• GONADS125@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    177
    arrow-down
    22
    ·
    edit-2
    7 months ago

    I’m pasting an old comment of mine from the official lemmy.world post discussing potential future federation with threads/meta:

    I would like to start by expressing my sincere gratitude and appreciation for the hard work you’ve done with lemmy.world. But I am strongly opposed to federating with Threads. Please read this comment in full, as I believe it outlines the sentiment and reservations held by many within our community.

    I think it might be helpful to use an analogy that I think will help express the feelings of many of those within our community regarding the problem with the “wait and see” approach.

    What’s to say Threads won’t follow in their very well-established footprints under Meta as a company?

    If I go to a friend’s house and their child spits in my face every time, I don’t want to go to my friend’s house. I tell them this. The friend again says, “Well this time just might be different, let’s just wait and see!” Meanwhile, this kid spits in my face without fail, every chance they get. There is a very consistent and pervasive pattern of this.

    Why should I believe this kid won’t spit in my face all of a sudden, when they’ve taken every single chance they could repeatedly, knowing that it was wrong and not caring what repercussions would befall them? Do you really think this kid is going to refrain from spitting in my face this time?

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein -someone.

    Meta/FB have continually demonstrated their core business practices are unethical and that they will continue carrying them out without regard for laws or their users’ well-being. There’s no reason to wait and see. It’s not logical to believe this time will be different.

    Threads would bring such a large influx of hateful, racist, violent, bigoted political extremists to the fediverse. They will also do whatever they can to exploit users on this site for their own gain. Their modus operandi has been to exploit their users.

    Instead of just conjecture and analogies, I will now provide factual information regarding Meta’s practices as a company.

    This really should be obvious by now… but Meta mines and sells their user’s information. Just look at the permissions you have to grant them for Threads… That alone should tell you there’s no reason to “wait and see.” Just look right now. They haven’t changed…

    FB users have to agree to all sorts of unethical things in the TOS, including giving Meta permission to run unethical experiments on their users without informed consent. Their first published research was where they manipulated users’ feeds with positive or negative information, in order to see if it affected their mood. It did, and they successfully induced depression in many of their users!

    Meta has played a very key role in spreading misinformation, perpetuating dangerous conspiracy theories, and radicalizing the alt right. This is present across nations, but it certainly contributed heavily to the climate of political extremism that led to a mass of insurrectionists to attempt to overthrow my duly elected government…

    I will now turn to an article that surmises well the core practices of Meta as a company:

    • Elevates disinformation campaigns and conspiracy theories from the extremist fringes into the mainstream, fostering, among other effects, the resurgent anti-vaccination movement, broad-based questioning of basic public health measures in response to COVID-19, and the proliferation of the Big Lie of 2020—that the presidential election was stolen through voter fraud [16];

    • Empowers bullies of every size, from cyber-bullying in schools, to dictators who use the platform to spread disinformation, censor their critics, perpetuate violence, and instigate genocide;

    • Defrauds both advertisers and newsrooms, systematically and globally, with falsified video engagement and user activity statistics;

    • Reflects an apparent political agenda espoused by a small core of corporate leaders, who actively impede or overrule the adoption of good governance;

    • Brandishes its monopolistic power to preserve a social media landscape absent meaningful regulatory oversight, privacy protections, safety measures, or corporate citizenship; and

    • Disrupts intellectual and civil discourse, at scale and by design.

    I ask you now if you truly believe this is the sort of player you want on the Fediverse? Do you really want to federate lemmy.world with such a blatantly immoral and detrimental corporation?

    I have really enjoyed my time here on Lemmy.world and have so greatly appreciated the hard work of you and your team. I have been donating to you to help with the costs of running this instance.

    However, federating with Threads contradicts my philosophy and ethical principles, and I will be sadly canceling my donations and finding a new home should we federate with Threads in the future. I firmly believe that most users on lemmy.world share this sentiment. I hope this comment helped express the resistance and fears of our community.

    Once again, I appreciate all the work you guys have done. But I respectfully and severely dissent on this issue.

    • helenslunch@feddit.nl
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      7 months ago

      Why should I believe this kid won’t spit in my face all of a sudden, when they’ve taken every single chance they could repeatedly, knowing that it was wrong and not caring what repercussions would befall them?

      Because Fedi puts up a glass window.

      They simply can’t do anything to hurt the Fedi. The Fedi was built specifically to resist that kind of intrusion. They can only hurt themselves, and help their users by showing them how easy it is to transition to a platform that isn’t riddled with ads and data-mining while still remaining connected to their family and friends/news/etc.

      There is no data for Meta to mine by federating that isn’t already publicly available. Federating does not suddenly give them unfettered access to every connected server.

      • GONADS125@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        7 months ago

        The examples I listed were to demonstrate the fact that meta/FB is a bad actor, not that all are applicable to lemmy.

        Also, the lemmy.world team admitted that lemmy lacks the moderation tools required for federation with threads.

        This doesn’t pair well with the extremist content popular and promoted on threads. And I’m tired of hearing about the false solution people keep pretending exists in the form of personally blocking instances.

        That may solve me not seeing the content, but what about my fellow users? What about people browsing without a profile/not signed in?

        I care about more than myself. I care about the health of fellow human beings on this site, and I don’t want Threads to increase the amount of radicalization and extremism on this site. I don’t want more people to fall victim to radicalization. I have lost family to qanon/maga cults and I think we need to protect the integrity of the fediverse.

        When players like threads/meta try to join in, I believe it is the responsibility of admins of the large instances to protect their users and refuse to federate with them. Period.

        • helenslunch@feddit.nl
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          7 months ago

          The examples I listed were to demonstrate the fact that meta/FB is a bad actor

          Okay but, we all know that already. This discussion is about federating with Lemmy/Fedi.

          • GONADS125@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            7 months ago

            Okay but, we all know that already. This discussion is about federating with Lemmy/Fedi.

            Tell that to the astroturfers simping for FB/Threads…

            And do you understand how you reinforce an argument with supporting evidence? I wanted to establish factual information supporting a clear history of the company’s bad practices. That was/is relevant to consideration of federating with a platform.

            In fact, lemmy.world has already defederated with instances due to failure to moderate far-right extremism. So why would they federate with Threads when far-right extremism is already a systemic issue and they have admitted lemmy lacks the necessary moderation tools to manage Threads federation?

            It seems obvious to me that is a bad idea and it would cultivate a more toxic user experience with more recruitment for radicalism/extremism.

            • SCB@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              7 months ago

              Tell that to the astroturfers simping for FB/Threads…

              No one is astroturfing lemmy. People who disagree with you are not paid actors. They just disagree with you.

              • GONADS125@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                7 months ago

                I wasn’t referring to people disagreeing with me. I upvoted users I disagreed with in this post’s comments to promote discussion (such as upvoting your downvoted comment here).

                I was referring to people that engage in disingenuous argumentative tactics clearly pushing an agenda, whose presence is also accompanied by what seems like blatant vote manipulation/brigading. This was present when Threads federation was originally a being discussed a little while back. That’s what I was referring to.

                I don’t think I’m going to go out of my way to track down examples, but you may be able to find some from the link to where my comment is originally from.

                You can also assume I’m wrong, and that’s okay by me. But astroturfing is absolutely a tactic Meta employs. Source

                • SCB@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  7 months ago

                  I do in fact disagree with you, yes. I am not, however, paid for it

            • helenslunch@feddit.nl
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              5
              ·
              7 months ago

              Tell that to the astroturfers simping for FB/Threads…

              And do you understand how you reinforce an argument with supporting evidence?

              Wow, the fucking hypocrisy of those 2 statements in the same breath. Anybody who considers that this could actually be good for the fedi is “simping for Meta”? What a fucking child.

              That was/is relevant to consideration of federating with a platform.

              It is not even in the slightest, unless such federation somehow supports Meta, which, to my knowledge, it does the opposite. If you’d like to provide evidence to the contrary, I’m all ears. If you want to pull random accusations out of your ass about anyone who disagrees with you, you can take that shit elsewhere.

              • GONADS125@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                7 months ago

                There’s no hypocrisy; you’re just stating a false equivalence. Not to mention totally ignoring the entire argument about radicalization on threads/inability to moderate it on lemmy.

                And you keep stating that my points establishing character in regard to Meta/Threads are irrelevant, but you aren’t making a good argument as to why. You fixate on that as a strawman argument while ignoring my point that lack of moderation on threads will negatively affect fediverse communities with toxic/extremist content.

                You’re arguing like a petulant middle schooler with ad hominem and strawman tactics. Get back to me if you can speak like a grown-up. Otherwise I’m not going to engage with you. (Before you “no u” me with another false equivalence, my remarks were not on the same personal attack level.)

        • Pepsi@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          6 months ago

          it’s not just that i want to stay in my bubble i want to make sure everyone else stays in my bubble too

        • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          7 months ago

          It does seem like your goal here is to limit what other people can see, rather than curating your own individual experience. Do you believe that I should have similar influence on what content you are allowed to interact with?

          • GONADS125@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            7 months ago

            I believe the users within instances should play a role in the instances’ decisions on the topic. I believe you should have as much say as I do in arguing your perspective.

            I’m simply making a case for why I think it is the wrong decision. I believe Threads should be treated like exploding heads and not be federated with.

            If you want to see such content, you still can. You can subscribe to that source, an instance federating with it, or host your own instance. But refusing to federate with it insulates the community from propoganda, misinformation, and radicalization.

    • HATEFISH@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      7 months ago

      Exhibit A: see how Google idly fucks with Firefox by getting it to run around in circles the way you might idly taunt your friends cat with a laser pointer

      What is this referring to?

      • 27myths@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        15
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        7 months ago

        Probably talking about how there was code found in YouTube that makes playing videos slower on Firefox. It was supposedly a bug but I believe this happened recently along with Google declaring war on ad blockers. So obviously a lot of people believe it wasn’t just a bug.

      • Rikudou_Sage@lemmings.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        7 months ago

        I don’t know if they had some specific thing on their mind, but generally Firefox pretty much needs to do whatever Google wants with the web standards, because Firefox is close to becoming irrelevant (which is a damn shame, I’ve been using that browser for forever).

        • Anony Moose@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          7 months ago

          Also, Google is a (the?) major source of funding for Mozilla, so they have a lot of clout with them.

    • kernelle@0d.gs
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      7 months ago

      Wait and see is not ignoring anything though, and have not read a single argument against it. Defederation can happen at any time for any reason in the future, why would you preemptively exclude a potential for ActivityPub to get major recognition?

      I’m not excluding the possibility an EEE attempt, and meta’s track record definitely shows they will try. But people using ActivityPub right now won’t stop because a company forked it into their own standard, we are here specifically for the exact opposite. Meta literally has zero influence on any of us, if anything it’s the exact opposite.

      Also “learning from history” is a weak argument, every server admin as the possibility to defederate at any moment. When even the slightest misstep is placed, everyone defederates and Meta will live in their own little federated world, boo fucking hoo.

      • haui@lemmy.giftedmc.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        7 months ago

        Here you have some arguments then:

        Federating with a 10x larger entity that has a ton of very well known names on their list is going to dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer. I‘m not saying in quality but definitely in quantity.

        The argument is sound because its the exact same that happens with heroin. Your brain gets flooded with dopamine, you feel as happy as you have never felt in your life and likely will never feel again. The withdrawal symptoms are reported to be cruel. The reason is that „healthy“ amounts of dopamine just dont cut it anymore.

        The same happens to people quitting big corpo „social“ media. I felt it and I have read of dozens who felt it as well (Obviously not as hard as heroin but the same mechanic). Now I‘m off the proverbial needle and meta federating is just going to bring us back to old habits. Endless, partly divisive content, potential for pushing ads with the posts and using our reactions for profiling.

        Like the frog in the kettle we wont get dystopia tomorrow but like disney pushing their prices 50%, we get it eventually, bit by bit.

        If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.

        Also, we’ve had this discussion with covid, with climate change, with lgbtq rights, abortion… can we maybe start seeing the pattern here? Its always „not that bad“ while some are abusing and exploiting others and those who call it out have the „woke virus“ and are called fearmongers.

        Fearmongering is if the media or the government does it, not people who are actually there using the stuff and suffering under things. That is called asking others for help/to understand.

        • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          7 months ago

          You forgot profit.

          If Meta/threads sees a way to cram ads into their instance(s), they will. If they offer money to others to put ads on their instances, they will. If they make rules or other demands of those making money - like no defederating from Meta/Threads, or requiring federating with other corporate instances, they will. On top of that, you’re going to get people drawn into the fediverse, like influencers, political spammers, more bots, and anyone else that follows that type of social media. Coders will start writing corporate-friendly instance code that will allow individuals (like influencers) to spin up profitable instances quickly that tie right into the corporateverse.

          EEE will happen. We can argue about defederating from these corporate instances, but it’s going to be a running retreat.

          Maybe hyperbolic. Maybe not. If, of course, if meta/threads finds the fediverse profitable.

          • haui@lemmy.giftedmc.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            7 months ago

            I really enjoyed reading this although it is quite dystopian. Very well put. Thank you.

            You know that someone with the ability to write like this could always write to the guy who founded mastodon for example (who apparently is on the hype train himself, who knows, maybe he has been paid already. But I got no evidence).

            I‘m actually suspecting a lot of the „wait & see“ peeps to be paid actors or „true believers“ that already have a threads account and are working for the takeover.

            • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              7 months ago

              I’m pretty cynical. I’m a huge sci-fi fan, and enjoy everything from Star Trek, to The Expanse, to William Gibson’s novels. P K Dick, too.

              You want to know which futuristic reality they projected is the one in the lead? I can tell you it’s not the gleaming white space stations with hundreds of thousands of humans peacefully engaged in furthering knowledge and exploration.

              Nope.

              It’s the despotic corporatocracy with the token ineffective government winning. The corporations rule all. Ever read Jennifer Government? Yeah, we’re headed for Gibson’s Sprawl and disparity in a hurry…well, if Climate Change doesn’t get us all first.

              • haui@lemmy.giftedmc.com
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                7 months ago

                I feel like I would like to read those but 1984 already made me wanna puke so I might have to pass.

                Still, I very much get what you mean.

          • kernelle@0d.gs
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            7 months ago

            So then explain to me, how exactly does this impact you? What about you block the meta instance yourself? You will not see any threads content and will continue to use lemmy/ActivityPub in literally the exact same way.

            • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              7 months ago

              If corporations get their hooks into the fediverse it will be like putting out fires. Plenty of people out there willing to sacrifice what the fediverse is for a few bucks. I don’t want Threads/Meta to even get a toehold, that shit’s poison.

              • kernelle@0d.gs
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                7 months ago

                Do you know how federation works? Because if you did you’d know that ‘corportions get their hooks into the fediverse’ does not mean anything. Defederation and forking of the source code is a click away, the reason lemmy exists is to move away from corporations. Contradicting that would just spawn a new lemmy federation.

                • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  Did you read what I wrote? Are you just being stubborn about human nature? Don’t insult me by implying I don’t understand this stuff at least at the surface level. All I’m painting is a potential future, and that future is depended on corporations finding the fediverse worth the effort. If they don’t, NBD. If they do, I can assure you they will grind away at what the fediverse is until it’s shaped like what they want, federation be damned. Like I said, maybe you can carve out a corpo-free area, but that depends on the instance operators wanting to put out the effort and money while corps are potentially waving cash in their direction. Humans are shortsighted and greedy.

        • kernelle@0d.gs
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          7 months ago

          dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer

          You curate your own feed, if you don’t like seeing posts from that instance, then block it yourself. Like with NSFW instances, I don’t see any in my feed, don’t like them? Block them. For new users there will be instances who have defederated and those who have not. Why should your dopamine addiction be my problem? Advocating for every instance to defederate preemptively is more than counter productive, it’s the very definition of fear mongering.

          So no, your argument does not hold up.

          If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.

          Then we will defederate, people wanting that algorithmic dopamine hit are already getting it, and people in virtual rehab will know to block anything they want.

          There is still no argument against the wait and see approach.

          • haui@lemmy.giftedmc.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            ·
            7 months ago

            Why should your dopamine addiction be my problem?

            The same reason our taxes pay for mental health clinics, addiction therapies, methadone clinics and so on…

            Because it is the right thing to do.

            and secondly, because its not my problem. I‘m just aware of it. This article explains it well. There is a study about it but I can’t find it rn. https://www.marketplace.org/2023/10/10/new-research-quantifies-why-you-want-to-quit-social-media-but-cant/

            • kernelle@0d.gs
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              7 months ago

              If you really want to compare social media to drug use, how does the need for decriminalisation fit into this? Don’t limit what people can or can’t do because you fear the outcome. Let everyone (ie users and admins) decide for themselves which platforms they want to see, and give them the tools to do so.

              • haui@lemmy.giftedmc.com
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                7 months ago

                You probably see that you changed gears now, right?

                I answered your question. That is why you should care and not jump on the bandwagon.

                Just for completeness: i never said its completely the same. I said (and have proof) that social media can be and very often is addictive and keeping a profiting company out isnt keeping the drugs from people. Its cutting the dealer out. Basically the same as legalization if you will.

                • kernelle@0d.gs
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  I agree with the premise that Meta is a horrible company and we pay close attention on how its federation progresses. I still have not seen a single argument that holds any weight, from you as well, against the wait and see approach.

                  “Because it’s the right thing to do” is not an argument, it’s a statement without anything to back you up. What is right is subjective to everyone.

                  Also, I have not changed gears, and still firmly believe there’s a lot to be gained. Any concerns you have, I already answered. Anyone has a place in the fediverse, because its core principle is exactly that. Don’t agree? Then block the fucking instance.

          • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            7 months ago

            There are plenty of arguments. You’re just not listening because you’re likely just some dumb shill getting paid to astroturf for Threads like you assholes always do whenever corporations need your help convincing stupid people online corporate interests are what the majority wants.

            • kernelle@0d.gs
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              7 months ago

              Then go ahead, argue, I’m trying to have a civil conversation.

              I host my own server to get away from monopolies, I actively support the development of lemmy and ActivityPub, what do you do exactly but detract credibility from your peers do have genuine concerns.

              • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                7 months ago

                I ignore dumbasses like you and carry on with my life, knowing I can convince everyone else not to listen to you. Ignoring obvious astroturfing is an easy sell.

                • kernelle@0d.gs
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  I ignore dumbasses like you and carry on with my life

                  Clearly you are not, also having a civil discussion with people who don’t share your point of view is an important life skill, try it out sometime.

                  So what exactly do you do for this platform except from spreading hate and intolerance?

        • kernelle@0d.gs
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          7 months ago

          Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, is a strategy tech companies (and a lot more outside of tech as well) have used to use existing open standard and over time slowly add, adapt and finally take over those standards.

          It’s a genuine concern this might happen to ActivityPub and Lemmy by extension by Meta, who is integrating ActivityPub as we speak.

          • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            7 months ago

            Thanks for the explanation. I can see how this could be a concern, especially with the historical actions of every tech giant, Facebook included

    • nave@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      7 months ago

      How exactly? Let’s say they follow the EEE strategy and eventually drop support for ActivityPub. Then it’s exactly the same as it is now. People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit. The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.

      • sir_reginald@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        edit-2
        7 months ago

        People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger.

        Do you realise how hypocritical this is? Using the fediverse is effectively using XMPP in this analogy.

        Just compare the 100 million users of Threads vs the 1.5 million MAU of the fediverse.

        Threads is the corporate-backed proprietary service (Google talk) and the fediverse is the small network of federated servers hosted mainly by volunteers (XMPP).

        By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit.

        By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?

        The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.

        XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.

        • nave@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          7 months ago

          By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?

          Because the majority of XMPP users were Google Talk and Facebook Messenger users. Fediverse users are explicitly using the Fediverse.

          XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.

          Aren’t you agreeing with me here? Thats my point effectively nothing changes if Facebook drops ActivityPub.

    • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      7 months ago

      I can’t wait to post the c/leopardsatemyface threads about all of these hopeless retards who refused to listen to me and even attacked me when I told them the same thing months ago, and then laugh at them when I bounce

      No collective action is possible because everyone else is too stupid, immature, arrogant and entitled to humble themselves enough to listen and do what is right.

      It’s time for those of us who have noticed the serious problems with federation to build a new platform and move on. Or just build our own separate websites with forums again.

      • dumpsterlid@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        7 months ago

        Not really vibing with calling people retards bruh.

        I understand being upset and wanting it all to burn down but this is the best chance we have.

        • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          7 months ago

          Not really vibing with you complaining about something minor and petty to give yourself an out from admitting you are doing something egregiously wrong. Bruh.

          You’re the one who’s going to suffer by not listening to me. You claim to hold the world to high standards when you refuse to even follow them yourself, instead choosing the convenience of having a website to use rather than being better than that and building something better. And then you have the nerve to pretend to be offended over something.

          Grow the fuck up. The fediverse obviously isn’t working and is falling victim to the censorship and regulatory capture you claim to oppose, so it’s time for you to either move on or accept that you’re okay with corporations infecting everything you build so you don’t have to keep expending precious mental energy you’d rather waste on video games.

  • Steve@communick.news
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    74
    arrow-down
    14
    ·
    edit-2
    7 months ago

    Short sighted mistake. Terrible Idea.

    Adopt, Extend, Destroy Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. That’s the game plan. It’s worked so many times in the past.

    • kpw@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      15
      ·
      7 months ago

      It only works if people stop using Mastodon once Threads stops federating. ActivityPub is dead they will say.

        • kpw@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          8
          ·
          7 months ago

          When the big corporations leave people just need to reist the “oh the user numbers are so small now, the Fediverse must be outdated” fallacy. Just like XMPP. Still works great, we just need people to use it instead of the silos which are popular now.

          • 567PrimeMover@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            18
            ·
            7 months ago

            People need to reject the idea that “bigger number = better service”. The big players like that line of thinking because it cements their role of dominance and discourages competition. The fediverse will never be as big as Meta and it’s all the better for it. IDK about others but I prefer a small, active userbase with interests similar to my own over an ocean of crap

    • 👁️👄👁️@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      7 months ago

      They don’t need to do that when the fedi is a thousandth of the size of their social networks lol. It’s hilarious that you think they need our user base.

      • Steve@communick.news
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        14
        ·
        7 months ago

        They don’t care about the user base we have today. They want to eliminate the potential user base we may have in a decade.

      • Buddahriffic@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        12
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        7 months ago

        It’s not so much about wanting this user base as it is eliminating potential competition and maybe stamping out a place on the internet where people can freely and openly communicate.

    • 0x1C3B00DA@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      7 months ago

      You can’t really Embrace, Extend, Extinguish an open standard. Anybody can continue to use the unextended version and that’s exactly what would happen if Meta tried it. They can’t force servers to update or implement meta-specific features

      • Adanisi@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        7 months ago

        You could say the same thing about any EEE strategy against anything not proprietary. However, evidently it works.

        • 0x1C3B00DA@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          7 months ago

          No it doesn’t because you can’t extinguish a publically available standard when anybody can write their own software. XMPP is the horror story used to warn about EEE, but it still exists. The fediverse is a small network right now. If Meta tried to EEE it, server admins who don’t want to participate in a Meta-controlled network would not implement Meta’s extensions. The network would splinter into a Meta-fediverse and the actual fediverse, which would be smaller than it is now but still exist as a free and open network that could continue to grow.

          They can’t turn off our servers, or force us to implement their tech, or stop us from implementing freedom/privacy preserving features.

          EDIT: The reason EEE did so much damage to XMPP was because most users weren’t aware of it. XMPP got so big because non-tech savvy users didn’t even know they were using it. So when Google starting phasing it out users didn’t even realize it, they only maybe realized they couldn’t talk to one or two people now. But the fediverse has always been an explicit alternative to corporate social media and advertised that it is built on open standards that are not controlled by corporations. Its one of the key factors in a lot of the userbase’s decision to be here. If a split were to happen, that would leave the remaining open fediverse still large enough to sustain itself (even if its smaller than it is at this moment).

          • helenslunch@feddit.nl
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            7 months ago

            It “still exists” but user adoption is basically zero, which is the opposite goal of open standards.

            • SCB@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              7 months ago

              User adoption here is also “basically zero.”

              Lemmy is a rounding error in population versus larger sites. It’s a walled garden.

              You cannot weaken the fediverse more than the near-total lack of adoption that already exists.

              • helenslunch@feddit.nl
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                7 months ago

                User adoption here is also “basically zero.”

                Yes and there are a variety of reasons why it is that way, none of which includes being picked up by a megacorp for profit and then being dumped later after they’ve extracted all the value from it.

                • SCB@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  Assuming it is picked up and dropped, the fediverse is completely unchanged. That’s my point.

    • kpw@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      31
      arrow-down
      15
      ·
      7 months ago

      We should treat them like any other instance. If they are a good citizen of the Fediverse they stay, otherwise they will be blocked and nothing has changed.

      • shnizmuffin@lemmy.inbutts.lol
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        47
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        7 months ago

        If they are a good citizen of the Fediverse

        They haven’t been a good citizen of the internet, why would you even give them a chance?

        • Alto@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          18
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          7 months ago

          The only explanation for someone getting back in line to get kicked in the balls for the 15th time in the row is the must really like getting kicked in the balls

      • woelkchen@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        27
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        7 months ago

        Mastodon users can already block entire domains. Unless it’s legally required, there’s hardly a reason why the admins would need to take the decision away from the users.

        • Alto@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          14
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          7 months ago

          The whole point is that instance owners/admin are allowed to run their instance however they want

          • woelkchen@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            7 months ago

            The whole point is that instance owners/admin are allowed to run their instance however they want

            Absolutely. My comment wasn’t about mandating an all open policy to all instance admins. Just saying that they don’t have to make such decisions for their users. It’s different on Lemmy where per user instance blocking will only come in the next release, so for now Lemmy admins kinda have to make such decisions on the behalf of users as well.

        • kpw@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          10
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          7 months ago

          I agree. Everyone should be able to decide for themselves. My only concern is that Fediverse servers will suddenly become expensive to host because of the Threads traffic. But this would also happen with many users on many smaller instances and is not specific to Threads.

          • breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            ·
            7 months ago

            Servers pull content based on subscriptions (follows). Meta can’t push content into the Fediverse.

            • 0x1C3B00DA@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              7 months ago

              No ActivityPub is explicitly push-based. If you follow someone on a remote server, the remote server pushes their posts to your server. Meta can push content into the fediverse, but like any other user/server they can be blocked if its spammy

              • breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                7 months ago

                I think we’re talking about two different things. I’m saying that servers ultimately choose what they receive. People worry that Meta will flood Mastodon with unwanted content but content has to be invited in. Although it’s more accurate to say that users have to be invited in, like vampires, to serve content. People seem worried that federating means inviting in all the vampires.

                When users on server A follow a single user on server B, it doesn’t matter if server B has one user or ten billion, server A receives content from one user. The only way to receive all content from a server is to have at least one person following every user on the remote server.

                So Meta can’t flood Mastodon with unwanted content because you only receive content from users you explicitly ask to receive it from. You aren’t connected to the firehose when you federate with their instance.

            • brenno@lemmy.brennoflavio.com.br
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              7 months ago

              I think the point is too many users following threads users as is it more likely to find a friend there than on Fediverse for example. Which will require more compute resources and storage

          • kpw@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            8
            ·
            7 months ago

            If the admin decides not to block them it’s the users’ decision. And users can choose not to use instances who block Threads.

    • Enk1@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      7 months ago

      Right? You don’t have to join or even engage with Threads if you don’t want to. Super easy to block an instance. But this brings a massive userbase and serious support to Mastodon. I’m a huge FOSS supporter and this is how the Fediverse not only survives, but thrives and grows - buy in from big players. Otherwise, when X/Twitter inevitably dies, another proprietary app takes its place. We just have to hold them accountable and educate users that there are Fedi apps outside Threads.

    • fox2263@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      7 months ago

      Agreed. The entire point of this federation and it is being essentially burned because someone wants to join.

      I’ll use a very loose and likely wrong political analogy.

      If a right wing group says the left wing are not inclusive and blocking certain people from joining. The left wing denies this and says anyone can join. So a right wing member tries to join and the left wing says “sorry not you”.

      Let threads join. Don’t subscribe to any of their communities. Simple.

  • Scrollone@feddit.it
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    31
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    7 months ago

    Honestly? I don’t trust Meta, but I like that they’re implementing federation.

    It will allow me to follow famous people or brands that only have a Threads account through the privacy of my Mastodon/Lemmy/whatever app, so I’m not forced to use Meta’s official apps, which are famously riddled with trackers and whatnot.