Society’s got priorities wrong.

  • most car travels are 1 person or sometimes 2 person

  • the majority of car travels are quite short, less than 40km.

  • many car travels are just to get some groceries or drop of a little package or just say “hi” to someone, carrying nothing but themselves.

  • cars are fucking expensive, to buy and to maintain

  • accidents become way worse with heavier vehicles

Microcar is a valid answer to all of these, while still being sheltered from weather.

How are urban places (i’m in Belgium) with almost permanent super heavy road traffic congestion, bad climate statistics, high polution values, very limited available space left, no self-sustaining energy production and high traffic accident statistics still pooring in billions and billions in subsidies year after year into “regular” big heavy SUV-like vehicles instead of these? It’s beyond my comprehension. The only real valid reason i somewhat get is the collective scare of being in a crash and not wanting to be in the smaller vehicle. We could save the climate, we choose not to.

  • MICROLINO: 17.990 €
  • OPEL ROCKS: 8.699 €
  • CITROEN AMI: 7.790 €
  • RENAULT TWIZY: 13.000 €
  • FIAT TOPOLINO: 9.890 €

A lot of people here casually spend more on a sunday racing bike every few years for fucks sake.

  • Rayspekt@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    I get the points that you are trying to make but those micro cars are shit for the consumer for those prices. Yes, you have a small car that isn’t powered by fossil fuels, but

    • You can’t transport jack shit. I’ve sat in the Opel thingy and while it’s comfortable for the two passengers you have literally no boot.
    • If you consider one of those most likely you live in a densely populated urban area an can use public transportation as well. And one of the last things public transportation sucks, is transporting unwieldy stuff with you. And your mini car doesn’t provide a solution to this, so you have to pay a rental again.
    • Those things are waaaaayyyy to expensive for what they offer. Atm you’re paying the early adopter premium to drive in a speed restricted, range restricted, and payload restricted vehicle for 10k.

    I’ve been riding public transportation almost exclusively for the last 10 years or so and only had to consider getting a car for long distance travel and transporting shit. And at that point you’ll be better off spending 4-7k for an older station wagon than those things.

    Also I’m not entirely sure how eco friendly it is to buy a brand new mini EV rather than driving around with a 15 year old car where nothing new has to be produced. Depends for sure on the yearly mileage. Which isn’t high in my case, but you for sure won’t be driving 15000 km a year in a mini car.

    If we compare new regular and new EV? Sure, but then I’ll wait until real competitive alternatives in the low-price sector pop up.

    • AlexWIWA@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      They’re also ugly as shit, which unfortunately will affect adoption more than people care to admit. But then again, the PT Cruiser and Nissan Cube sold, so maybe I’m wrong.

        • brokenlcd@feddit.it
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          2 months ago

          I knew someone was eventually gonna name that monster; I didn’t know that people ouside of italy where aware of it. You know what’s the worst part? It’s actually very reliable, and drives decently; it’s just as ugly as the plague.

        • BastingChemina@slrpnk.net
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          2 months ago

          My parents had one when I was a kid, the second version was not to ugly and the interior was crazy comfortable for a family car.

          It had 3 full front seat and 3 full seat in the back too.

      • Prandom_returns@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        Christ, the arguments…

        “It not pretty. I liky BIIIG car, angry headlights, grrr”

        I can’t believe I still have to explain this to grown ups, people have different tastes. Especially when it comes to car design.

        If there was a “best looking car” there would be 1 design on the market.

        • AlexWIWA@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          Very few people in the US would buy this car. We can look at how unpopular EVs were until Tesla made them “cool.”

          Like or not, outside of car and anti-car communities, most people only want what’s trendy and these aren’t trendy. I appreciate that people in this community like the car, but we’re not exactly a majority in the US, and I live in the US so that’s the market I care about

          You’d have a much easier time funding mass transit here than getting the average American into one of these.

          • Prandom_returns@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            Ah fuck, I keep foegetting that the world = US. My bad. Thanks for representing “the average american”.

            Saying “These are ugly, that’s why no one’s going to buy them” is rage-bating.

            The american fragile-masculinity-compensator-3000-supertruck enjoyers might hate these, but they’re just a minute subset of a subset of the drivers in the world.

            • AlexWIWA@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              Feel better? Any more strawmen you’d like to dress me up as?

              It’s very humorous that you think I’m talking about large trucks as the alternative to these micro cars when I’m talking four door sedans and wagons; 4dr wagons are the most popular body style in Europe btw. Seems I’m right about the US market and the European market too. Best to not act holier than thou when your market isn’t clamoring for these vehicles either.

              • Prandom_returns@lemm.ee
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                2 months ago

                Hold up, you think a 5+seater monster is an alternative to a 2-seater microcar?

                And you think that because the 2-seaters “are ugly” , people buy 5-door wagons? You’re high, right?

                What is this logic, jfk…

                • AlexWIWA@lemmy.ml
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                  2 months ago

                  Your logic is that people outside of the US will buy these. Yet they sell like shit in Europe. No, you brought up trucks. I and the person I responded to we talking about sedans and wagons. Fuck off troll

      • errer@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        A study I had read suggested that if you have a reasonable gas car already (e.g. sedan not a gas guzzler), the impact of driving your gas car on the environment is equal to the production of a new EV if you drive the gas car 50k miles or less in its remaining lifetime. My secondary car barely gets driven a few thousand miles a year, so it is better for the environment to just keep it running than swapping it out for an EV.

    • freebee@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      2 months ago

      Most people on most trips a vehicle carries jack shit. When you need that, you rent a larger vehicle.

      Yes, urban area. No, public transport is shite. Very poor, very unreliable. It’s either car or bike for most people.

      The here abundant big luxury cars ain’t cheap either. A porsche cayenne is not at all a rarity here. I’m quite sure it’s not the financial reason being the big one holding wider adoption of microcars back.

      The government subsidizes the purchase of new vehicles in different ways here. It might not be economical to you at this point, but it all trickles down the market in 5-10 years time and then it will be very cheap and very available bottom of the second hand market if it’s what’s being supported with subsidies in the upper end of the market. For society as a whole in terms of eco friendliness, it for sure does make more sense people buying small new EV instead of big new luxury SUV-EV.

      • Rayspekt@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Man, your argumentation is all over the place. Adressing your points in the same order:

        How often do you expect a person to resort to rental cars when they already invest 10k in a micro car with all running costs on top? A normal person that spends that amount of money doesn’t want to pay additional 50-200 Euro per trip for 5-10 times a year.

        Generalizing that public transportation is shit doesn’t cut it if you want make a serious point. There are A LOT of people that could use public transport with minor habitual changes.

        I’m talking to you that micro cars are too expensive compared to old station wagons and you jump to “big luxury cars are expensive”? Yeah no shit, Porsche drivers are for sure the general population and what micro cars are aimed at lmao. It is the financial reason for people with normal incomes: Nobody pays 10k for a glorified scooter with a roof.

        it for sure does make more sense people buying small new EV instead of big new luxury SUV-EV

        Yeah no shit, maybe you read my post again and see that I didn’t refute this point.

        It might not be economical to you at this point, but it all trickles down the market in 5-10 years time and then it will be very cheap and very available

        You do you. I’ll wait until proper low-end cars are out that are worth paying 10-15k. Shouldn’t take that long now that China has claimed this market and Europe and the US scramble to push out cheaper EV-cars instead of only selling bloated luxury EVs.

        • AlexWIWA@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          Yeah $10k can get a used Lexus in good shape. These things are just nowhere near cheap enough to not be able to carry groceries and kids. It’s the reason I never bought a smart car. $30k was just way too high for what it could do.

          Be better off investing in mass transit, like you said

          Them suggesting renting cars is also not super viable in most places. It takes at least thirty minutes to fill out the paper work and I don’t know anyone willing to do that for their weekly grocery trip

          • Rayspekt@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Them suggesting renting cars is also not super viable in most places. It takes at least thirty minutes to fill out the paper work and I don’t know anyone willing to do that for their weekly grocery trip

            Yes this comes even on top. I did use a mix of train and rental cars for the last few years and man does it suck to regularly have to go through the rental process. Even if they don’t try to rip you off on old damages to get your deposit, paperworks and also having to drive to the hub is so inefficient.

            • sudneo@lemm.ee
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              2 months ago

              In cities car sharing works OK (no time for paperwork etc.), but it still is relatively expensive.

              At least in Europe is quite common I believe.

        • freebee@sh.itjust.worksOP
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          2 months ago

          It is really cheap to have stuff delivered to your doorstep, by the way. You often don’t need to rent a big vehicle, what you need is to get something brought to your home.

          Public transport just really is shit here. I’m sorry, it is. It sucks and everyone knows it. It’s used by underage pupils, poors and disabled people. Company is called DeLijn, you can look it up if you want to. It’s dirt cheap to use it, yet still very few people use it. It’s way too unreliable. Busses don’t show up unreliable.

          I’m talking to you that micro cars are too expensive compared to old station wagons and you jump to “big luxury cars are expensive”? Yeah no shit, Porsche drivers are for sure the general population and what micro cars are aimed at lmao. It is the financial reason for people with normal incomes: Nobody pays 10k for a glorified scooter with a roof.

          There are extensive subsidy regulations in place here, for example “salariswagen” with which employers can almost taxfree pay employees with a car in stead of money. This enforces an already strong way in which the “top of the new market” trickles down to the second hand market in 5-10 years. The cayenne is just to point out that this is not a poor region. Many people are wealthy enough for 8000 € to not be a very big spend. The government does subsidize other large SUV-like vehicle through this salary-car scheme. That trickles down very much. After 3 to 5 years of leasing the cars get second hand sold for still a decent price. 5 years later again. Another sale further down the road, it’s the station car you’ld currently rather buy than the microcar. The vehicles the government chooses to subsidize are a big influence in what will be available here in the second hand market in 10 years time from now. So yes, subsidizing small efficient cars over big SUV-style vehicles does make ecological sense.

          • Hugh_Jeggs@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            Mate, this sub is full of yanks who are so blinkered in their worldview they have absolutely no clue how things are in other countries

            Each point you make will be met with “Yeah but where I’m from…”

            I mentioned once that everyone I know has a car but not one of them has an engine bigger than 1.6 litre. Stupid cunts called me a liar lol

            They’re selfish cunts and will argue that black is white because of it. Let’s keep our adorable microcars for ourselves 😊

    • Aux@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Why would you transport anything yourself when delivery from most shops is free? Doesn’t make any sense to waste time and money.

    • Humanius@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Sometimes people do need a car, and if they do I would prefer it to be a small little thing like this rather than something larger.
      These kinds of car are quite popular in Amsterdam, for instance

          • crispy_kilt@feddit.de
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            2 months ago

            I want my country to have 1/10 the bicycle infrastructure of the Netherlands. We’re in the dark ages by comparison.

            Still better than France or Germany though, at least we got that going for us

    • freebee@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      2 months ago

      Metro unfortunately isn’t a solution in urban sprawled, urban planning disaster Flanders. It’s dense yet too spread out. Metro is good for very dense urban cores like Brussels. But it’s not the one big end all problems solution. Metro is part of what cities need, but not the only thing.

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Metro unfortunately isn’t a solution in urban sprawled, urban planning disaster

        It is, because it creates the nodes of transit around which higher density building can be built.

        Urban sprawl is a consequence of poor mass transit, not a cause of it.

        • freebee@sh.itjust.worksOP
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          2 months ago

          Here among other reasons it’s a historic consequence of few building regulations for 150 years combined with a dominant Christian party 150y actively trying to keep as many people as possible sprawled out in villages around cities because they thought masses moving to the cities would turn them into revolutionary heretic communists.

          • crispy_kilt@feddit.de
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            2 months ago

            would turn them into revolutionary heretic communists

            I mean, that’s just another advantage of having a metro

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            I think its more of a modern contrivance than that. The Robert Moses plan for New York was enormously profitable for real estate developers. There’s definitely a certain nostalgic element to the pastiche of smaller and more remote towns. But the modern suburbs system is far more about urban segregation and real estate commercialization (mega-malls, movie theaters, gas stations, etc) than economic evangelicalism.

      • Swedneck
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        2 months ago

        i mean that just sounds like stockholm lol, also if you can’t quite justify a metro then you just build a baby metro, otherwise called light rail (or fuck it, actual tramlines)

          • Swedneck
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            2 months ago

            looking at the map, light rail seems like it should work fine? It’s not that sprawly, there are pretty clear urban clusters that you could just slap some rail onto the roads going between.

            i think you’re presuming the transport has to be profitable? which obviously will only ever justify some subway lines in metropoles and train lines connecting major cities.

            • freebee@sh.itjust.worksOP
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              2 months ago

              No it’s just always a battle for space. The linear settlements the old roads run through are wide enough for 1 lane in each direction, 2 narrow sidewalks and perhaps a narrow cycle path. Enter tram: it’s either stuck in traffic with the cars or they have to decide to ban cars and no longer serve the hundreds of driveways on a route, politicians don’t have the balls for that, not even the green ones. I wish they would.

  • norimee@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Looks like we are back to the 1950’s and the time of the “Smooch bubble” BMW Isetta. I always loved the look of this car.