need my car to do anything but get me from A to B, and none of that requires network access
      5. Quality control issues - I don’t want to keep going to the dealer to get recalls serviced
      6. Crappy in the snow - I live in the Rockies

      The first four are deal breakers, though to be fair the rest of the car industry is trying hard to fail point 4.

      I’m looking forward to sodium-ion EVs, which promise to solve 1&3, and make replacement a lot cheaper. If I can find something that solves the first four, I’ll probably buy it. I’d love to never have to fill up gas again, but I’m not giving up my privacy or ability to repair my own equipment.

  • Shou@lemmy.world
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    How dare you. My brother laser printer is fantastic. I’m not even sure if it uses ink.

    • hedidwot@lemmynsfw.com
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      Nope… Uses toner instead, and is typically much longer lasting than ink, doesn’t clog like ink, cheaper per page than ink.

      Doesn’t do as good at extreme quality photographs as ink but does everything else better than ink.

        • Gadg8eer@sh.itjust.works
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          Indeed. Personally, I’ve gone completely paperless just to avoid printers entirely. I can’t afford a printer at all when most are temporary at best, and Brother is outside of my price range when I never need physical papers in the first place.

          My dad has a Brother printer though, so can confirm they’re somewhat better. Unfortunately, my dad owns a years-old iMac, so he has to not have the most recent available OS version or there won’t be any working drivers; Macs have apparently become infamous for not supporting printers after even the most necessary of system updates, so his computer remains a huge security risk just so his printer works.

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      Oh it does use it, but that’s on me printing several hundred pages two months ago. With normal usage, I’m sure it lasts years.

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        We finally replaced the toner in ours after… 8 years? And it was still printing fine, I just couldn’t bypass the warning anymore (started complaining at 1500, finally replaced at ~2400)

        It got us through:

        • wife’s immigration paperwork
        • my contracting work (lots of contracts)
        • lots of handouts for various community stuff
        • COVID at-home school assignments
        • drawing pages for the kids

        And so on. The new one should last 8k more pages, so I think I’m set pretty much forever.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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            Yup. I’m willing to spend like $80-100 for something that should last the rest of my life. I’ve heard failure rates in after market toner cartridges are high, and I just don’t want to take the risk.

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              Sounds good. I assume I’ll need a replacement this year and I looked at the aftermarket and what people are saying, but I’d prefer the safer option, too.

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    I own a brother printer and never have had an issue. Only had to buy toner once in like ten years. I’ve had a Tesla for 3 years and will probably have to buy tires in another two years when I get to like 45,000 miles.

    So yeah, this tracks I guess?

    • tetris11@lemmy.ml
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      Brother printers haven’t “innovated” in years, and produce fully functional printers without software lockout and freemium “features”. They just make printers, and don’t screw their customers. Brother is the Toyota of printers.

      Tesla is the HP of printers. Deviates greatly from a standard model of a printer, locks down standard printer features, and sells them back to the customer as a service.

      • Cort@lemmy.world
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        Well the new brothers refuse to print when toner is low. Old ones would still print after giving the toner cartridge a shake even if the prints looked shitty.

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      Are those the original tires from the factory?

      They wear out at 30-35k miles, just FYI. EVs weigh more than ICE cars sedans- it’s harder on the tires.

      You can buy aftermarket tires that will last much longer, but you lose the internal foam that dampens road noise. Make sure you match the tire size. EVs require fairly specific heavy-load tires.

      Edit: this was experience with a Model 3 coming from a compact gas sedan as my previous car.

      • Tja@programming.dev
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        A model 3 weighs under 2 tons, less than most SUVs and the same as any internal combustion car of the segment just above (BMW 5, Mercedes E class, etc).

        And most manufacturers have now tires with dampening foam, from high end sporty tires to economical low rolling resistant tires.

        • set_secret@lemmy.world
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          Man this EVs are heavier and use more tyres bullshit comes up ALL the time. Although they might be a little heavier compared to a similar shaped car, it’s often not true as all and the amount of petrol suvs that are significantly heavier i never read they use tyres up as a reason not to get them…

          • faultyproboscus@sh.itjust.works
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            Needing to replace tires sooner on my Model 3 is my lived experience. The factory tires wore out after 35,000 mi, when previously I had been getting new tires every 60,000 mi.

            I have never owned an SUV - I was comparing my tire longevity to my previous sedan, which admittedly was a compact.

            • collapse_already@lemmy.ml
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              I don’t know about Tesla’s, but my Leaf (second one I have owned) has shitty low rolling resistance tires (Ecopias) that are meant to improve range. Low rolling resistance is a tire industry euphemism for poor traction. You also are supposed to keep very inflated for better range performance. I know they are firmer than regular tires engineered for traction. I am guessing they wear out faster as a result (although super sticky traction tires also wear out fast - the P-Zeros on my 7 Series BMW were only rated for 20k miles).

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          Good to know that other manufacturers have added the foam! I miss how quiet the car was on the road. Last changed my tires in 2020, and I didn’t see any all weather tires with dampening foam at the time in the size that I needed.

      • Kage520@lemmy.world
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        Yes they are original tires. I check against bar in the tread periodically and wear is tracking about normal. When I was a kid someone watched me corner like a madman in my honda civic and said to me “wow you must really like buying tires.” It really stuck with me. I had been buying tires frequently for that small car. Now I corner like a grandma and tires last forever.

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          You just connected the dots for me, when I had my accord I was changing my tires every year, I just got the model 3 and was wondering if I’d have to change it sooner than a year compared to my old accord because of it being heavier than the accord.

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    Wait what’s wrong with Tesla products? In my experience they are the most user friendly cars ever built. I never have to think about it — it locks, unlocks, and turns on and off without intervention, it opens and closes my garage door without intervention, it “has a full tank” for less money, and a conditioned cabin every morning (haven’t been to a gas station in 5 years), and I never need to think about oil, belts, or rotors needing attention. Autopilot and FSD significantly reduce my workload in the drivers seat. It’s not perfect, and Elon Musk is a total asshat, but I can’t think of a more revolutionary user experience when you consider what the other automaker’s offer. I can’t stress enough how easy my Tesla makes the act of transportation.

    So why the hate? If for the ties to Elon, I get that and am fully on board, but I feel like most of you have never actually experienced the product?

    Edit: Y’all have failed to convince me that Tesla ownership is equivalent to printer ownership.

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      Doesn’t most of this stuffapply to basically all EVs?

      I have done zero research and I know these dealbreakers:

      • Microtransactions for a car (e.g. autopilot features, features already built-in, but subscription locked)
      • A tablet on the dashboard is a UX nightmare, since it can’t be used blindly (you should focus on the road, please).
      • The futuristic retracting doorhandles are a nightmare for firefighters, since you can’t easily pull people out of crashed Teslas.
      • The whole cybertruck debacle
      • Wasn’t the estimated reach that the car supposedly had explicitly programmed to overestimate?

      Edit: aparrently, the doors are very hard/mostly impossible to open when the power goes out.

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        I definitely do not want to defend Tesla here, but other manufacturers are unfortunately following the same path. It’s ridiculous. BMW is putting most of the extra features into the car on a technical level, but lock them down so you can’t use them unless you pay a fucking monthly subscription for e.g. the seat heaters. What the actual fuck has gotten into manufacturers?

        And the touchscreens? I’m soooo glad that the German equivalent to road and safety announced that the safety rating of cars will go down in the future if there are no haptic controls. I definitely like a sleek appearance, but form follows function for fucks sake.

        /rant

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        My mom has one, and the door handles are so awkward, I really don’t think I’ll ever get used to them. From the inside, it’s easy enough, but it’s also just a button, with no physical unlatching mechanism, and the window has to go down slightly when the door opens, so I would not want to be in there if it lost power.

        She does generally like the thing though.

        • TheRealCharlesEames@lemm.ee
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          Yeah this has happened to me once, so I think I just defrost the car ahead of time now. Don’t recall what I did to get in that one time — probably just scraped some ice, waited a minute for it to defrost, or used a different door? It’s a con, but carries very little weight on my pro/con list. I like the frameless look and would make the same tradeoffs as Tesla did. It’s that insignificant of a problem IME

          • hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            Maybe it’s not a big deal in warmer countries but for northern Europe it seems stupid as fuck

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              Doesn’t Norway own more Tesla’s per capita than any other country? I’m not an expert, but that seems like a Northern European country. Is it a huge problem up there?

              • hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                I recall Norway has been giving very large tax cuts for purchases of EVs in general, funded by their oil money. I guess you’ll just see high concentration of Teslas there it being the most popular EV manufacturer afaik

            • Tja@programming.dev
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              I live in central Europe (Germany) where it freezes every night in winter. Never had an issue, 3+ years of ownership.

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        3 months ago

        Not only EVs.

        My '19 Honda hybrid has all the same features, save being an EV (I live in an apartment and have no place to reliably charge).

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        The high end Tesla’s have the stupid doorhandles. The low end (Y and 3) have manual door handles, they’re just recessed so you have to press the thick part in to present the handle. In practice it’s a non issue unless things that are slightly different stun lock you into inaction.

        The subscription thing is overblown in my opinion.

        Autopilot is the big one where it matters. You get TACC and Auto steer on freeways for free.

        Navigation on autopilot, auto Lane change, auto park, summoning the car and moving the car through the app are all locked behind an Enhanced Autopilot option you can buy.

        FSD unlocks austosteer on city streets and auto stoping/going at stop signs and traffic lights. You can buy it outright or rent it on a month to month basis, and switch between the three modes at will.

        Most non-autopilot features are free but require internet, so you can either pay Tesla ~$9 a month for unlimited car data, or connect your car to wifi (hotspot while driving).

        I think only careoke, live traffic / satellite view on maps, and remotely interfacing with the car (viewing the car cameras through the app, etc) actually require a subscription to premium connectivity, but I’m not 100% sure those don’t work over WiFi.

        oh, there’s also a one-time performance package you can buy if you want to destroy your tires even faster than normal.

        And I won’t defend the goofy Cybertruck (I would drive one of it had launched for at the promised price and range), but how does that existing count as a mark against owning an EV, or even a Tesla?

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          The subscription thing is overblown in my opinion.

          I’d like to own my vehicle, please. Without the manufacturer requiring a backdoor into it, basically making repairs impossible.

          but how does that existing count as a mark against owning an EV, or even a Tesla?

          It doesn’t count as a mark against owning a Tesla. It’s just an example that you can’t assume that potentially good designs by Tesla engineers could be overturned by a billionaire manchild. And I never said anything against EVs in general.

        • Kage520@lemmy.world
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          I got the unlocked speed and I’m still on original tires at 28,000 miles. Still have plenty of wear before they need replacing too.

          The problem is not stomping on the accelerator, since the car has very effective traction control. The problem is cornering. These are very heavy cars, and cornering is rough on tires even on a light car. So have a bit of fun off the line if it’s safe to do so, then corner like a grandma and your tires should last reasonably well.

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        • Yes, cars being built today are copying features from Teslas. New ones still don’t match my UX from a 5 year old car.
        • Micro-transactions are so very stupid, and I’m not saying Tesla doesn’t have any (think I paid a one-time fee to increase the 0-60 performance after Tesla improved the tuning of the same motors for another product), but IMO there is nothing being sold that a reasonable person would expect to have come with the initial purchase. Y’all make it sound like it needs a constant internet connection to check if you’re subscribed to Tesla+ in order to put the car in drive or something.
        • The TESLA tablet is pretty incredible. Other vehicles tablets are not. I will die on this hill (should have happened by now according to the many people who haven’t used it). I can easily travel with zero screen taps or glances due to the amount of things that have been considered and automated. If I do need to change something, I DON’T need to look DOWN near the cup holders or try to decipher a couple stalks. I have zero disdain or concern for the lack of physical buttons. I realize that my generation may have some biases in this regard.
        • The door handles are different and require a few seconds to figure out the first time, sure, but I’m not concerned. Firefighters are experienced and resourceful and the Tesla has a higher safety rating than other vehicles.
        • Cybertruck pedal design flaw is horrible. It’ll be fixed before it causes further injury. The news of this is not enough to make me think I should be looking at other manufacturers yet (have you seen the flaws they produce?).
        • Oh right forgot about that range SW. I do count that against them. Luckily for me and most other Tesla drivers, it didn’t make a difference due our ability to wake up to full range and access the really good routing and supercharging network. But yeah, glad it was caught.
        • There are backup door handles that require no power. They are intuitive (most first timers use it instead of the electronic ones by accident).
        • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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          Please tell me, how a door that doesn’t open if the power goes out is a good idea?

          I know that you can manually open it if you rip out some speaker grills and pull at a hidden lever. But try to remember that in an accident where you accidently drove into a pond, because you didn’t realize the car was in reverse because a touchscreen has no haptic feedback of the state the car is in.

          Turns out I did do a bit of research after all

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              If the power drops out, you can open the rear doors using a mechanical release found behind the speaker grille, which you need to remove from the vehicle’s door, the manual adds.

              I guess that’s where my info was coming from.

              Edit: The fact that this was such a problem that the business insider needed to publish the info speaks for itself, IMHO. Yes, it might be stated in the manual. But you want that shit to be obvious and intuitive in cases of emergency (when you’d need that feature).

              The manual door release can be tricky to find unless you’ve combed through your car’s owner’s manual.

              Yeah, that doesn’t speak to me as “an easy way”.

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                On the model 3 and I think on some other models it’s literally right besides the window controls, it’s impossible to miss it.

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                  The Model 3 owner’s manual states that “only the front doors are equipped with a manual door release.”

                  Too bad if you have any passengers who need to get out quickly.

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            I’m not familiar with any Tesla that requires ripping speaker grills out to open a door. The mechanical door handles that are added for emergency use are perhaps too intuitive due to their prominence over the electronic opener.

    • The Picard Maneuver@lemmy.worldOP
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      It’s honestly really hard to distinguish genuine criticism of the product from rabid Elon-hate on the internet. He’s an ass, and I’ve read what seem like real complaints about Teslas, but the internet tends to lose all rationality when it hates someone, so I try to take anything I read with a grain of salt.

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        Yeah man. People love to bash Elon and rightfully so. I live in Southern California, I drive a Tesla and a lot of my friends do also. I used to travel a lot for work, and would regularly rent nice cars for weeks on end. My Tesla is the car I’ve enjoyed most ever, and it’s not really even close.

        Yeah it has problems. But what car doesn’t? Nothing is perfect. But for me, the features that Teslas have check all the boxes in a really novel and enjoyable way.

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        Yeah I’m doing the best I can for the place I’m in. Would much prefer proper public transport. Fuck cars.

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      That just sounds like a shitload of expensive stuff to go wrong. I want my car to be as minimally computerized as possible. I can set the AC, press the garage door button, and drive myself thanks.

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        3 months ago

        Tesla maintenance costs consist of washer fluid and tires, essentially. That “minimally computerized” car you’re talking about costs significantly more to maintain its ability to transport the same amount. I know because I also have experience with ICE cars and have seen my transportation budget get cut in half over the 5 years I’ve owned this Tesla. Automating routine tasks isn’t required, but it’s really really nice.

        https://electrek.co/2024/04/22/tesla-lowest-maintenance-repair-cost-any-brand/

        • lightnsfw@reddthat.com
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          3 months ago

          If something breaks on my car I can fix it myself. If my Tesla bricks itself because Musky doesn’t invest in QC I’m fucked.

      • nxdefiant@startrek.website
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        3 months ago

        Grandpa can turn cruise control on in any 20 year old car and take a nap, but everyone’s fine with that. Meanwhile Tesla issues a software update to marginally improve their camera and torque based driver monitoring system that can literally tell if you’re not looking at the road, and everyone loses their minds.

        JD power is paid for those ‘reports’ by the auto companies.

        Toyota blatantly disregarded complaints about unintended acceleration but they’re still considered great cars. https://www.autosafety.org/major-recalls-toyota-sudden-acceleration/

        I get the Musk hate, but honestly his attachment to the company is probably the worst part of Tesla.

        • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          And the doors not closing because of poor build quality? Or the doors needing power to unlock (unless you reach under the seat? Or the touchscreen needed to reverse?

          Literally no other cars have these problems. Are you going to try to explain away each one? You’ll be here all day.

    • Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      If the company was owned by a less controversial character people would not hate Teslas as much as they do. Now the logic for the most part is that hate comes first and then they look for justification after.

      Are there issues with Teslas? Yeah, just like with every other car out there.

    • jkrtn@lemmy.ml
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      3 months ago

      Is it still user-friendly if you need to exit in an emergency, like a fire?