• givesomefucks@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    169
    arrow-down
    47
    ·
    1 month ago

    Heaven forbid we try running charismatic candidates like Obama and Bill…

    Like, it’s insane to me that everyone seems to be aware of what wins elections, but the people running the Dem party just keep insisting we need to shut up and vote for someone very few people actually want.

    Like, we can’t do this without the voters, they’re the irreplaceable part.

    We can get different people to run the party, or just coalesce around another.

    • Clent@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      90
      arrow-down
      44
      ·
      1 month ago

      Democrats need to fall in love. Republicans just need to fall in line.

      It’s like you read the meme and went yep, totally their fault. I’m ok with my life gets shittier until I fall in love with a politician. It’s not my fault. I am owed this.

      Is there a term for the political version of an incel?

      • Wrench@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        75
        arrow-down
        25
        ·
        1 month ago

        Yes. It’s called a political agitator.

        This user canvases lemmy threads with anti Biden and anti Dem strawman arguments completely out of context of the thread. Every thread calling out Republicans for bullshit, this user is there never acknowledging how terrible the GOP is, and going straight into anti dem whataboutism.

        Just look at the sheer number of comments this user posts daily. And search the mod logs for deleted comments on this user.

        If they’re not being paid to disenfranchise progressive voters into abstaining from this election, they should look for a sponsor because they’re working for free.

        • Mastengwe@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          24
          arrow-down
          10
          ·
          1 month ago

          100%. You hardly ever see these people in any posts critical of Trump, though the few that you do see, just turn it around on Biden.

          They’re clearly here to disrupt the election.

          Just ask them who they’d put in Biden’s stead that has a remote chance to win the election. I do this all the time. So far- NONE have provided a viable name. Not one. Just backtracking, ad hominem, and doublespeak nonsense.

          • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            9
            arrow-down
            18
            ·
            1 month ago

            Your car has a blown head gasket. It still turns over, but the check engine light is always an on the oil looks like peanut-butter.

            You need to drive 100 miles to get to the airport tomorrow. All the indications you have suggest your car isn’t going to make it. Every piece of reliable data you have says its not going to work. Historically, people have tried to use cars like this to get to the air port, it doesn’t work. You have friends and family members with cars would happily drive you to the airport. You could even just borrow their car. Technically you haven’t decided what car to drive to the airport yet; this actually doesn’t happen till you and your family have a group call tonight. You have alternatives.

            Biden is the car. Literally any generic Democrat is the car of your friends or family. The group call is the convention.

            You are insisting on a strategy that is going to hand Trump the election. When it does, we’ll be pointing to these posts of yours.

            Insisting we run Biden when we haven’t had a convention and literally every Democratic governor polls higher is you insisting we lose this one.

            • Mastengwe@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              18
              arrow-down
              6
              ·
              1 month ago

              Biden is not a car. He’s a presidential candidate. I suggest you take this shit seriously. Because pouting and withholding your vote because you’re not getting what you want is going to get you EVERYTHING you don’t want. And it is going to hurt a LOT of people.

              • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                14
                ·
                1 month ago

                You are the one not taking it seriously. I watched Kerry fail to Bush. I watched Clinton fail to Trump.

                Biden won in 2020 in spite of being Biden. It’s 4 years later and he’s become a worse candidate. This candidate can’t win.

                You need to take this shit seriously instead of insisting on a strategy that guarantees us Trump.

                • Mastengwe@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  13
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 month ago

                  Okay. I think we’re done here man. I have drawn out your bad argument about as good as I think I can. You’ve made it pretty clear that you’re not here in in any capacity of good faith and at this point it’s pretty clear what you’re up to.

                  You managed to not only lie to yourself, but you’ve backed that lie up with false data created by… yourself. That’s some inception-level cognitive dissonance.

                  I’m not going to block you, but I’m done talking to you. So… have the last word.

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  1 month ago

                  I’m just gonna stick to pointing out one particular lie. Not the most obvious or egregious one, but definitely the funniest one.

                  I watched Kerry fail to Bush.

                  HAHAHAHAHA THE FUCK YOU DID

            • crusa187@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 month ago

              This is a fantastic metaphor but I’m afraid it’ll be lost on Blue MAGA.

        • Facebones@reddthat.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          20
          arrow-down
          16
          ·
          1 month ago

          "Everyone I disagree with is an agitator, now shut the fuck up about candidates earning their votes and do as you’re told because ONLY WE can save the country from fascist policies (even though Biden is doing half of it himself!)

          No theres nothing fascist about that attitude or our incessant need to spread misinformation about anyone who thinks Biden sucks, SHUT UP AND FALL IN LINE OR ELSE!"

          • Wrench@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            16
            arrow-down
            7
            ·
            1 month ago

            Yeah ok. Plenty of people were saying the same thing while letting Hitler rise to power too. But what could we possibly learn from history?

            • Aqarius@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              7
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              1 month ago

              You do, of course, realize Hitler was put into power by the conservatives, right? Like, von Pappen was Centre Party, von Hindenburg was a nationalist. They turned to Hitler to avoid losing power to the left.

          • jumjummy@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            edit-2
            1 month ago

            And come November, what are you suggesting? Biden or Trump, because those are your only viable choices.

            • Facebones@reddthat.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              1 month ago

              And they’re our only viable choices, why?

              Because people refuse to vote for anybody else, even though the duopoly parties are effectively the same picture. People obsess over the “World ending” scenario but people are always saying the world is going to end - It’s just a boogeyman to keep people voting duopoly, Democrat’s ONLY platform for decades has been “We aren’t Republican, and Republicans will end the world as you know it.”

              Of course, it’s not just pres. People need to run and vote for non-duopoly candidates all the way down, and once establishment candidates start losing votes they’ll either shift their positions or double down strengthening the non-duopoly candidates. Ain’t nobody moving left so long as you keep rewarding them for sprinting further and further right.

              People have made American politics like training a dog not to bark but you’re giving them a treat everytime they bark and punishing them when they don’t bark then wondering why they bark all the time.

              • jumjummy@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 month ago

                They’re our only viable choices now because the primaries are over, and as much as people here want a super leftist candidate, the reality is that when it’s time to vote, those candidates don’t get enough votes either because these same people don’t actually vote, or this stance isn’t nearly as popular as some may think. I say this all as a Bernie supporter, but vocally against the disinformation agents who push agendas like “both sides” or the previous “Bernie or Bust” mantra.

                Like it or not, the reality is, come the general election it’s either Biden or Trump. Unfortunately, anything other than a Biden vote helps Trump.

                Gnash teeth and complain all you want, but that’s reality. Anyone pushing another agenda is lying or naive.

                • Facebones@reddthat.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  1 month ago

                  The way y’all treat our political system is proof that America is already and has always been fascist. Election after election, decade after decade, the entire Democratic platform is saying “We aren’t them” then doing half of what they wanted to do anyway. People CAN make change if they stop rewarding democrats for sprinting right, and if they can’t - Well, that’s just proof that we AREN’T free, innit?

                  “ONLY WE CAN SAVE THE COUNTRY AND IF YOU DON’T SUPPORT US YOU’RE THE ENEMY” It’s the only argument Democrats have, and like it or not - that’s fascist messaging. Blue fascism is still fascism.

    • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      34
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      1 month ago

      Like. lets talk about what happened.

      it’s reasonable to claim that Gore actually won in 2000. There were sixty one thousand votes that had not been machine-counted because of rampant, clearly partisan, bullshit reasons (among them “hanging chad”,). the Florida Supreme Court ordered a manual count of those ballots with SCOTUS, lead by Scalia, decided to stay because the recount would give Bush a veneer of “illegitimacy”. (gee. wonder why, ya fucking partisan hack.) To be perfectly clear, Gore lost Florida (and the electoral college) by 570 votes. The decision in Bush V. Gore to stay the manual recount basically handed Bush the win. (and, I might add, cast doubt on the legitimacy of bush’s win. it was handed by a court that had no business ordering that stay. But did anyway, because they’re partisan hacks. I’m not angry, honest.)

      Kerry flip-flopped more than a fish out of water, making it hard for independents and centrists to know what his positions actually were. 2 years prior to the election he was, for example, staunchly against gay marriage (and lets be honest, the US was very hostile to gay marriage then. There’s been a massive sea change in that, but it hadn’t happened yet.), but in 2004 signed a letter urging Massachusetts to not outlaw gay marriage. Further, he had the personality of a cold fish. and his running mate was an empty suit with nothing to back it up- who couldn’t even deliver his home State of North Carolina… In short, you had a couple warm bodies running. At the time, Bush was still riding high off 9/11 and the Iraq war and americans were still angry at that; the war wasn’t unpopular yet. Katrina hadn’t happened yet, and Bush was still reasonably popular. So, of fucking course Kerry lost.

      Hillary. Where do we begin? her emails? lets start there.

      Sure, “HeR EmAiLs” and “LoCk HeR uP” is an idiotic rallying cry of MAGA morons everywhere. But, even so, she conducted official Sec of State business on a personal email routinely. It’s such a great rallying cry because it actually has some teeth. it should be scandalous. Even if she was perfectly not-at-all-corrupt, it looks that way. I- and most everyone else- would be legitimately fired for conducting that level of business off a personal email. it should be 100% unacceptable. Not saying she should have been locked up or grilled the way she was. But seriously. It looked bad. and it played in the news.

      Then we got Benghazi. an American ambassador died in a terrorist attack. There’s some things that hindsight says they could have done differently. Republicans latched onto it for political theater, with 10 different investigations and multiple sessions of grilling Clinton, who even then was the presumptive nominee to replace Obama. there was some funding that her office denied, she might not even have been aware that “she” denied it. Hindsight’s a bitch. Anyhow… the republican shenanigans played well in the media.

      Oh. “Super Criminals”. Hillary was very unpopular with minority voters- particularly Black and Latinos. sound clips calling for law-and-order tough-on-crime calling black people “super criminals” didn’t help. there was a lot there, especially with her attitude, but in the end they simply didn’t show up for her. Even if you look at women voters, she under-performed compared to Obamma. (i mean, he looks mighty fine in a tan suit… sorry, sorry. couldn’t resist.) Like, how unpopular do you have to be as a woman, to lose women voters from Obama’s election, when you’re running against Donald- “grab them by the pussy”, “When you’re that rich they let you do it”, “Octopus-Arms” -Trump.

      Lets also talk about how she boosted trump specifically because he was “a clown” or whatever. She gave us trump and then proceededly arrogantly not campaign in key states.

      oh, and there’s more that I just don’t have time to get into… but we got Whitewater, Travelgate, filegate; and shit rolls down hill so lets toss in Paula Jones and Monika Lewinsky scandals. Like there’s a lot of smoke there, and there might be a couple fires, or maybe they’re just really not that corrupt as people and it’s all a big missunderstanding. but again, that plays in the media, and it looks bad. Hilary was the definition of The Establishment™️ running against an anti-establismhent candidate. Of fucking course she’s gonna lose, and she really didn’t help matters by fucking around with not campaigning in key swing states because, “naw, it’s fucking trump”.

      Yup. so aside from Gore, there’s really rather good reasons to have not liked them, and the DNC idiots thought they new better and ran them anyhow… and we got fucked because of it. blaming voters for your own stupid blunders seems to be a DNC favorite. And they’re doing it again.

          • Facebones@reddthat.com
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            8
            ·
            1 month ago

            Hell, she’s STILL out here working to tank democrats in the name of status quo corporatism,

            “What do you say to voters who are upset that those are the two choices? Get over yourself.”

            Democrats need the boogeyman of Trump but they will 1000% take Trump before they give an inch to the left, but they’ll be happy to blame leftists for their loss after 4 years of telling em to eat a dick.

        • lennybird@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 month ago

          I’m no Hillary fan, but I thought the consensus was she lost because of Comey’s bullshit October surprise.

          Her Basket of Deplorables remark is actually the moment she MOST energized her base and grassroots coalition. That was a blip of authenticity I and many others appreciated.

          You know, the people who actually go out and do the door-knocking, phone-banking, fundraising, and pushing back against Uncle Bob and their parents while dragging their friend to the poll out of voter-enthusiasm.

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          1 month ago

          And she was fucking right, like she was about everything, and I suspect that deep down you people know it, and are ashamed, and that’s why you lash out at her.

    • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      36
      arrow-down
      12
      ·
      edit-2
      1 month ago

      It’s not just the president, you need to vote for house of reps and Senate. Obama only had control for 2/8 years. In that time he got the ACA. The remaining 6 years of Obama the GOP were more than happy to block everything. They even shut down the government. If you need charisma to feed your emotions every 4 years, yeesh.

      *Oh I caught on, it’s the thiny veiled Biden bad, hinting he has no charisma and nobody wants to vote for him. “They just have to run someone else nudge nudge. Someone else to run the party wink wink.” Nuts to that, Biden is doing great.

      • lennybird@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        21
        arrow-down
        10
        ·
        1 month ago

        I get people want to fall in line at this point and I have and will vote for Biden, but your head is deep in the sand if you believe Biden’s senility and lack of charisma isn’t hurting him here. The only thing we’re lucky on is that Donald is running again who is for all intents just as senile and far more deranged and far less compassionate.

        But Biden doesn’t hold a candle to Obama.

        • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          14
          arrow-down
          11
          ·
          1 month ago

          There it is again “senility”. Everyone working with him says he’s sharp, but you just gotta get it in. Would I prefer younger? Sure. But he’s not senile JFC. Lack of charisma? The guy presents absolutely fine and does great work. How much does one need to appeal to emotions.

          • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            12
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 month ago

            How much does one need to appeal to emotions.

            you haven’t been paying attention, have you? the entire republican platform is an appeal to their emotions. It’s why it’s successful. appeals to emotion are vastly more successful than appeals to logic or reason, even if they’re wrong. Our brains are literally hardwired to consider emotion before reason, to react on emotion before logic; and triggering the emotional response to manipulate people is an entire field of science in neuropsychology. (and probably one of the best funded areas of research…)

            • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              10
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              edit-2
              1 month ago

              This “we need someone charismatic and then we’ll vote” is the emotion for the supposed logical, informed, left wing voter, who votes based on policy (or lack of policy when they protest no vote).

              • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                7
                arrow-down
                9
                ·
                1 month ago

                So you just like to scream at people while ignoring human nature,

                Okay, good to know. I’m sure it’ll work out fine if you just continue screaming at people…

                • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 month ago

                  Funny because I think it’s the other way around, people screaming “but but but charisma! But but but old!”

                  I thought maybe it was someone else I just told but no it’s you. These are the supposed logical people waiting for the supposed logical platform. But no, they want emotions. Notice that doesn’t add up?

                  And you’re still trying to sneak it in. Biden is just fine charismatically.