Also lemmy.world is not the most stable instance and experiences a lot of downtime. My user experience got a lot better after I moved out of lemmy.world.
It experiences a lot of downtime because the alt right kids who got defederated keep using 4chans ddos tool to bring it down…
It’s not going down from normal user load.
If only people knew how hard the staff was working to improve things and keep it up.
If you’re on that instance they make pinned posts pretty frequently where they explain all that…
Do you want them to call everyone individually and let them know?
Yeah the whole E for effort thing isn’t going to get them far. I just left. I don’t think many people are leaving Lemmy at this point, but courting different instances is a wonderful thing for the strength of the system. I am strongly in the camp that there needs to be a universal tool for account migration though. This is getting tedious.
citation needed
I’ve explicitly been using my beehaw.org account pretty much exclusively because of the constant DDOS attacks on lemmy.world.
Kinda funny how their plan to seemingly kill Lemmy is just helping it stay decentralized by pushing people to other instances.
do you think i’d have a chance at getting in if for my application i just say i want to get away from lemmygrad and hexbear?
It wouldn’t hurt mentioning that as part of your application lol
You can’t really kill a decentralized service without burning down the whole internet. Another way would be to offer a competing services, but that hasn’t killed e-mail yet.
Same here. Lemm.ee has been extremely solid
For the record I never wanted to create an account on lemmy.world, but I ultimately did so because other instances including lemmy.ml were not operational when a mass of users moved on from reddit so I just settled for this one.
The fediverse needs to address this without making it the users problem, not my fault shit don’t work, I’m just here for memes and all the porn 😎
Edit: Lemmy didn’t have to recreate reddits shit formatting either
You joined way after me. You just didn’t look around enough.
Cool, tell me more about my experience, since you seem to be an expert
Sorry if I came off wrong. Maybe it’s because lemmy.world never worked for me but I found many instances in that time.
Have a good day/night
Sucks but if Lemmy.World is gonna be the “face” of Lemmy it’s probably best to keep the shadier sides of the fediverse out. Just to keep the damn lawyer trolls off our back.
Plus it keeps the “uninitiated normies” out of the Piracy instance. At least until they know.
Don’t you all love democracy?
Let’s vote on who is the face of the fediverse.
Sweet logo, ngl
Here’s our actual logo.
My obvious bias aside it is a banger logo.
It comes in lots off different flavors.
:
Those are sick ngl.
linkZ to the NFTZ?
We are socialists… just right click and save them.
I think it was a joke and a really good one.
Huh? What NFTs?
The NFT was a lie.
🥰
1
Don’t you all love democracy?
This sentence implies that you don’t. Why don’t you like democracy?
it implies that it’s not democracy. people just make accounts based on which instance is currently the largest.
@Freeanotherday@hexbear.net was saying that the “face of lemmy” wasn’t voted on, and is surprised, because libs like yourself usually like democracy…
They will never be the face because they’re always down.
You ain’t wrong lol
FWIW this is one of the most frequent communities I see while browsing. I don’t mind it but it’s definitely a bad look if they want lemmy.world to appeal to the everyman.
I’ve noticed a lot more “normie” content in the past few weeks so it definitely seems like the site is attracting more than just techy people now.
Piracy not appealing to the everyman? With the relentless rise in the cost of living and with streaming services increasing costs and cracking down on password sharing, I don’t see many people turning up their nose at piracy these days.
It makes it look like scary hackerman place
I’m okay with that, people generally not inclined to pirate must not visit a pirated sub, by choice or by accident. They may get culture shock and mistake perfectly legal conversations for other things and make a false report.
Those who want to pirate generally knows how to search for communities for piracy. No matter who’s blocking who, they’ll eventually find what they want. The block will act as a filter of some sorts.
If that keeps the normies out then it’s a win.
I put quotes around it to imply I was using the term sarcastically because people who use it in earnest look like elitist douchebags.
Ah, you got me
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Which was always going to happen if Lemmy is to grow. This is fine, decentralisation is what this is made for, so if you want a vanilla experience with only clean sfw content, you can register to instances A B or C, if you fancy some more open internet, then instances X Y or Z might be more for you.
Yeah, I’m fine with the admins using some due diligence. There is some wild s*** out there that no one needs to see terrible and grotesque without warning. The most recent example that I came across was AI generated porn of “jailbait.”
Speaking only for myself but if content like that shows up in my feed I will not continue using Lemmy. So I am appreciative of the admins being proactive and if there’s something I want to find I’ll search for it but the example that I quoted showing up in my feed is absolutely unacceptable to me.
I’m not saying that piracy rises to the level of the quoted example but I don’t manage the server and I’m not willing to manage a server so if there are people out there willing to do it to spare me from nefarious things then power to them. They have to do what’s right and legal.
Why don’t you just block the communities yourself?
You have the ability to do that, but instead you’re demanding that the instance admins take the choice away from you?
This is some nanny state shit. It’s like saying “I don’t want to see morally qiestionable things like drag shows, the government should ban them!” Like just block it and don’t fucking go there if you don’t want to see it. Don’t advocate for taking the choice away from everyone.
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I don’t recall what movie, but it did really bad at the box office and of course they blamed piracy. Until somebody got a hold of the statistics and showed it was one of the least pirated movie releases ever.
was it Morbius
I’m getting just as much mileage out of this as I thought I would when I made it
I do think about them, makes it more fun.
I feel like a billionaire too with access to anything anytime
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Imma get downvoted for this, but for some reason I care even less than I did on Reddit, which I didn’t think was possible…
Anyway, do you honestly think that if piracy actually caused significant profit loss it would affect the billionaires or anyone else in the “investor class”?
Of course not. They’re going to use the ahem “loss” to justify lower wages.
I’m not saying don’t pirate. I’m just saying you don’t get to pretend like you’re just hurting the class that gets to decide where the loss gets shunted. That’s a wildly naïve view of how the world works. You can’t fuck over the billionaires that way. They have too much power to let you.
Or they’ll start injecting ads directly into the media.
Oh wait, they’re already doing this. I forgot about the 45 minute Chevy ad in Barbie.
@erogenouswarzone @s20 oh right, because that wasn’t the case with movies like Transformers (again GM) or Superman and Marlboro being conspicuously visible throughout the movie, or ET when Reese’s pieces paid to be a central part of the movie
Sean, I didn’t mean to offend you or insinuate that I didn’t like Barbie. I have a daughter, and watched it with her and watch the dreamhouse show with her on Netflix all the time. I actually really liked the movie - except the long boring parts where they tried to justify Barbie’s existence in our modern society.
Yes, those movies also have heavy product placements, but it doesn’t somehow excuse all other movies from having them, if that is your point.
My point is that piracy has already impacted our lives. The commercials in movies are the evidence. Further piracy will cause either more ads in media or less content that targets the demographic of people that pirate (ie 18-35 yo men probably).
@erogenouswarzone piracy isn’t the reason why there’s product placement was my point, since it occurred from the start of Public Relations and the practice of earned media and payola. Eliminating piracy wouldn’t affect product placement, and claiming so sounds like those ignoramuses who say if minimum wage is increased that jobs would be automated away - min wage has remained the same for over a decade and jobs are being automated anyway, jobs will be eliminated regardless of min wage laws
@erogenouswarzone similar to product placement, it’s not done by production companies because piracy is occurring, it’s down regardless of the state of piracy to maximize profits. Labor scarcity goes away when wages reflect the demand and profit maximization is disregarded; movies disregarding profit maximization would then not have product placement and it’s not a function of piracy, that’s just the scapegoat for things to take place of the profit maximization. Profit motive≠profit maximization
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Yeah, people who tried to free slaves and let women vote were also committing crimes.
Yeah, because pirates never steal from indie developers and act like assholes if those developers ask not to do it. Those damn parasites asking to be paid for work, gee.
Oh yeah cause there are as many people who pirate 20$ well developed games as there are people who pirate a ≥60$ triple A game that has about the same quality as the shits i take
Okay, lets see some critically aclaimed indie game(undertale), as indie game undoubtly deserving to be bought, and compare it to AAA game series released the same year which deserves to be pirated, according to community. I will use call of duty because its the type of game series i see often said to be the reason to pirate by thiefs: AAA, high price, every year title, shitty studio.
I use very popular local torrent website, as i dont want to search what is the current most used worldwide website for it, and if it tracks number of downloads.
Undertale(2015)-51k downloads.
CoD black ops 3(2015)-54k downloads.
So now answer me, why? Is undertale the same quality shit as call of duty? Or is it even worse considering that it is way less popular, so in corelation of pirated copes divided by copies bought, more people prefered to buy CoD?
Because CoD Black Ops requires internet in order to access most of the content, such as multiplayer. Undertale does not. You got any other, more relevant examples?
Okay, fallout 4-45k.
64k if you count the second torrent on the list separatelly (undertale would be 67k in that case).
The most cockeyed comparison ever…
Still better than your argument, or rather, lack of it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Because most people play cod for the multiplayer wich wouldn’t work on a pirated version.
Undertale is a single player game wich doesn’t lose features because you pirated it.
Another answered the same, so i got an example of fallout 4 with 45k downloads
There are following possiblities one would need to account for:
• you said you’re using a popular local torrent site, depending on where you live interest for fallout and undertale may vary strongly. (Maybe undertale is way more popular than fallout where you live. Or vice versa)
• There is also the possibility of outliers. Be it for that particular site or all sites worldwide.
• Also the sample size is pretty small with 2 games, for an accurate statistic one would need to increase sample size. Better yet use multiple different sample sizes (i.e. one where AAA and indie games are the same popularity, one where AAA is less popular etc.)
• And at last you also could’ve just lied as i have not received proof that these numbers are real.
Now im not saying that the possibilities are the case, just that it may be.
If you want you can do a research accounting for these possibilities (and maybe even more) but i think this would be a bit much for a comment section under a meme.
I would’ve linked website if it wouldnt get me banned. Idk, maybe i can link it in pm, not sure if there are rules against it.
Regarding outliers/variation/sample:are you saying that if i would do the same experiment i wouldnt see the same picture for other critically aclamed titles (idk, celeste, StS, etc.)?
Its just funny that pirates keep saying that they steal games to stick out to greedy companies and to punish them for making bad games. Yet when you point out that they steal good indie games just as much (or even more if you take into account overall sales of those games) all you get is insults.
Whats funny is sometimes its used as a test drive. Baulders gate as a new one I know had a decent amount of pirating, and then many forms are talking about how they loved it and then bought a copy.
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Yep. Im ok with people pirating stuff. There is different shit happening in live. Just steal what you need and move on without making it bigger than it needs to be.
But acting like you isnt leeching of others people work, like you are doing a honourable thing and the only ones against it are greedy corporations is fucking cringe. And then there is also people who make it into their personality lol.
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Now I absolutely need to see this shoplifting community. Please post a link.
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Hot take: .world and others banning/blocking /c/ is better for the fediverse and for piracy. It means less eyes on piracy discussions and incentivizes users to spread out to other instances instead of just all using .world.
i feel like blocking of instances leads to worse echo chambers than subreddits themselves. We gonna have bubbles of federation networks that don’t federate with each other. E.g. lefties, righties, “dark web” illegal shit, kinky shit, and instances that federate with all of them will be blocked by other instances because “use my blacklist or get defederated”. This is gonna lead to hell for users having to create fifty accounts for each bubble. Aint nobody got time for that.
i wish it remained a user’s option to block/unblock content they don’t/do want to see. Each instance could provide their “recommended” default list of enabled instances, and user can go and enable others, like how NSFW toggle works. Maybe group instances into categories with tags or something, like “porn”, “memes”, “tankies”, “nazis”, “warez”, etc
We’re gonna need a Lemmy client that can log into multiple accounts at the same time and display a combined feed of allof those accounts…
Liftoff has been doing that for A while
Thanks for the rec, I had no idea
Now we need one that does that and is available on FDroid.
Liftoff is fantastic for that
The big issue with that. Is where the host instance is located.
If Lennyworld is located somewhere piracy will get them shut down. Federatng a pirate instance is a bad idea.
Hosting is the legal issue. Linking to illegal content that somebody else is hosting is much harder to tackle legally, which is why isohunt was around for so long despite being based in the US. IIRC they shut down not because they lost any lawsuits but because they just couldn’t afford the legal battle.
Exactly, and Lenny world’s pockets are tiny probably
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Most people will not put their time and energy into running an instance which is destined to become a fascist playground with policies like those. You might not like it but in this real world that we are all forced to live in, that is what those policies lead to.
So long as major instances continue to rely on blacklists rather than whitelists, that won’t be a problem for the hundreds of small instances.
You can discuss and promote piracy, but lemmy.world is the biggest instance so hosting links up pirated content will get them shut down. The post is 100% right, just make multiple accounts. You want the illegal stuff distributed. What’s great about Lemmy is you can still have other accounts on those networks.
The primary purpose of the defederation mechanism is not to block content from readers, it’s to prevent brigades. A big problem on Reddit is vote manipulation (not to mention shit stirrers showing up uninvited). On Reddit some mods would just ban everyone who ever posted in a subreddit (like T_D), defederation is essentially the same thing.
It’s for the person paying for the hosting and maintaining the server to decide what they want their server to do
Either way you call it, it’s someone else deciding for me
No it isn’t. You’ve got the whole Fediverse to choose from. That’s the whole fucking point.
If you want every single decision to go your way, run your own instance. Otherwise, quit moaning and find an instance that suits you.
Live in someone’s house, then follow their rules. Otherwise buy your own house or find another house.
That’s what I associate lemmy instances with. Anyways I’m glad that we are free to choose where we maintain our accounts. Unlike reddit wher we cannot even move in order to change the environment, cause it’s all under one management.
I would say to all the people who came here from reddit that none of these instances are ‘your’ house unless you actually created them. This is September and you’re all freshmen.
How very sophomoric of you
Sorry, I couldn’t resist the play on words
Holy fucking shit they’re blocking piracy? What a bunch of losers. Get off the anti-corporate platform built on copyleft principles if you have a problem with piracy.
The losers are commenting on this site as well.
https://hexbear.net/post/317675
Transphobia? That’s cool with them. Treating food workers like shit? Also fine. But watch a copy of a movie? “Horrible theft”. There are people dying over preventable causes due to patents that aren’t even held by the creators. I hate liberals
lmao of course the bootlicker clutches pearls over “trans ideology”.
I created an account today on lemm.ee because I thought defeterating from hexbear sucked, then there were others and today was the last straw, even though I don’t pirate. I didn’t leave reddit for more restrictive platform. Lemmy.world sucks balls.
Eh? It’s understandable. They shouldn’t be forced to deal with any legal issues that come with it.
You can just use another instance that fits your needs, isn’t that the whole point of this decentralized model?
There are no legal issues. You can fucking talk about piracy completely legally. This is a moral position being taken under the excuse of legality by liberals who run their server with a strict political leaning, as demonstrated by their mass banning of socialists and defederation from every left wing space.
Hasn’t reddit already gotten into legal trouble multiple times regarding that sub? Even very recently with film piracy.
And let’s not pretend these communities only ‘discuss’ piracy, as much as they try to keep it within that limit. These corporations wouldn’t care even if they did.
The idea that corporations will come after federated instances that aren’t even creating the posts instead of the source is nonsensical. Until the source is attacked there is literally no reason anyone should be concerned, and if the source is taken down then it won’t be on other instances anymore anyway.
The idea that corporations will come after federated instances that aren’t even creating the posts instead of the source is nonsensical
Is it? Content from federated instances are cached on the instance itself too, no?
I wouldn’t take the risk federating with legally questionable instances, and no one should have to. I’d just use an alt account for that on another instance that is federated, and I do.
if the source is taken down then it won’t be on other instances anymore anyway.
That doesn’t seem to be the case. vlemmy.net has gone down permanently it seems, and I can still access the content on there that were made while it was up from other instances.
Yes, because it’s illegal. If you’re going to be the biggest host you’re a bigger target which means you need to be more careful. What’s good about the fediverse is that you have distributed instances so smaller ones can support things like piracy, and if a small one gets taken down there will be others in its place. The same game of whack a mole is what has allowed torrent tracker sites to exist. If there was one centralized torrent tracker site it would get shut down.
What the post says is exactly right. You’d be an idiot to have one account for your normal usage and piracy usage. In your normal usage you’ll inevitably leak personally identifiable information. Having multiple accounts and multiple instances is the exactly right thing to do to keep piracy alive.
There is nothing illegal about talking about piracy. Get a grip. This is entirely about taking a moral position, because the server is run by liberals with a clear and obvious political position, as demonstrated by their mass banning of socialists.
They’re not just talking about piracy, they’re linking to it. There’s piracy subs on Reddit too and they’re allowed because they are very careful to only talk about it and not link to it, and they’re severely gimped because of that. What’s great about lemmy is that instances that are on with the risk can do so without having to follow anyone else’s rules and users can access it by simply having another account.
Linking to pirate sites is also not illegal. https://1337x.to/ woooooooOOooOOooooo scary! I just broke the lawwwww according to you, get a grip.
I think the media companies have been abusing the DMCA to go after people who link to pirated material. also, I’m starting to suspect world is trying to get funding because they’re trying to “clean” the site up in exactly the way banks/VCs require for loans. it’s a conservative interpretation of the law, especially the recent rounds that purported to go after human trafficking but actually forced major websites to take down anything remotely objectionable.
Ahh they’re trying to sell out. Gross.
Wasn’t the admin of .world one of the ones who went into the NDA’d cocksucking meetups with Meta?
I’m starting to suspect world is trying to get funding because they’re trying to “clean” the site up in exactly the way banks/VCs require for loans.
If that’s true they’re idiots. It’s not even fucking necessary. All the social media VCs deliberately take the most neutral stance possible for the LARGEST possible userbases. Did reddit? Did any other social media site do that? Fuck no they didn’t. They viewed them as user sources and valuable towards growth. It’s literally the opposite of what every VC funded group does.
The cleanup only happens before an IPO. During VC funding companies are always as free as they can possibly be.
yeah, that’s the part that confuses me. whatever it is, it’s another stupid decision in a series of stupid decisions, and hopefully it just kills the instance.
“Wow, Blockbuster sucks because I have to drive to a physical store. I know, let’s open up another brick-and-mortar store that’s exactly like Blockbuster minus the name recognition. That’ll show 'em!”
Reddit never had any issues with r/Piracy. They don’t host anything, they just refer to websites that host stuff. If anything they’d help companies to discover what websites they should take down.
Lemmy.world is turning vanilla. They closed the shrooms community too!
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Can literally have the spores shipped to your door for shockingly cheap so long as you press the “I pwomise not to do what the link you have here says cuz that leads to mushies” box
Welp, I guess that’s it for me, I’m not looking to have my hand held while I access information. I can decide for myself what is and is not acceptable on my feed. Maybe .world is just feeling the crunch and they need to thin out the numbers? It’s a shame either way.
But that’s why federation is great. If you don’t like how one instance handles stuff you can move to any other instance that suits you or even host your own.
You’re absolutely right. It is very nice having options again.
They just don’t have the money to pay the lawyers that you need if you want to host that kind of content without shutting the whole thing down to move it on occasion.
Same this explains why I haven’t seen any shrooms posts. If I wanted to be treated like a child I’d use Reddit
It’s not because they want to nanny you, it’s because they can’t afford the legal fees.
This is going to be a problem for any instance that gets big enough to be noticed by copyright holders or law enforcement. The legal issues will start to pile up.
That’s fair, didn’t consider that at the time
You can find the new community on sh.itjust.works
What’s the shrooms community?
Not sure how to properly post it for everyone, but Shrooms@sh.itjust.works or !Shrooms@sh.itjust.works
The second one, thanks.
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Facilitating Piracy no matter how you put it is wrong and illegal, it is wrong and illegal to support people who do it.
Remember Netizen, when you’re pirating Disney, you’re downloading communism!
“You wouldn’t download a communism”
A would download & 3D print both communism & Disney, then watch them fight
Facilitating Piracy no matter how you put it is wrong and illegal, it is wrong and illegal to support people who do it.
I love how some people assume that everyone agrees on the ethics of piracy
Piracy is bad, mkay?
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Where is this quote from
Old poster but I’m not sure the exact year
no I meant the first quote (thx tho)
For some reason now when I try to view the comment it’s not there, but I can see it in the full comment thread. https://sh.itjust.works/comment/2195177
thanks a lot!
it’s the admin message on lemmy.world
i haven’t read that anywhere
Not sure why nobody in the comments is distinguishing between blocking a community on an instance (removing /c/piracy) and defederating instances (saying your users can’t subscribe to otherinstance.com/c/piracy). They are very different things. We should be very skeptical of defederation.
Removing a community because it violates the rules of your instance is A-OK and every instance should do this. Anybody can run an instance, and anybody can set their own rules, that’s the whole idea of federation.
De-federating other instances because you find their content objectionable is less ok. Lemmy is like e-mail. Everybody registers at gmail or office365 or myfavoriteemail.com. Every email host runs their own servers, but they all talk to each other through an open protocol. You would be pissed to find out that gmail just suddenly decided to stop accepting mail from someothermailprovider.com because a bunch of their users are pirates or tankies. Or blocked your favourite email newsletter from reaching your inbox because it had inflammatory political content.
Allowing your users to receive e-mail, or content from subcommunities on other lemmy instances is not a legal risk like hosting the content yourself is (IANAL etc). Same way Gmail is not liable if somebody on some other e-mail server does something illegal by emailing a gmail user. That’s why you can register at torrentwebsite.com and get a user confirmation email successfully delivered to your inbox. Gmail is federated with all other e-mail services without needing to endorse them or accept legal liability for them.
Lemmy’s strength, value, and future comes from being the largest federated space for link-sharing and other forms of communication.
De-federation is bad.
I think lemmy.world is about to be rudely made aware of how many pirates were on their site.
Might help lighten their load.
If there is one thing a pirate is good at, it’s lightening other’s loads!
Yarr, I’ll be walking the plank myself matey!
yeah, probably make it more stable
They’re not making any money from this anyway
I feel like I missed something, what happened?
The lemmy.world admins blocked a bunch of piracy communities from federating with their instance seemingly out of nowhere: no legal threats, no DMCA notices, no apparent consequences if they don’t.
Uh, weird they didn’t say anything considering they’re relatively open about their moderation. Guess I’ll just grab some popcorn and wait.
Ah yes, my favorite open platform for mass announcements lol
Oh, yeah! That app that totally EVERYBODY uses even though it’s really garbage for information! 🤠
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Where is the piracy? (Asking for a friend.)
Tell your friend to visit !piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com.
thx. forwarded it. happy pirate sounds
Yarr harr fiddle dee dee
Mach, was du willst, denn ein Pirat ist frei, du bist ein Pirat!
My friend wants to know too. He has his pirates license.
That’s called a privateer
dbzer0
Welcome fellow pirate!
Lemmy.world blocked the dbzer0 instance? I guess it’s time to switch then…
They didn’t block the whole instance, just the specific piracy community.
Lol, that’s fine by me, coz I’m here living in dbzer0, arrr!
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Dude, just make multiple accounts. Don’t use one account for everything or you’ll associate personally identifiable information with your piracy account.
The only thing that makes data useful to humanity is the fact that it can be copied - not copying data is unethical.
Salut à toi dear disciple of the Kopimist church
Hmmm… most interesting. Thanks!
Anyone know of a good/current breakdown of the available instances? I landed on LW during the reddit exodus, and so far I’ve been happy here - haven’t felt the itch to relapse back to reddit or the need to find a new home on the fed… even this piracy thing isn’t a deal breaker for me personally since I don’t really engage in that content anyway - but on principle I dislike that it’s been blocked.
Despite all that, I wouldn’t mind poking my head around just to see what’s up, and maybe find my nice little niche, but I don’t know the best way to actually go about navigating the fed.
Not exactly what you asked for but since you seem to care about it, you can use https://fba.ryona.agency/ to see what instances are blocked by what instances and vice versa. Here are the instances LW blocks for example.
Good resource for metrics! I’d really love some more qualitative information though - like by metrics alone, exploding.heads looks pretty decent; but I know just from hanging around here for the past month or so that it’s a hive of neonazis and definitely NOT somewhere I’d want to spend any time. Also info like which instances block / are blocked by the one in question; compatibility with mobile apps or quality of mobile website… shit like that. Would have been awesome to have a guide like that when I joined up as a brand-newbie; but even after having my feet in the water for a bit, I’m kinda lost on where to go from here.
I like kbin for the sorting algorithm and the website UI, but mostly use lw because of jerboa
I’m trying to get Lemmings.world more popular, so feel free to join! It’s well maintained, planned to be running long-term and each defederation is carefully considered. So far only instances that pretty much exist to harass other people have been blocked. Until some lawyer officially contacts me about removing piracy, I don’t plan on doing so.
Defederation because of harassment seems excessive, surely one can just mute a user? Not sure if I’d be comfortable with your defedation policy. It’s one thing to defederate from definitely-illegal-content like CSAM, it’s another thing to defederate because feelings were hurt.
