No, that is not a bright and sunny outlook, no matter how you cut it.
For those of you cheering on the death of the American Empire and the rise of communism from its ashes… You know you’re never going to live to see that day, right? Maybe your children will, more likely your grandchildren if it happens at all. But between now and then, there will be a new Dark Age and it will last for DECADES minimum.
Get ready for food shortages, water shortages, critical infrastructure like power and Internet going out. Get ready for wars, bloody conflicts, authoritarian crackdowns that make today look like a cordial dinner party.
Like, you guys get that right? It’s not just a switch being flipped. If you want to kill the beast that is the American Empire, it’s going to thrash HARD. It’s going to cause a LOT of fucking damage during and immediately after its collapse, and it won’t be fast. It will be long, slow, and marked with untold amounts of suffering before something, if anything, can be rebuilt.
Yea, yea, society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they’ll never sit under. Just make sure you’re ready to struggle for survival for the rest of your life if you really want that shade to exist.
For those of you cheering on the death of the American Empire and the rise of communism from its ashes… You know you’re never going to live to see that day, right? Maybe your children will, more likely your grandchildren if it happens at all. But between now and then, there will be a new Dark Age and it will last for DECADES minimum.
This might or might not be true and overall I think your comment is a good point (the empire will keep doing damage as it dies).
However, I think the perspective of people from outside the US, especially in the Global South has to be considered. For them, AmeriKKKan “wars, bloody conflicts, authoritarian crackdowns” are already the reality and have been for a long time. America dying is purely beneficial to them, the slow death and thrashing from their perspective will just be the same thing America has always been, but less and less effective over time.
The “authoritarian crackdowns” are not entirely an American byproduct… It’s a product of capitalism. The billionaires aren’t moving to Honduras. So long as the global economy is either euro or asiatic-centric (aka where the money/power lives), the global south will continue to be the capitalists’ playground.
The Europeans have much less capability to intervene in the Third World than America, though they do do so on a smaller scale. I’ll entertain arguments about Asian countries when any of them are actually doing anything that even approaches the things America does. It’s very clear to anyone looking that the largest and most influential imperial power in the world right now is America by far, with the Europeans a distant second.
That is only because the US has outsourced it for them. Europe basically invented third world intervention and only back to back world wars stopped it. If power flips back to Europe and China, don’t think that means the global south will suddenly be interference free. Ask China’s neighbors and any country with fishable ocean how non-expansionist and non-interference they are.
Europe invented third world intervention, and after the US took that over from them most of Europe lost most of its ability to do it independantly. Most third world intervention today is done by the US, if the US collapses it won’t be replaced immediately by Europeans who can all of a sudden magically project power into Latin America.
Ask China’s neighbors and any country with fishable ocean how non-expansionist and non-interference they are.
Don’t compare what the US empire does to anything happening in the South China Sea, that’s a ridiculous thing to say. Even the very bad things China has done so far (for example, war with Vietnam) don’t come close to things the US does on a regular basis.
The US collapsing would create a huge imperialist power vacuum that would at least take time to fill, if that filling ever happened. I’ll quote my original comment you were replying to here.
However, I think the perspective of people from outside the US, especially in the Global South has to be considered. For them, AmeriKKKan “wars, bloody conflicts, authoritarian crackdowns” are already the reality and have been for a long time. America dying is purely beneficial to them, the slow death and thrashing from their perspective will just be the same thing America has always been, but less and less effective over time.
What you’re saying in response to this is, at best, pointless doomerism based on vague hypotheticals. I’m talking about the reality of the world today, which is that America is the only country with both a significant ability to carry out these interventions worldwide and a significant history of doing so.
My only point was that I think you are being incredibly optimistic on how long it takes to fill an imperialist power vacuum, or that the US is definitely currently worse than whatever would replace it. I would say that I am extrapolating from basically all of human history rather than doomerism, but I suppose that is a matter of perspective.
Chinese fishing fleets have been documentedly invading fisheries all over the world and not just the South China Sea. Latin America might experience more lag time on foreign influence due to the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, but exploitation in Africa is not primarily being done by the US currently so I wouldn’t expect to see massive shakeups there.
but exploitation in Africa is not primarily being done by the US currently so I wouldn’t expect to see massive shakeups there.
Debatable, the US is involved a lot in Africa. So are the Europeans, of course, as well as “Israel” and the gulf monarchies, but all of these are propped up to varying degrees by the American world order (except perhaps the French, but their empire is fading as we speak).
I’m not sure if you meant to imply that China was the primary exploiter of Africa (and I don’t want to assume you were saying that), but if so I disagree with the assertion that any degree of Chinese exploitation which might exist compares with what I’ve described in my previous paragraph (these countries routinely openly topple governments and start/support wars and genocides in Africa for their own benefit - in Sudan being the most well-known current example but not even close to the only one).
I would say that I am extrapolating from basically all of human history rather than doomerism, but I suppose that is a matter of perspective.
I think “all of human history” is a bit of a thought-terminating cliche in this case. Many things throughout history have been aesthetically similar (and in some ways functionally similar), but the material basis and therefore specific mechanisms were different. Imperialism in the financial capital sense (as in Lenin’s description) is a very recent thing, historically speaking (perhaps the past few centuries, approximately).
Is there an anarchist happily driving the bus?
AmeriKKKan KKKracKKKers can’t even see a cool anti-America meme without having a western fragility crashout in the comments, lmao.
Accelerationism is the intellectual equivalent of pissing your pants to stay warm: comforting optimism at first, but then the frostbite hits you in the dick.
The meme isn’t arguing for accelerationism. It’s just observing that the US in it’s current incarnation as a fascist state needs to be fought and defeated before anything can get better.
The meme is about accelerationism.
Please learn about the things you pretend to be an authority on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism
Accelerationism is a range of ideologies that call for the use of capitalism and associated processes to create radical social transformations.[1] Broadly, accelerationism engages with antihumanism[2][3] and posthumanism,[4] and seeks to accelerate desired tendencies within capitalism at the expense of negative ones, though variants differ greatly on which tendencies and if this will lead beyond capitalism or further into it.
Not everyone is American here though
So the person who is happy about America failing - the one with the hammer and sickle - is a capitalist?
I think there are a lot of people who call themselves communists here confusing accelerationism with left wing ideologies.
Reminder:
- Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
And I think you’re confusing being happy someone is dying with trying to kill them.
The death of the US Empire isn’t “accelerationism,” it’s an understanding that the number one obstacle to socialism globally is the US Empire, and with it out of the way socialist countries are under far less pressure from the outside. Ideally an indigenous led, decolonial socialist state takes the place of the former US Empire, but a strong and healthy empire isn’t going to get there. That’s why its decay is necessary for both Statesians and the international proletariat.
Are these socialist countries in the room with us right now?
Socialist countries do exist. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.
You are off your rocker if you think whatever comes next will be indigenous led lol. Not that I would be opposed to it. The scary thing is though, what does come next? If it’s socialism great, but what if it’s fascism
It’s important to recognize that the primary contradiction within the US Empire is settler-colonialism. The ones most oppressed by the current society are generally the ones most quickly adaptive to theory and practice, and this isn’t because oppressed people are “morally superior” but out of sheer survival. It’s also why there are so many queer communists. Without combatting settler-colonialism, anything that takes the place of the US Empire will fundamentally replicate that and would be closer to barbarism.
The US Empire is already fascist, fascism isn’t a separate mode of production but instead capitalism in decay.
“native Americans are more likely to like communism” isn’t exactly a solid foundation for establishing “an indigenous led, decolonial socialist state [that] takes the place of the former US Empire,”
It is highly unlikely that if the us government collapses everyone’s going to be like “whelp let’s let the communist indigenous people lead may as well, even though they don’t have the numbers, arms, food or production to run anything”
Sure in an idealistic sense it would be cool to go full Ferngully/dances with wolves/Avatar/noble savage cliche but if we’re going to dream that big I’d like an infinite pizza shooting unicorn.
You’re right, that isn’t a solid foundation. What is, is working class organization along correct lines of struggle, part of which is decolonization, as the US Empire’s primary contradiction is settler-colonialism.
Further, you’re right to say that if the US Empire collapsed now that it would result in barbarism. That’s the point of organizing, though, so that when the US Empire is in crisis, we can overthrow it and implement a new system.
None of this is based on ideals, but learning from historical struggles for socialism.
Idk mate, you’re the one who brought up the idea of an indigenous socialist revolution and now you’re saying that ideal isn’t a solid foundation. I thought the point was to unite the working class as a whole, not put a generic category of race made by colonialism on a pedestal. “Indigenous” isn’t a single group of people who all think vaguely the same about communism, so I’m not sure why you thought it would be a good idea to say that’s the ideal situation.
It’s multi-faceted. Ignoring the settler-colonial nature of the US Empire ignores its primary contradiction, the forces at play in the given society, and why the US proletariat is against revolution right now. Any working class organization needs correct analysis of settler-colonialism to have success elsewhere. It’s similar to trying to have a TERF worker organization, by excluding marginalized comrades and taking incorrect lines, we damage the movement and lose some of our fiercest fighters, all while winding ourselves into reactionary contradictions and tailism.
Well, I wouldn’t really say it’s fascist quite yet (maybe I’m ignorant) but it’s well on the way. My point is it could get a lot worse before it gets better
Both your political parties regularly vote to continue funding ICE, DHS and the NSA. Even as recently as a few days ago. They are both pro-militarisation of the police. They both support the prison industrial complex. They both support US actions in Venezuela. And the fact you can’t make political protests in the US without the risk of being shot or imprisoned nowadays should tell you that you are already living in a fascist state. It’s a fantasy to think that, even if the Dems somehow get this administration out of office, they will fundamentally change any of those things. At least now the mask is off and you know what you are up against. The problem with libs is that they think everything would be a-ok so long as their fascist was in charge.
There are some abominable democrats, but there are some good ones too. Your statements are simply not true for a solid portion of democrats. It is a fantasy to think things would be much better if the Dems get this admin out though, I agree. And to get anything done there is pandering required with the other leading party, which I think stops the Democrats from becoming as leftist as many would want to. So yeah, progress is hard. It seems to me that the political perspective of Americans across the board needs to shift left before much change can be had, so that the Democrats are true leftists and the Republicans are less far right
There are some abominable democrats, but there are some good ones too.
I totally agree that’s true. Most Dems on lemmy are far to the left of their own party on most issues. But unfortunately, the party leadership is way to the right on most issues, and they are the ones in positions of power and influence.
It seems to me that the political perspective of Americans across the board needs to shift left before much change can be had, so that the Democrats are true leftists and the Republicans are less far right
This isn’t how it actually works, though. The Dems and Reps aren’t very representative of the Statesian public, but instead its capitalists. The US is a capitalist state, it’s a dictatorship of capital, and both allowed parties represent capital only. This is shown by the low voting rates in the US Empire, the DNC and GOP cannot move left, only working class orgs can represent the working class.
It’s been fascist for decades. Fascism doesn’t become official only when it happens to white people almost as much as the rest of us.
One of the key characteristics of fascism is autocracy. You could argue that applies today but certainly not for decades. Regardless of if, from your perspective, neither party aligns with your goals and are far right by that standard, they are still working against each other.
Answer this because I’m curious of your perspective. Is Russia fascist, and if not why not? From what I have been exposed to (which certainly is biased admittedly) Russia is at least as far on the fascism scale as the US, they have a lot of similarities in my mind, but nobody on here will say that, but then turn around and label the US fascist.
If you think it wasn’t fascist over a century at least and point at anything “politics” then I am pointing at your finger.
That’s a circus; a show.
Look at the Banks. That’s politics. Watch it stringing the hands of workers a families. Sure their politics are in an Arch of characterization oration but they’re not even trying to force make anyone do anything.
Look at the Money. They’re puppetstrings fluxxing like Marty never fixed the Cubs mistake when it turned out that whole shenanigan was done like an inbelievably candid rigged card game, so named and trapped all attention from seeing the hot ounce balloon inflated for show. Pop the bubble. It was made to be see happening so we not get the trick dropped in 'Nam and settle for watching this cheeky shown name deflating like a doll.
Fascism and liberalism don’t have hard lines distinguishing them, they each contain elements of the other.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism
Accelerationism is a range of ideologies that call for the use of capitalism and associated processes to create radical social transformations.[1] Broadly, accelerationism engages with antihumanism[2][3] and posthumanism,[4] and seeks to accelerate desired tendencies within capitalism at the expense of negative ones, though variants differ greatly on which tendencies and if this will lead beyond capitalism or further into it.
Yep, nobody is advocating for making this worse here, but organizing as they necessarily are. We can also celebrate the decay in influence from the US Empire as it dies. Accelerationism is bad because it alienates people for no real benefit, but organizing consistently the entire way through does work.
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Still not sure why you think communism is fascism, considering communism stands for collectivized production and distribution to satisfy the needs of everyone while fascism is capitalism in decay violently asserting the freedom of private property and forcing austerity on the public.
Socialist countries and fascist ones have, consequentially, had enormously different results, where socialist countries were marked with dramatic improvements in life expectancy, literacy rates, housing rates, healthcare, education, employment, and more, fascist states have delivered enormous profits to a tiny subsection of society and dramatically lowered these key metrics.
Not really sure what your goal is, here, if it’s to discredit me then you actually need to put in the legwork to do so. Otherwise it’ll backfire.
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What do you mean by “human nature” that prevents socialism globally? I’m talking about the real world, where tendencies towards centralization, globalization, and monopolization prepare the groundwork for a collectivized and planned economy, just like what Marx initially observed back in the 1800s in early form.
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There’s no ChatGPT involved, and I’d appreciate you dropping the condescension. People’s way of thinking is determined by their lived experience, how they work and how they get what they need. As it becomes harder and harder for that to happen, at the same time we are already building up incredibly complex systems of production and distribution.
What remains is for working class organization, revolution, and nationalizing the large firms and key industries, finance, etc in any given country. Other countries have already done this before, it isn’t impossible, and people become increasingly motivated to do so and it becomes increasingly feasible as disparity increases.
The Party for Socialism and Liberation has a Party Program you can read for a US-based approach.
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It’s absolutely practical, actionable, and realistic, though. If you live in the US, you can join the PSL, as an example, and work towards this goal. Which part in particular do you think isn’t actionable or practical?
where accelerationists?
I’m starting to doubt that term ever had any salience or useful definition
.ml
Lol
if this were my instance I would ban people for reddit comments
You would achieve communism in one Lemmy instance for the few dozen remaining users.
I really don’t understand why a lot of people left reddit only to try to re-create all the worst parts, lol.
Please remember to engage in a manner congruent with this community’s spirit of socialist unity
I dunno if glee is the right emotion. America is going to lash out hard in it’s death throes and cause a lot more pain and destruction. There’s also no guarantee that what comes next will be any better; if anything, I’m expecting powerful corporations to carve up her corpse.
The rest of the world can breathe a sigh of relief when it’s done, but an animal becomes most dangerous when it’s backed into a corner.
It’s interesting to live through the death of a modern empire. Given how much access there is to history it really surprises me that no lesson is learned and no graceful transition is opted for.
Instead they follow the same route as all the empires of old, increasing violence and desperation practically guaranteeing hatred and reprisal when they are crippled and broken.
Of course all the elite will be dead by then so I suppose material analysis wins again as the correct lens to analyse history through.
“The rich experience of history teaches that up to now not a single class has voluntarily made way for another class. There is no such precedent in world history. The Communists have learned this lesson of history. Communists would welcome the voluntary departure of the bourgeoisie. But such a turn of affairs is improbable; that is what experience teaches. That is why the Communists want to be prepared for the worst and call upon the working class to be vigilant, to be prepared for battle.” - Stalin
Said it better than me haha, no original thoughts in the world.
graceful transition
Where do we opt for that when voting?
;D
The proles of the usa are not and have never been in charge. While I don’t advocate complete disengagement from ‘representative’ politics it is important to understand it as a distracting machine to give legitimacy to the bourgeois rulers.
If you want to change things your power base must be significant and, critically, it must exist outside the machinery of state.
being the only dinosaur left unscarred from ww2 meant none of these family-of-sociopaths were ever forced to recognize we’re kind of in this mess together. needing to completely rebuild your infrastructure from 0 kind forces a bit of empathy into everyone i think.
with how purposefully fractured the US is (long long history of this, many towns across the country are de facto company towns for the local real estate baron), this will only happen if the country has another Great Depression era. which is very much a possibility given the US’s ever growing sovereign-debt crisis and a completely gutted internal manufacturing capacity/capability.
if/when the US finally defaults and USD crumbles as world reserve currency (which is already happening, countries are just trying to gtfo as sustainably as they can without crashing their own house of cards)…shit goes from bad to worse real fucking quick.
Nah this is US exceptionalism still. The circumstances of the usa are no more or less unique than any previous empire and the same forces rule.
no graceful transition is opted for
transition to what, exactly? i think people might have vastly different opinions about this, so it’s not easy to just go to a new thing
Instead they follow the same route as all the empires of old, increasing violence and desperation practically guaranteeing hatred and reprisal when they are crippled and broken.
When you are about to die yourself, do you just let it happen or do you struggle and try to fight against it?
I don’t think personification of nation states is a useful model when reasoning about how they behave.
Examples of transitions would be building up the independence and economies of previously oppressed states claimed in dominion, in order to build an economic bloc that can be relied on. Meanwhile winding back spending on military and force projection.
Nobody would ever do this, I just wish people could learn how to avoid the same mistakes as every previous empire.
At least life will almost certainly improve for south Americans.
Fighting back against fascism is great, but fighting for a slightly more benevolent form of fascism won’t get you anywhere. You really think the Dems will abolish ice if they get Trump out if office?
You really think the Dems will abolish ice if they get Trump out if office?
United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (“ICE”)
Formed: March 1, 2003; 22 years ago
They had a couple opportunities to already, and didn’t.
It didn’t start with Trump, does not likely end with Trump, did not end with Dems.
The only problem Dems see with ICE is their lack of training. If they ever get back in control, they’d increase ICE funding under the guise of getting them better trained.
i never said i support the democrats. in fact i don’t. sorry if it came across that way.
Ok, fair enough. I don’t know what the future will look like any better than anyone else. But imo fighting fascists is always better than just letting it happen.
But imo fighting fascists is always better than just letting it happen.
This absolutely. No matter how hopeless it is, if you do not even try, they will win.
Relevant.
So we’ve got MAGA chud, Bernie Bro, Spanish anarchist, and… French guy?
A much better meme
“The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.”
― Antonio Gramsci (misattributed)
Yep. Am American, sad about what a seemingly good idea got warped into over 250yrs. Fuck this joint, but there will most certainly be real monsters created in the void until things stabilize.
No offense but when was the US ever a good idea?
I mean, the land was already occupied… And now suddenly you talk about monsters? They have always been there.
None taken. I mean the idea of a representational democracy. People were there, and there’s still more than enough land to go around.
In an alternate timeline, we could have negotiated for the land with the native Americans, invited then to join the US, or let them keep their sovereignty but within bounds of their choosing, while always allowing them to become citizens if they or their descendents desired. We all could have won.
Slavery? We didn’t need it, if growth at all costs wasn’t our insignia. The land provided/provides more than enough, if we take care of it.
But this is all fantasy, destroyed by greed, and laziness. Doing it the right way would have been hard work. And we know how fucking lazy pieces of shit like musk, trump, Epstein, et al actually are.
We have always lived in slums and holes in the wall. We will know how to accommodate ourselves for a time. For, you must not forget, we can also build. It is we the workers who built these palaces and cities here in Spain and in America and everywhere. We, the workers, can build others to take their place. And better ones! We are not in the least afraid of ruins. We are going to inherit the earth; there is not the slightest doubt about that. The bourgeoisie may blast and burn its own world before it finally leaves the stage of history. We are not afraid of ruins. We who ploughed the prairies and built the cities can build again, only better next time. We carry a new world, here in our hearts. The world is growing this minute.
—Buenaventura Durruti, interview with Pierre van Paassen (1936-07-24)
Well said. Maybe there’s a chance we can pull out of this nosedive.
The opening in the window for that is now barely wide enough to slip a sheet of paper into.
But hey, crowbars have done more, with less. Let’s see what happens.
Maybe there’s a chance we can pull out of this nosedive.
Though please don’t send the descendants back to Europe and Africa.
The opening in the window for that is now barely wide enough to slip a sheet of paper into.
Yep, like James Corbett (of The Corbett Report fame) said recently, some are sad the door’s only a crack open, and he’s hopping excited, YES, THE DOOR IS A CRACK OPEN! It having never been so in the decades he’s been doing this.
Now is the time.
Crowbar o’clock! :D
Whew, talk about some revolutionary optimism!
He was a true anarchist that fought in the Spanish War.
just die already. I’m not even a socialist, I just want that nation of criminals and pedophiles to stop trying to replicate it’s corruption everywhere.
Fool. It’s just gonna spiral into fascism. It does not just die, it has to be killed. But you domesticated Americans can’t get off your asses. Like lambs to the slaughter.
into
?
Like… deeper?
But you domesticated Americans can’t get off your asses. Like lambs to the slaughter.
An increasing whole lot of people are declining to take the fluoride any more.
Nah, bro, I’ll save America later. One more meme…
it fills my heart with joy to know me and my folk could one day be free, and it’s only getting closer. we just gotta survive the storm, which is a tall order but still.
Historically speaking, shit gets uber fucked before anything gets better. And getting better isn’t a guarantee. It’s why accelerationism is stupid. It just guarantees conflict, and with how completely destroyed the American left is from red scare shit, it’s highly unlikely some sort of more egalitarian state will rise from the ashes from conflict alone.
oh i doubt the us will recover easily, but we will have a chance to be free after the empire’s influence over the world wanes.
Historically speaking, things always get worse. Solving problems just leads to more and worse problems to solve. Humans are doomed.
Now Is The Time of Monsters
If I recall correctly… That particular monster encouraged children to be poisoned.
Soviet Union not looking so hot at the moment either.
Where is the Soviet Union mentioned exactly?
They’re equating the hammer and sickle with the USSR.
Considering the USA killed it in the 80s, I guess not.
The Cold War superpowers killed each other. Some of them just haven’t realised it yet.
I don’t doubt the US was cheering and helping things along, but really the Soviet Union (specifically Communist Party hardliners) killed the Soviet Union, just like America is now killing America. Empires that big only die by war or suicide.
The soviet union wasn’t an empire. It was large, sure, but didn’t practice imperialism, it wasn’t exporting capital as a means of profiting off of global south labor or anything. It was anti-imperialist.
Either way, the decline of the USSR was multi-faceted. From corn-cob man declaring that class struggle was over and demonizing their past experience, to liberal reforms under Gorbachev undermining the socialist system, to having to dedicate huge portions of their productive capacity simply to not get invaded and destroyed by the US Empire, none of this was due to “communist party hardliners.” Instead, as the world’s first real socialist state, it ran into problems and struggles that nobody else had before, they were charting new ground with every step.
Socialism Betrayed: Behind the Collapse of the Soviet Union goes over some of this.
You may want to read information with how Reagan leaned on Gorbachev and about glasnost and perestroika. Preferably not from fedopedia. I’m sure u/@Cowbee@lemmy.ml has some material to point you toward.
The soviet Union was the opposite of an empire, though. It helped the liberation struggles everywhere in Latin America, Africa and Asia. They literally saved Europe from Fascism.
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I encourage Greenlanders to watch the news.
I encourage everybody to not fall for “the news”.
