On stuff outside of lemmygrad, we are receiving a lot of hate, especially by those who just moved from Reddit. Guess they lost their hidden privilege at Reddit as their rhetoric used to be almost universal over there, while genzedong and our other subs get censored and banned. And now, on lemmy, their stuff isn’t universal, as we are more prevalent here. Seems like they really want that hidden privilege back
dear comrades living and dead, please help give me the self control not to try arguing with all the “Lemmy is anti human rights” takes polluting the fediverse rn 🙏
I deeply care about human rights
Must be one of the most nebulous and abstract things you can stand for. What rights? The right to die on the street? The right to monopoly?
The right to be airstriked by NATO peacekeepers, duh
The right to be forced to work to earn back the right to exist
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I have seen it all now. Someone citing the declaration of independence (to expand westwards) written by slaveowners as a holy scripture for human freedom.
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That one is completely useless because usa.
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Still useless
The New Echota Treaty of May 1836?
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outrage liberals are the worst
Just write one response and reuse it, and then don’t engage further unless it’s in good faith.
Yet they still join, are briefly outraged, and then do nothing but complain
I wonder if it’s struck them yet that, as their neoliberal platform fails, other platforms built on fundamentally better ideas and infrastructure are rising up. I wonder if this challenges their preconceived notions at all? Nah, it’s just a bunch of tankies.
It is definitely inducing cognitive dissonance. The developers are simply are communists trying to collectivize social media, and that will live in their heads rent free as long as they stick around.
I saw someone comment, in an almost gleeful manner “I didn’t even know of the word Tankie until today!” like a kid who just learned about the word “Fuck”. 🙄
nothing about the fediverse is inherently exclusively communist in design, and in fact actively goes against the authoritarianism that most examples of communism systems have seemingly inevitably adopted
actually authoritarianism is when my parents forces me to go to bed but china doesnt do that so…
Every server in the fediverse and everywhere else has an admin with unlimited power. How authoritarian!
unlike real life it takes about 3 button presses to leave and go somewhere with better management
unlike real life the management isnt liable to come for your ass even after you leave, cough china cough
You should get checked for brainworms, coughing fits are a symptom.
spicy
you a hanjian or just an ignorant white?
lmao, linking the fucking china police station scare story
you know the US openly has police stations, military bases and prisons (in which they repeatedly torture the prisoners, some of whom have never received a trial of any kind) in other countries against their will right? You know the NYPD openly advertise that they entrap and arrest political dissidents abroad?
are you expecting me to defend clearly unethical practices by a corrupt, authoritarian police state just for the sake of argument because thats what youd do?
or start, i dunno, listing off a bunch of crimes by entirely different countries exclusively to drive the conversation away because thats what youd do?
Euros live off of slavery loot.
can you explain the relevance of this comment to the article in detail
you really think the BBC is a credible source of information? they’ve been sourcing and promoting fake news since it’s foundation, paved the way to more wars than you can think of. please do some research before going to lecture people. you need it.
seemingly inevitably adopted
There’s no need to shy away from it. It’s by design: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
Terror? Much. Excuses? None.
These sorts of platforms are extremely popular with communists for a reason.
presumably relatively little chance of getting entirely removed from the greater federation, and little control by large corporations?
neither of those are exclusively communist things to want
It’s about the opposite of the nauseating neolib standard, though.
Just you wait until US newscorps start advocating to ban the entirety of lemmy and its source code from the USA.
obviously the Chinese are making us all think for ourselves and talk amongst ourselves… there could be no other answer
“China is a censorship dictatorship and we should ban all things that come from there to protect our free speech.” liberals probably
probablyactuallyThe regularity in which I have this exact conversation with my local friends group is exhausting. Admittedly, its only one out of the few, but they are by far the loudest. The same nonsense about “changes to movies” because they want to also be released in China. “Can’t say anything because CHINA has MONEY and the entertainment corporations want their money!!”
Silly you, you forgot that we’re both on the Chinese payroll and we’re Chinese bots simultaneously /s
If Imperial America suffers a crisis even severer than the one in the summer of 2020, that would become a serious possibility.
Most of these so called “libs” were probably just doing what they saw everyone else do. Now, “everyone else” means something different here. If I were them, I’d honestly pick up a book and skip the embarrassment. This is a learning opportunity.
That post on !196@lemmy.blahaj.zone got me fked up because one of the comments there was like “authoritarian communism” is an oxymoron actually 🤓 and another was like “Marxism is not materialism” and it had double digit upvotes.
Like jesus WHAT THE FUXK are you on about. Read Marx and Engels. Read Lenin.
It’s like arguing with toddlers.
You lost them at asking them to read. They do not read.
This is false. They can definitely read… Twitter and reddit and anything else pumped out by the feds that comes in short quips with no real background information or data backing it up.
Read Marx and Engels. Read Lenin.
Marx is a tankie, Engels is a tankie, Lenin is a tankie.
Stalin dunks on these types in Anarchism or Socialism it’s funny af, some say Marxism bad bc it’s materialism, some say it’s bad because it’s not materialism, some say it’s bad because they don’t understand the what type of materialism it is, and don’t even get him started on what Nobati and Sh. G. thinks of Dialectics😪
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you can’t possibly argue that his regime in the USSR was not authoritarian in nature
We don’t. We recognize that the State is a tool of oppression for one class over another, and will always be “authoritarian”.
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You’ve missed the rest of the quote, and indeed the whole point of the complete text you are quoting:
Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
Are you opposed to revolts against monarchies in favour of mass participation polities, like the French Revolution? Unfortunately, history shows that violent revolts are far more successful than peaceful ones, and if the goal is to establish a proletarian-led democracy, then the reactionary forces NEED to be contained by any means necessary.
Any attempts for peacefully enacting change against the ruling classes, have resulted in, either violent oppression from the ruling class and failure, or in successful change then an incremental regression back to the previous conditions.
Pacifist purists (Engels’ anti-authoritarians) are in essence supporters of the status quo.
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- If you’ve seen a self-proclaimed Marxist say that the state is wholly negative, they were not, in fact, a Marxist, but most likely an anarchist.
- Stalin being “one of history’s most brutal dictators” is imperialist drivel; even internal CIA documents stated that the USSR had collective leadership. If you’re talking about the leadership as a whole, there are certainly things to criticize – there were undoubtedly excess imprisonments and executions during wartime, because they were defending humanity against fascism, there were fascist collaborators in various republics (such as Solzhenitsyn, the liberal darling), and the survival of the USSR was at stake, but such excess could be found in many other countries (perhaps most prominently the concentration camps for Japanese people in the US, whose survival was very much not at stake). This propaganda has not been accepted by many countries in the Global South, and I would challenge you to provide some actual evidence (on par with that provided for Nazi Germany, the US, Israel, or other fascist regimes).
Stalin being “one of history’s most brutal dictators” is imperialist drivel; even internal CIA documents stated that the USSR had collective leadership.
Here is one such document for anyone that is curious: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf
I apologise if I have misunderstood the text
Then I suggest you read further through the link I provided, and furthermore educate yourself on what Marxists actually believe, before accusing them.
when one of the crucial figures of your ideology is known as one of history’s most brutal dictators.
I dismiss this claim whether you are referring to Lenin or Stalin. In both cases there’s ample evidence to the contrary. This perception is mostly formed by Western propaganda.
that you say that authority and the State is wholly negative
Anarchists say those sorts of things. Not me. Yes the goal of communism is to EVENTUALLY create a stateless society. But to do that, we first need to a) hold a revolution, b) supress counter-revolution, c) be able to defend the revolution from external enemies, and d) eliminate the bourgeoise as a class.
That last part doesn’t presuppose we eliminate them by killing them necessarily, but we need to curb their immense political and economic power, and to do that we need a state that can actually stop them from creating a counter-revolution. In the exact same vein, I’ll reuse the example of the French revolution, which eliminated the aristocracy as a class, so as to be able to actually found a democratic nation.
And of course the other function of the state is to be able to defend itself from external threats. To do that we need the most “authoritarian” structure of all, i.e. a functional army, with a functional industrial capacity behind it to support it.
We can sit back now and say that the Soviet Union was an “authoritarian” state, but we shouldn’t forget what it went through to survive. In its first 30 years of history, the Soviet Union went through 2 world wars (both devastating for it), 2 revolutions, a civil war (which had the added component of 8 major powers invading at the same time), 2 other wars, and a full economic blockade, and all that while trying to transform itself from a feudal empire into a socialist industrialized democracy. Without a state to protect itself, the Soviet Union would be a footnote in the history books right now, much like the Paris Commune and the Spanish Republic.
I’m not sure what you’re arguing, Engels’ quote supports my argument.
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We are “authoritarian”. We just don’t pretend that we’re not. “Authoritarian” is a meaningless word which is what I said originally, every State that has ever existed is authoritarian: it enacts authority against a specific class. If you agree with Engels’ quote then you agree with this.
I think you might mistook for anarchists, we’re not. We’re in fact what you call us not being.
I don’t understand you being downvoted, this is just some confusion.
It was a civil war where they fought internal belligerents and a ton of invading countries. These are some that are listed on wikipedia:
We all would love if we could enact a revolution by peacefully debating the oppressors and their lackeys in the free marketplace of ideas where they would humbly accept defeat and then everyone stands up and claps. Sadly reality is very different from this.
Everyone click on the All button and start participating in federation.
Worst thing that can happen is the liberals complain.
But if you’re going to be participating on lemmy.ml please don’t make the admins’ job harder, respect the instance rules. They’re already working overtime to handle the influx of new users across the software.
I’ve been browsing lemmygrad near daily for over a year now and had never clicked the All button lol there is a whole lot going on out there, fediverse is pretty cool
If you’re going to throw around “liberals” as some sort of derogatory “us vs them” term then you should probably think twice before clicking all.
There are two sides to any coin. Check yourself before you shit on other people, to make sure you’re not just proving yourself to be at least as bad as them.
liberals is a derogatory term lol
You have the same pfp as @ParentiBot@lemmygrad.ml
The quote
In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
– Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the admins of this instance if you have any questions or concerns.
Yes, thank you, I’ve been posting on lemmy.ml for 4 years now.
Wait until the liberals find out that free and open source decentralized networks like Lemmy align with the general direction of communism.
( At least, I assume it does. I may be very wrong. In which case, I apologize. )
Wait until the liberals find out that free and open source decentralized networks like Lemmy align with the general direction of communism
This already happened and reading it was hilarious.
I don’t think you are wrong. I mean, we’ve somewhat siezed the mean of communication? I guess?
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most knowledgeable tankie
most literate liberal
Scientists: I’m not sure, this needs more tests.
Fascists: thIs iS a siGn of weAknEss me kiL
wait until the shitlibs find out that [info i pulled out of my whole, unwashed ass]
very scientific
Fascists:
jesus christ
Your earlier comment was already deleted so this is your second warning, don’t insult members here. Instance rule 3 is be respectful to your comrades.
can you point me to the insult in question, i cannot see it
I think you know which sentence I’m talking about.
no i genuinely do not
What else do you think you are? Colonialist? Ancap? Neocon?
can you point out one (1) opinion that is in line with any of the 4 ideologies youve mentioned
All of your posts here are
Ah yes. The big communist governments are known for * checks notes * their staunch, unmoving ideals of free speech.
“free speech” without consequence from the state has never existed, and certainly not in capitalist states
You should talk to Edward Snowden and Julian Assange about free speech.
Man… I haven’t been on reddit in quite a while but I don’t remember it being such a shitlibfest. It’s really bad and it pretty well overran lemmy.ml immediately.
Reddit tends to ban commies. It’s like a mini red scare: with the left removed, the right thrives.
It puts me in an odd spot because I care amd believe in Lemmy as a project and I want it to grow, but on the other hand it was kinda nice to not be called a fascist… because im a communist… because that somehow makes me the antithesis of communism
I think there will be an adjustment period, where the Reddit habits will continue to be exhibited. Most redditors have been heavily propagandized for years. Those that stick around and don’t end up in defederated instances will eventually grow more and more deprogrammed.
There’s currently a big push on reddit to keep the protesting communities away from a lemmy migration (downvotes, censored comments, highly upvtoed suggestions towards irrelevant alternatives that are owned by corporations and not part of the Fediverse). I suspect that the massive Western psyops mechanism is afraid to lose one of their most effective echo-chambers.
The only concern I have is that lemmy.ml is already leaning towards tone policing, which makes it somewhat susceptible to be taken over by the shitlibs and fascists.
How are they leaning towards tone policing?
I think we need to some easier ground for people to land and figure out an alternative to propaganda exists. That’s the role of main lemmy.ml, in my opinion, being a landing pad. I think it would be sensible to remind people that the place for talk between tankies is here, not there. And arguably, some general communities here should be more accessible to the “general” public than others.
People that give themselves the work to come check us out need to be happy to see sensible people, and sensible discussions, even though we know and are angry at seeing the same pattern and problem everywhere. There’s a path, a funnel to understanding that. And everyone is in their own personal journey. Our role is to feed them and give them directions.
We didn’t get here because someone though us. We got here because someone fed our curiosity. And there’s different food for different stages of curiosity.
How are they leaning towards tone policing?
The rules lean towards “civility” over the actual content of what is said, which left it vulnerable to “just asking questions” types. It’s being revised after a spat with a TERF who took advantage of those rules.
Well, if they are reviewing it, I hope they are able to learn and adapt.
That’s only what we can hope for, right? Not trivial to get everything right from the first go.
Yeah, I can’t fault them too much for that
Lemmy.ml mods/admins tend to remove heated discussions. That by itself is not necessarily bad, but it has been taken advantage of by various alt-right characters who were seeking to troll or propagandize under the guise of “asking questions in a civil manner”, then reported anyone who responded to them in an even slightly offensive manner. That will certainly be happening again with the massive migration from reddit.
As for the rest of it. I completely agree, and that was my original point: Be patient and engage the new arrivals. At the very least, it’ll help them grow out of the behaviours reddit has taught them.
The really good news is that all the communities on lemmy.ml have been created long before radlibs showed up, and are administered by sane people.
They were in used that every time that they denounced our political-conscious content, reddit ultra-politicized mods acted in instants censoring and banning, but here there is not systematic persecution of ideas, at least in most of fediverse, so they have to cry a lot… Maybe in contemporary world liberalism is only a superficial denomination of anti-communism.
I had to remake an account on ml because I don’t want to see nazi places and nazi comments. Nazi federations unfederating ml is free filter for me. c:
It’s odd because some communities in lemmy.ml and in other instances that don’t block lemmygrad can’t be found from a lemmygrad account.
I just made a lemmy.world account to be able to browse as largely as possible, possibly engage in some agitational posting where we are outright filtered out, and keeping this one for mostly lemmygrad posting and eventually hexbear posting.
Edit: some posts I can’t even see from my lemmy.world account, like this one: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/715543 in worldnews@lemmy.ml despite the fact I can see content from lemmygrad when I subscribe to its communities…
Something is fucky or buggy ig, I saw someone hinting at low server capacity? IDK
I had troubles seeing stuff from ml on world all the time. I could sub to communities but I’d virtually never see the posts on my feed unless I went in directly.
See I can post here, altho it seems from this account I cant see my new pfp and handle on my lemmygrad account (it used to be zaratustash, I changed it today comrade boina to coincide with my twitter @) lol
See:
Lemmy.ml banned my account there lol. Why are they so concerned with a little bullying of liberals?
Lemmy is tone policed… apparently except when someone is calling us “red fash”, that’s not bannable.
You gotta get the normies on the network for the network effect to take off!
i hate to say it, but i don’t want the network effect taking off. in fact, that’s a sign it’s time to leave. is it possible to ever just have a smallish community where real discussion and ideas can flourish without the rest of the US dragging everything down to the lowest common denominator?
You can always just only stay here, the admins are great about banning the wandering reddit libs pretty quickly
seems like a lot of work for no gain
I guess you have to ask yourself, are we spreading ideas and looking to chip away at the predominant hegemony, or do we want to self isolate?
One of the nice things about lemmy.ml is that it starts from a far left perspective and as a result of reddits own unmaking, places normies in a position of no longer being the predominant opinion in the room.
This has two outcomes from what I can guess:
- Normies show up in droves, and their perspectives shift as a result of having to defend their point of view for once.
- Normies show up, but leave because they can’t handle not being able to call forth the shibaliths they’re so accustom to, and having their points of view challenged on equal grounds.
Or normies show up and take over?
You think they’re going to take over lemmygrad, or hexbear? The thing about federation is that you can avoid the outcome you’re talking about by only federating with communities that share our values.
It’s like those guys who say “I’m not joining fediverse because it’s full of weird people”. I mean, good riddance
Isn’t that what the entire federation point is? We can keep this community and keep it insular.
To expect that lemmy as a whole can remotely be the same as lemmygrad is delusional and indicative of being way too online. If anything having lemmy as a whole being more moderate and broader based is a propagandistic tool (not that it even matters that much, online is fake, join a party).
Gramscian hegemonic analysis with regards to the superstructural “war” is silly as fuck and a huge waste of time. We will never have hegemony offline or online under capitalism, the smart response is to adapt, propagate our ideas where it makes sense, and act strategically.
Honestly for me online is mostly a venting space, I see literally zero value over debating libs in that area. Pushing a counter narrative has some use yes, but even then that impact is minimal, and conclusive to at best the worst recruits you can possibly imagine.
edit: it’s also a dogshit habit when it comes to mass work where you have to interact with countless ideologically backwards elements in the organized working class. You will never find purity. Going full guns blazing on libs is a time and place and contextual situation and you need to learn how to not flip the fuck out over backwards and even reactionary ideas in those settings, because doing that will lead you to never be able to stamp them out amongst the masses.
“can i just have my little echochamber please”
Can you just not? One of the reasons I love this place other than for the marxism and such, is because they don’t allow transphobia and I am sick of constantly seeing transphobia everywhere, especially online. I’m trans, and just seeing the casual transphobia everywhere just like, it weighs me down, makes me depressed. I also don’t like being harassed either for being trans unless you think people wanting the right not to be harassed is an “echochamber” to?
youre entirely entitled to excluding them from your safe space, but arguing for the exclusion of any ideas and discussion right of stalin and then acting like youre doing it for the sake of preserving ideas and discussion is silly
in the exact same way that a rightoid site banning those damn libtards to preserve open dialogue would be moronic
People here have gotten and answered good faith questions over the past week. It’s when people roll in accusing us of being genocidal monsters and go for dunking over dialogue that the ban hammer gets used.
no, i distinctly didnt say anything about moderating transphobia___
Let me clarify a little. When you say “can i just have my little echochamber please” belittling, it makes me feel like you want anyone to come here, like reactionaries and for them to say whatever they want to more or less. In which it will just be used as an entry point by reactionaries and the rest to bring all that reactionary stuff over here, bog things down and bring transphobia or racism and such. I’m not exactly sure how to word exactly what I mean right now but I’ll quote Lenin since it feels relevant to what I am trying to poorly say. I think misterslime12 linked comic says it best to.
We are marching in a compact group along a precipitous and difficult path, firmly holding each other by the hand. We are surrounded on all sides by enemies, and we have to advance almost constantly under their fire. We have combined, by a freely adopted decision, for the purpose of fighting the enemy, and not of retreating into the neighbouring marsh, the inhabitants of which, from the very outset, have reproached us with having separated ourselves into an exclusive group and with having chosen the path of struggle instead of the path of conciliation. And now some among us begin to cry out: Let us go into the marsh! And when we begin to shame them, they retort: What backward people you are! Are you not ashamed to deny us the liberty to invite you to take a better road! Oh, yes, gentlemen! You are free not only to invite us, but to go yourselves wherever you will, even into the marsh. In fact, we think that the marsh is your proper place, and we are prepared to render you every assistance to get there. Only let go of our hands, don’t clutch at us and don’t besmirch the grand word freedom, for we too are “free” to go where we please, free to fight not only against the marsh, but also against those who are turning towards the marsh!
From “What Is To Be Done?” by Lenin.
if reactionaries are what you lot are actually talking about im perfectly sympathetic
im less than convinced that thats the case though considering the response this place has had to anything right of china and russia have done no wrong ever
-Yankees
i am in fact european
jank eens wat luider
@TranslatorBot@lemmygrad.ml English
howl louder
This text was translated using DeepL.
-someone who came from reddit (imagine coming from reddit and calling anywhere at all an echochamber im fucking dying lmao)
really makes you wonder about the proclivities of the devs tbh
…anti bullying?
Bullying transphobes is cool and good.
sure is, too bad they didnt say “transphobes”
yup bullying transphobes is solid, seems weird that theyd ban you for-
sending an image of a pig shitting
ah
Sending pigpoopballs to chuds is an old cth/hexbear tradition.
Sending that was a generous response to what they wrote
the people who wanted to leave the most turned out to be fash, shocking!
Unfortunately the more invested and “hardcore” Redditors still tend to be libertarians, although a lot of run-of-the-mill liberals are now included in that group.
So what happens when you get tons of them leaving a platform en masse? They’ll bring their reactionary toxicity with them, claiming “no hatred” or “bigotry-free”, while enabling pro-rulling class rhetoric and blanket-banning/defederating with communists. At least this split on Mastodon isn’t as heavy as it was already filled with a lot of “leftists”, and as there aren’t really any explicitly ML instances available, a lot of communists are intermingled in left-leaning spaces.
Here though? They can push all their ire onto lemmygrad.ml, alienating a pretty big chunk users if they defederate, even worse if they eventually do so with lemmy.ml given the admin crossover.
they eventually do so with lemmy.ml given the admin crossover.
There’s an admin crossover?
Yes, both are run by the devs who are of course communists. These were the two original lemmy instances: lemmy.ml was the “standard” flagship to show what lemmy was capable of, while lemmygrad was the communist space
Which of our admins are on the dev team?
I believe only muad at the moment, I’m not sure if the others have contributed to lemmy development or not
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dessalines is one of the Lemmy core devs, if I understand right
How this anti-tankie masquerading as an anti-communist won’t attract all far-right reactionaries how it happened on reddit
