• Jesus@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    64
    arrow-down
    12
    ·
    1 year ago

    Lots of suspicious comments in this thread. Seems like political astro-turfing has already arrived on Lemmy

    • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      101
      arrow-down
      13
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      You are so far right that you call anything and everything to your left astroturfing. You’ve been in a bubble for so long that it’s a culture shock when you meet actual leftists.

      • Cethin@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        15
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Oh, yes. Actual leftists that somehow support every action of a particular nation. Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information and gives incentives for supporting them publicly. Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to. Yep, totally sounds like actual leftists to me…

        • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          78
          arrow-down
          7
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information

          Yes, actual leftists. I’m going to quote to you some Marx. This is from Chapter 2 of the Communist Manifesto which is basically a 30 page pamphlet, I suggest you read it. I want you to pay particular attention to number 6.

          The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

          Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.

          These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.

          Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

          1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

          2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

          3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

          4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

          5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

          6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

          7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

          8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

          9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

          10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

          As you can see, nothing here is at odds with that.

          Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to.

          What groups? If you’re about to use Adrian Zenz as a source you are a joke. If you’re instead claiming that working to abolish the existence of the bourgeoisie is a bad thing you are a clown.

            • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              47
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I don’t understand how people don’t understand that control of the means of communication in the hands of the proletariat is a MUST to create a DOTP. Who the fuck do they think owns the media? The proles? Fuck no, the bourgeoisie own the media. It’s ALL their media.

              To empower the proletariat in the transitionary socialist state you MUST remove the advantages of the bourgeoisie. This is one of the biggest of them.

              • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                30
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Ah but don’t you see that removing the knife from your throat before fighting The Caped Throatstabber makes you just as bad as him, because of human nature or something?

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Must?

                These measures will, of course, be different in different countries

                Also note this part:

                Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production…

                Notice, “in the beginning.” Is China socialist or not? It is not the begining. The need to control the means of communication, as well as most of the rest of the goals, is to gain power over the bourgeoisie and place the power into the hands of the people. The means of communication must be seized in order to empower the people to communicate without their interference. How is the control that China has over communication providing for that and not the bourgeoisie itself controlling the media to prevent the people from communicating?

                • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  30
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Socialism is the transitionary state between capitalism and communism. It exists in a state of warfare between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie.

                  We are very far away from defeating capitalism and such measures will remain in place until we have defeated it globally. What the fuck are you thinking? “Yes I want to give billionaires the ability to own media in my proletarian state so they can spew garbage propaganda until their counter-revolution succeeds”. Are you out of your mind? What exactly do you gain from this? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. All you are advocating for is empowering the bourgeoisie to crush and re-exploit you.

                  • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    Ah, yes. China is definitely trying to defeat capitalism globally by opening and expanding special economic zones. If anything, China has become more capitalist (because it makes the current bourgeoisie who control the “communist” government more money). Xi Jinping seems to have an estimated value of at least $1 billion USD. He’s not of the working class. He’s from the political class.

                • emizeko [they/them]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  16
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  “Freedom of the press” is another of the principal slogans of “pure democracy”. And here, too, the workers know — and socialists everywhere have admitted it millions of times — that this freedom is a deception while the best printing presses and the biggest stocks of paper are appropriated by the capitalists and while capitalist rule over the press remains, a rule that is manifested throughout the world all the more strikingly, sharply, and cynically, the more democracy and the republican system are developed, as in America for example.

                  The first thing to do to win real equality and genuine democracy for the working people, for the workers and peasants, is to deprive capital of the possibility of hiring writers, buying up publishing houses, and hiring newspapers. And to do that the capitalists and exploiters have to be overthrown and their resistance suppressed.

                  The capitalists have always used the term ‘freedom’ to mean freedom for the rich to get richer and for the workers to starve to death.

                  In capitalist usage, freedom of the press means freedom of the rich to bribe the press, freedom to use their wealth to shape and fabricate so-called public opinion.

                  In this respect, too, the defenders of ‘pure democracy’ prove to be defenders of an utterly foul and venal system that gives the rich control over the mass media. They prove to be deceivers of the people who, with the aid of plausible, fine-sounding, but thoroughly false phrases, divert them from the concrete historical task of liberating the press from capitalist enslavement.

                  —Lenin, Congress of the First Comintern

                  • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Yes, this is exactly what I said. The control needs to be taken away from the capitalist class who control it in most places. The goal after the bourgeoisie are removed from control is for the people to have control though, not some new bourgeoisie.

        • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          56
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to.

          Some people should be removed from society based on the groups they belong to. Nazis, for example. Pedophiles, probably. And definitely people who put pineapple on pizza.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            No, they should be removed from society based on what they want to do. I don’t think the children of nazis should be removed just because they’re a part of that group.

            • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              22
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              Ideological belief is not a trait that is automatically passed on to children. Children of Liberals aren’t automatically liberals. Children of conservatives aren’t automatically conservatives.

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                Yes, which is why they shouldn’t be removed for being a part of a group. They are a part of it as children though.

                  • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    No, but when I was a child I would still consider myself part of their social group. Children don’t have the autonomy for anything else.

        • nohaybanda [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          45
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          1 year ago

          The topic at hand is Western media drumming up support for the US’s next foreign policy disaster. The same way they did for Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam and so, so many others. I would have called this bullshit before I became a communist. You don’t need Marxist theory to see through the bullshit, just object permanence.

        • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          69
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Yes it is. Your failure to understand China’s structure and its goals is a personal failure on your part to seek that information, the information is out there.

          I recommend reading this article, from Vijay Prashad’s organisation the Tricontinental Institute. It will give you a good run down on China’s movement through stages of production and its current goals. If you want to argue Vijay Prashad and his organisation are not leftist you’ll have to take that up with Noam Chomsky as well since they work together on practically everything now.

          If reading is too much for you (I suspect it is or you wouldn’t hold this opinion) then here is a very brief video by Professor Richard Wolff where he cites China as responsible for the globally rising interest in marxism.

          If alternatively your position is that marxism is not leftist, you are a right wing clown and politically illiterate.

          • ReakDuck@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I am not near left or right, a 1 line axis is not enough to put all the political positions into account.

            After reading the first link, socialism is kindof interesting at its core, but in china you have a person that controls eveything, China is a totalitarian state capitalist system. While Socialism would give people freedom, China is doing the opposite. I am not fully invested into this topic but you can’t tell me that stealing Money from bank accounts, allowing companies to do stupid investments that will become waste just to rise some numbers. Generally forbiding the fact that you have issues (disabled) or are different (religion or sexuality) is really just showing how similar this is to Hitlers time.

            In Germany we have the Bundestag and its neither leftist or rightist as you elect the group you like which can be left-ist or right-ist, a group of multiple groups will be build for the few years that have together 50%. So if there is onr far-right group or far-left one, they won’t be able to actually do all the harm except people elect that group 50%.

            Besides having every few years either same or slight different groups that regime, there is also the Grundgesetz which protect the Human rights at its core and is not changable except all 2 buildings and 1 person allow for this. With this, everthing should be possible while having freedom.

            But for China I really don’t know what is the right thing. Its no different than America with capitalism at many levels because both intoxicate the human rights and nature environment. Somethinf like a Bundestag for China doesn’t seem like a great idea if it would be the main thing, because China wants to grow and the Bundestag is too slow for direct and instant changes. But without, you can see corruption at many corners in China.

              • ReakDuck@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                I guess you missed the point that one person has the decision to control everything, of course there will be different groups controlling the details, but this is the person who is able to change. Just saying that I should read is pretty much stupid to say, you also just could say nothing, the message would be equal.

                But i just gonna be you for a moment: If you do not believe this, you need to do a lot more reading.

                Just send me your articles or whatever to justify whatever you mean and don’t be a dick.

                • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I guess you missed the point that one person has the decision to control everything

                  No, he’s saying you’re wrong (and you are). In China there isn’t one person who controls everything. They have millions of elected officials, you don’t have any clue what you’re talking about.

            • Commiejones [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              16
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I am not near left or right

              So you are ignorant. Its ok we have all been there. To live is to learn. I would have an essay very similar to yours a couple years ago. Then I started doing some reading.

              Essentially leftism v rightism boils down to either you think people all all equals and should be treated equally regardless or you believe some people are superior to others and should get to treat others as lesser. Its simple as that.

              • ReakDuck@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                If you say something is simple, then you are actually ignorant, literally. Its like saying: “There are only white and black people, simple as that.”

                Politics is way more complex and diverse, if you are only able to think in one direction then just don reply to me wtf.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

                You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****

                • Commiejones [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  If you say something is simple, then you are actually ignorant,

                  I didn’t say all of politics is simple. I said right vs Left is simple. Its an classification system made for the sole purpose of making a complex thing simple.

                  Its like you are getting hostile at me for saying “using google translate is simple” and saying “Translation is super hard. Learning a new language takes years and even then the subtleties of idioms and the nuance of culture play a significant role in how people speak. bridging the gap between two languages is super complex”

                  You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****

                  I’m sorry if my tone came off as condescending but is Understanding not superior to ignorance? Ignorance is a natural state. We naturally transition from ignorance into understanding on many subjects through out our lives. There is no shame in that. clinging to ignorance however is shameful. Realizing you are ignorant is the first step to understanding. The next step is finding more information. I was just trying to encourage you. No need to be so defensive.

                  • ReakDuck@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    The part that you see me ignorant is the problem. Just because I don’t believe in socialism or capitalism or left vs right doesn’t mean I am ignorant. You somehow had an exam about leftism and rightism which did not include more standpoints because your exam topic was just left vs right. It feels like you are literally stuck in this one knowledge and can’t accept other statements. Its also called Dunning Kruger effect.

      • Stahlreck@feddit.ch
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        You’ve been in a bubble

        Yeah because when all these “lefts” come from seemingly one instance (maybe two) they are totally not “living in a bubble” on their own.

      • randint@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        15
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Expressing how you feel about China is fine. Calling someone else a “paranoid weirdo” is not. That’s just plain rude and disrespectful.

        Edit: I feel like I should make it extra clear that I am not defending myself because several people think that I’m whining for myself. The one called a “paranoid weirdo” was not me.

        • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          60
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          1 year ago

          Insisting that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid agent of spooky foreigners is being a paranoid weirdo. Not to mention, plain rude and disrespectful.

          • randint@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            1 year ago

            What do you mean by “me”? I wasn’t even the one being disrespected. I was merely speaking out for someone else. BTW no one on this thread was ever disrespectful to the 1.3 billion Chinese people. They were disrespectful to their government.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            There’s 1.3 billion people in this thread who are supporting the PRC? There aren’t even 1.3 billion people in China supporting China. How is talking about all the nonsense in this thread being disrespectful to anyone, let alone 1.3 billion people?

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                You are cherry picking.

                For the survey team, there are a number of possible explanations for why Chinese respondents view the central government in Beijing so favorably. According to Saich, a few factors include the proximity of central government from rural citizens, as well as highly positive news proliferated throughout the country.

                This result supports the findings of more recent shorter-term surveys in China, and reinforces long-held patterns of citizens reporting local grievances to Beijing in hopes of central government action. “I think citizens often hear that the central government has introduced a raft of new policies, then get frustrated when they don’t always see the results of such policy proclamations, but they think it must be because of malfeasance or foot-dragging by the local government,” said Saich. 

                Compared to the relatively high satisfaction rates with Beijing, respondents held considerably less favorable views toward local government. At the township level, the lowest level of government surveyed, only 11.3 percent of respondents reported that they were “very satisfied.”

                Again, the U.S. reveals quite a different story. “American trust surveys over time show a clear distinction between low levels of trust towards the federal government, but a strong belief and faith in the power of local government — at the most local level, those positions may be filled by part-time volunteers who are a part of your everyday life,” said Cunningham. This dichotomy is highlighted by a 2017 Gallup poll, where 70 percent of U.S. respondents had a “great” or “fair” amount of trust in local government.

                Saich contends that the lack of trust in local governments in China is due to the fact that they provide the vast majority of services to the Chinese people. This trust deficit was compounded by the 1994 tax reforms, which garnered a substantially larger share of total national tax revenues for the central government. Local governments, despite being faced with declining revenues, were still on the hook for providing the bulk of public services throughout China.

                “Local governments were caught between dropping tax revenue and rising expenditures,” Cunningham said. “Many local governments then had to turn to ad-hoc extra budgetary fees to close the budget gap. I think that has consistently undermined trust at the local level.”

                The national government leaves the local government responsible for providing services, fucks them over, then convinces the people that it’s the local governments fault because they control the media. Of course they approve of the national government, though not the local at all so…

                Also, a large part of the approval that this article states is because most of the people of China “are only a generation removed from an era of chronic food shortages and significant social and economic instability.” Its easy to improve people’s lives if they’re starting from a shitty position. We’ll see how that changes now that they’re playing in the big leagues.

                • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  29
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Its easy to improve people’s lives if they’re starting from a shitty position. We’ll see how that changes now that they’re playing in the big leagues.

                  When’s capitalism planning to do that for everyone in the global south then? If you remove china from the statistics on poverty alleviation poverty has been almost stagnant for the last 50 years. China is responsible for almost all of the vaunted “improvement” in poverty. And they’ve done it without bombing dozens of countries per decade!

                • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  27
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  So you were really going to tell someone they’re cherrypicking and quoting a survey that said only 11% of people were “very satisfied” and just hope no one looked through your wall of text, huh?

                  China just went through a period where in a single generation they eliminated more poverty than any other country in history (save the USSR). Why is it so hard for you to believe that children born subsistence farmers would have a positive view of their government when they’re middle classed and middle aged?

                  • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    Wall of text? Why link an article if you aren’t going to read it? The wall of text was a quote from the article.

                    I literally included your reasoning in my comment. Why did you comment?

                • Sphere [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  24
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  What I see is a lot of cope

                  You said there weren’t 1.3 billion people in China who supported the PRC. Harvard says you were wrong. We’re not talking about the minutiae of Chinese governance here, we’re talking about foreign policy.

                  PS: If you dig into the numbers (page 3 of the report, aka page 6 in the PDF), 70% of people are fairly or very satisfied with their township governments, so don’t be taken in by the Harvard cope–it really is bullshit.

                • randint@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  I advise you to not waste your time arguing with these people. It’s a total waste of time. You can’t win an argument with stubborn people. Don’t be like me who wasted hours arguing with hexbear tankies. Just downvote them then go somewhere else on Lemmy.

            • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              28
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              There’s 1.3 billion people in this thread who are supporting the PRC?

              spongebob-i-fucking-love I fucking love pretending to be stupid when I’m called out for my chauvinism towards one eighth of the human race

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                Chauvinism? Wrong word choice. It’s chauvinism when you go around supporting one group from a position of prejudice, not when you attack some group, which wasn’t happening anyway. Questioning if something is happening organically isn’t the same as saying it’s bad. Skepticism is usually a virtue. Don’t accept everything you see and are told, and don’t accept that it’s happening by accident.

    • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      26
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      The irony of someone whose baseline for opinion making was reddit-logo leaving that place and feeling all of a sudden as if the discussion is being manipulated data-laughing

    • wesley@yall.theatl.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      27
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      Unfortunately they’re probably real people. Most of Lemmy was full of tankies before the reddit migration so any post involving China or Russia brings them out in force.

    • pirate fish
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      25
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      1 year ago

      You mean the ones from hexbear aka lemmygrad-lite?

      • Jesus@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        16
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Possibly, I didn’t look where they’re all from, nor do I know what hexbear is or why it’s significant. Sounds like some kind of intra-Lemmy drama which I’m not too interested in. Just noticed a fair amount, lets say…not totally organic, seemingly agenda pushing comments.

        Edit: Forget my previous comment. I now see the problem with Hexbear.

          • Jesus@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            17
            arrow-down
            8
            ·
            1 year ago

            No it’s when there’s mysteriously dozens of comments just magically showing up that are contrary to the vastly popular opinion on only one contentious issue, that serve the best interests of an entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion through fake grassroots posting. Also that entity has a fragile ego and a long history of online manipulation…oh and also coincidentally they are all coming from the same server

            • duderium [he/him]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              83
              arrow-down
              5
              ·
              1 year ago

              “Vastly popular opinion” = I have never left my white bourgeois gated community in the sixty-five years I have dwelt upon this earth

            • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              84
              arrow-down
              6
              ·
              1 year ago

              entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion

              why would any foreign political entity waste its valuable english proficient resources on astroturfing an online backwater filled with politically illiterate nobodies? peak liberal solipsism

              • Jesus@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                6
                arrow-down
                7
                ·
                1 year ago

                It would appear that way yes…and as mentioned, they have a history of having extremely thin skin and doing exactly that. So do I expect some group to do the exact thing they have always done? Yes. Yes I do.

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  63
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  And by “have a history of it” you mean "I’ve been told it so many times in the western echo chambers I hang out it that I just implicitly believe it.

                  Mate, you’ve already had it explained to you where we’re coming from, but apparently the idea of people who genuinely disagree with you is so fucking foreign to you that your redditor brain literally cannot process it, so you continue to descend into paranoid delusion.

                • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  62
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  I would like to ask you to employ some critical thinking here. Setting aside that the people responding to you have much better English than even a pretty high-level English speaker coming from Mandarin, most of these accounts have months or years of post histories spent almost entirely talking to each other on their previously un-federated instance, including in some cases very harsh arguing, as well as talking about the US on a personal level with intimate detail (and/or whatever other country they say they are from). Do you really believe the most simple answer is that this is all kabuki theater by the CPC to astroturf an obscure collection of websites by wasting a ridiculous amount of resources and the time of highly English-fluent actors? vs just “some people think differently from you”?

                  If you concede this point, then I would like to ask you to just consider for a moment the implications of the fact that you took the much more absurd and flimsy explanation as though it was just the common-sense explanation. What does that say about the way that you conceptualize the world and what people believe?

            • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              73
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              1 year ago

              Again, learn what federation is, and while you’re at it, learn that racist white westerners like you are not actually “the vast popular opinion”. You’re just used to reddit, where disagreement is suppressed, so now that you’re in a space where genuine different opinion is allowed, you’re desperate into paranoia.

              • Jesus@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                7
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                You’re the only one who has brought up race and are speculating what mine must be. I’m not the racist one in this conversation and I’m not the reddit-y one either. I’m not a refugee, I left that shitty site years ago bot.

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  46
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Then you should know how federation works. And yes, believing that only the opinion of white westerners counts makes you racist as hell.

                  • VentraSqwal@links.dartboard.social
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    There are non-white people who don’t like China because of their aggression and obvious leanings towards imperialism. I’ve got friends and family all over Eastern Asia and their countries are constantly getting into territorial spats with China, including in Japan, the Philippines, and even communist Vietnam, not to Taiwan.

                    You guys just love China because they represent an alternative to the western US order. Maybe if they nationalized more industries, taxed their rich more, helped their workers with universal health care, and helped their oppressed neighbors instead of shooting at them and trying to take their territory, they would be more exciting to root for. Basically, if they were more like Cuba.

            • Faresh@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              61
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              I don’t know if the server you are talking about is hexbear, but they recently federated and are one of the oldest lemmy instances. Lemmygrad also has been existing a long time before lemmy became as popular as it is today.

            • Zrc [she/her]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              61
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              lol, so your issue is that people with similar opinions happen to be on the same server? truly the most obvious evidence of agenda pushing!

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                60
                arrow-down
                9
                ·
                1 year ago

                I love how liberals think anybody who’s outside of their echo chamber must be a paid shill. It’s absolutely inconceivable to them that there is a significant amount of people who have contrary opinions.

            • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              45
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              we federated , so now the stupid Imperialsit lies show up in Hexbear , they obviously can not stay , whats you proplem with beeing Corrected ? Do you want to live in Lies Mr. Jesus ? Because you can not be Bothered to do a ideum of research before running wild with the Mob Mr. Jesus ? , you want to forbide our ?

              You sound very Priveldged , trying to impose your ignorance on others , whos your Dad ?

              • Jesus@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                dO yOur OwN rEseArcH

                You sound just like every other idiot that says that. Trumpers, anti-vaxxers and the like. If you have to look around for yOur Own rEsEaRcH that lines up with what you want it to say, it’s because it’s not based in facts. You guys seem to honestly think you sound smart…smh

                • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  5
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  also like every other Iraq war Opponents , Vietnam war opponents, Imperialism Opponents ,Julian Assage loyalist etc… dont forget them !

                  Do you accept “Dissent” at all ? and are you Capable of Processing new information ?

                  this is REALLY Taiwans Air identification Zone . it is NOT the Taiwanese Airspace , this is a Factuall basis. Please Just Process this new Information , the Article is really missleading , the babycrying will stop after a while , trust me . You are really wrong and most people can comprehend that after a while.

        • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          83
          arrow-down
          10
          ·
          1 year ago

          Hexbear is a large, leftist instance, that just recently federated, and most of us are pro-China. We’re not bots and we’re not getting paid, but we’re not shy about our political views. That’s the reason you’re suddenly seeing a bunch more comments defending China.

        • pirate fish
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          I made an account with lemmy.world and I don’t see them anymore.

    • randint@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      9
      ·
      1 year ago

      I know right! How come there are so, so many people defending China here? I thought they were the minority. Ugh. When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        72
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.

        It might be worth keeping in mind that Reddit has, for several years now, biased its moderation policy against the sort of voices who would object to OP, creating a neoliberal echochamber across most of the website.

        • randint@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I’m fine with people with different opinions than my own posting. It’s just the number of such people surprises me.

          ps. I will not go back to reddit

          • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            57
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            You had it explained where they came from, and just ignored it so you could continue with your paranoid conspiracy theory.

            Why not go back to reddit? You’ll like it there, they also have the extreme solipsism to think anyone who disagrees with them is a paid foreigner

          • AOCapitulator [they/them, she/her]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            42
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            It’s a shock to find out that the world view instilled in you as common and sensical is neither.

            It’s tough to face up to that conditioning, but you can do it if you try, and if you don’t take it personally. It’s not your fault you were filled with imperialist lies, but it will be your fault if you don’t reflect

      • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        59
        arrow-down
        9
        ·
        1 year ago

        you left a Astro Turfed , hardcore censored Faschist Imperialistic Place that spends its time telling you US lies about its enemies … things are Diffrent when you leave your hole , because You changed location , you now meet “non Rediitors” and Communist and all else thats forbidden on Reddit… , thereby you are Accuring an new Perspective …

        If its Scary for you then you need to run back where you came from … where the Yellow Peril rules …

      • Cethin@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        The issue is there are a much higher percentage here because brigading wasn’t allowed on reddit so they’d be banned for this type of activity. They come here and can do what they want, which is fine as long as it doesn’t hurt other people doing what they want, which in this case is arguably happening because it clutters the comments with the same thing repeated over and over, and they are organized so it’s all up voted. This doesn’t make them the majority opinion though. It makes them the organized opinion. They are not the majority by any means, but they will make sure to come to China’s defence whenever it’s mentioned, where others won’t bother.

        • nohaybanda [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          42
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          Brigading was very much allowed on Reddit as long as it didn’t push the neoliberal imperialist status quo. Since the biggest leftist subs were banned or quarantined the shitheap of a website has seen an unceasing drumbeat of “China bad” and Cold War 2.0 propaganda, with any dissenting opinion piled on and follows across subs and threads. Often for weeks.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            It was explicitly not allowed. You can argue about enforcement if you want, but it wasn’t allowed.

            • nohaybanda [he/him]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              14
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              jesse-wtf

              Rules only exist to the extent they are enforced. Words aren’t magical. Only the directed use of power gives rules reality, everything else is just so much pablum.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            Brigading is when you organize to send people to a specific post/comment.

            Federating is different groups organizing together to share functionality.

            They are not the same thing and federation has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

        • randint@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Yeah! It’s kind of sketchy how most hexbear.net comments here have >10 upvotes

          edit: it’s also sketchy that over 95% of comments on this post are from hexbear.net, while on the average Lemmy post (not on lemmy.world) there would only be less than 20%

          • infuziSporg [e/em/eir]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            13
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            It may be hard to fathom for someone who’s so used to Reddit, but Hexbear users really do have a deep love for each other. Also we are really really ridiculously online.

            This is kind of analogous to the “CCP is falsifying all of its own data” allegation. You can cling to some sort of dogmatic narrative like Hexbear inflating its stats à la r/the_donald, that’s exceedingly difficult to prove or draw anything conclusive from, or you can take a close look at it and see the reality that lines up with the stats.

    • lukini@beehaw.org
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      15
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      I was curious what you were talking about as there are only 10 comments through Beehaw so I checked out the original. It’s overwhelmingly coming from hexbear.net which we’ve defederated from.

    • Gsus4@feddit.nl
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Yea, it feels like 4chan suddenly saw the light and then turned far-left all at once. They act like what the far right imagines the left to be like, but just looks like really bad anti-leftist propaganda, or they’re just tankies :/ some hexbears are ok, though, but most here are just discrediting themselves by throwing the propaganda handbook at the passersby.

        • Gsus4@feddit.nl
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          No, it is not good, it’s sabotage, it feels like the lefty version of r/The_Donald. Supposed leftists bragging about “dunking on shitlibs” lol

          • Zoift [he/him]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            9
            ·
            1 year ago

            Then maybe the shitlibs shouldn’t be so dunkable.

            This isn’t debate club nerd. Nobody is required to be nice to you. We can both offer well intentioned arguements, and also engage in the simple pleasure of calling people dipshits.

          • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            1 year ago

            Ok when the word “shitlib” is used here we’re referring to smug, rude, arrogant, reddit-brained imbeciles who functionally support imperialism, right wing apologia, and casual bigotry. They also operate in bad faith from the get go.

            Uneducated progressive “liberals” who are nonetheless openminded and empathetic are not the people who this term refers to.

            • Gsus4@feddit.nl
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Uneducated progressive “liberals” who are nonetheless openminded and empathetic are not the people who this term refers to.

              This still feels a little

              smug, rude, arrogant

              But I’ll take it, I’m certainly not an expert on Marxism. It’s a useful method of inquiry oftentimes, but there are other worthy worldviews and subjects to spend time on that hardly make me uneducated.

              • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                I wasn’t referring to you in particular, I was referring to describing types of “liberals” in general. I am not implying that there is something inherently wrong with being uneducated. Everybody is uneducated in a variety of fields outside of their own expertise, such as nuclear physics, foraging, farming, etc. Similarly, most american progressives simply do not know what the terms “left” and “right” mean in a political context, therefore, they are uneducated. Rather, I was implying that these progressives are well meaning, good-hearted people who just need a bit more knowledge as to where they could direct their energy towards political change. I apologize if it came off as condescending, maybe I should have used the term “unactivated” or “new to politics”.

                but there are other worthy worldviews and subjects to spend time on that hardly make me uneducated

                Thats good, keep reading. If you are interested in politics then I would recommend reading the works of Micheal Parenti.

                • Gsus4@feddit.nl
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Yeah, mostly agree, people are kept from thinking and complaining too much by being overworked, stressed, distracted, manipulated, demotivated, denied access, captured by cults, etc :/ sooo … fuck IP law and let’s get pirating, books ain’t gonna read themselves :D

      • Jesus@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        Yea, it feels like 4chan suddenly saw the light and then turned far-left all at once

        Exactly this. They’re running around spewing barely-sensical insults acting like they’re dunking on people, but all their really doing is turning off anyone who was ever possibly sympathetic to their cause. And are completely un-informed on top of that