I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
Unless someones pronouns are in their username they’re getting a “they” from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain’t checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.
i always just use they/them as a default until i know the correct pronouns because it’s the most universally genetic anyway :3
Personally I use they/them until I get corrected on it. It’s my default.
It being my default of course means that a lot of the time I’ll keep using it even after being corrected. That’s not from a position of intolerance though, it’s from a position of habit.
And also given the amount of people I engage with online I’m not going to remember every person I interact with, especially given how sparsely I actually respond to people and my response time to people.
Basically y’all are a field of ever changing faces I’ll likely never see again let alone IRL, I’m going to stick to they/them for 99% of our interactions.
what about, it? though a issue would be sexism as people could use it to call women objects.
That’s a fair problem, Lemmy and the mobile apps need a feature where you can see peoples pronouns beside their names. Voyager doesn’t even let me see anything besides someones username and instance, even on the profile page so I can’t even look for their pronouns even if I wanted
We got names for that. It is hard adjusting to nonbinary people in a language that does not support nongendered pronouns but names and nicknames are sociacialy accepted and carry the same respect as a correct pronoun.
You could use Voyager’s user tagging feature to tag people with their pronouns
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This is a problem for less than 1% of society.
Yes, and? So if a minority is small enough then it’s okay to be an asshole to them?
And there’s 8 billion people on earth, 1% of that is still 80 million people that somehow don’t deserve respect?
The incredibly overwhelming majority of people do not care at all about theirs or others pronouns
Try calling a grown-ass man a ‘she’ and see how quickly he starts caring.
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Bisexual and transphobic, what a goddamn shame.
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As far as I’m aware more than 99% of people have pronouns and most of them would prefer not being called by the wrong ones
Which is why “they” and “them” and “you” exist. If this WAS a big concern for the majority then you would already have pronouns in all the apps instead of not a single one. The fact it’s not there is the proof you need that most people don’t think about this until it’s brought up by you guys.
You might be a cis agender person considering how you talk about gender. Fascinating stuff imo.
Thank you for that link. I might have learned something new about myself.
Happy to be of service!
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I know suddenly being told your experience isn’t universal might be scary. But cis people do in fact care about their pronouns. If you don’t, well, I’m sorry to say it, but you are part of what you perceive as less than 1%. Which btw, is most likely a lot more than 1%
The latest numbers coming out of the US say 5% of young adults identify as trans. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/
It’s way over 1%, and it’s gonna get even higher.
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Hold on, I’m she/they.
Now can we discuss this FASCINATING topic??? Do we think the one ring would hold multiple ring value? Would Sonic turn invisible or just absorb it? How does the ring affect sonic if it is absorbed? What happens if he collects 100 One Rings? I have so many questions.
(adorable little Timmy voice) “He would turn into Sonic dot E X E and kill us all!!”
Battle Network intensifies
Holy crap! A
Megamanreference???Yeah… Pretty much my whole childhood Special Interest.
Cool profile picture!
People remember the existence of the battle network megaman games, not just the platformers!?
I saw a meme about that game 😅
What about would happen if the rings forged for man, dwarves, and elves (19 in all) were collected by Sonic along with the One Ring? Sonic could be like… a super ring wraith.
Then we put the Chaos Emeralds in the mix, and things get extra spicy.
It really depends on which sonic we are talking about, SEGA Genius Sonic, Sonic Adventures Sonic, one of the western animation Sonics, Anime Sonic, Live Action Sonic? If it’s Archie Comics Sonic then the power scale goes right out the window.
live action Sonic
or
Is the One Ring even categorically different from power rings?
blahaj.zone is better about it, but much of Lemmy even just defaults to “he”
This is the only reasonable way to handle this situation. I’m all about making sure people are comfortable, but making-up words and then getting offended when people don’t use them properly is bonkers. I truly don’t mean to offend anyone, but this is getting out of hand.
I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like “umm actually you can’t police my speech and umm pronoun bad” and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.
the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.
Won’t somebody think of the transphobic cishet men?
They’re the real oppressed!
pet pet
Ada is legit one of the best moderators I’ve seen in my 25 years on the internet.
Like moths to a light bulb, it would be funny if the banned folks’ behavior wasn’t steeped in hatred
The admin’s chosen examples, in this thread, include demanding people use a slur, if that’s what some rando insists you insert, instead of the “they” that should work for any human being.
It’s really fucking difficult to argue ‘that absolutist or-else seems like a poor idea’ without sounding wishy-washy - or catching a boot in the ass.
look the whole point of this thread is that if you didn’t want to respect somebody’s pronouns then just don’t interact with them or report them if you think they are genuinely trolling, not encourage them. if you don’t do that so your giving trolls what they want and hurting trans people who do identify with those pronouns.
Coskiis’ stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.
Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.
Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.
questopm for coskii: i has 3 character name, would coskii pick to using just max or he hims orboth meows? a lso woild coskii use they thems for max ? (like if didnt know max preferres hehims)
For Max, I would use he/hims, they/thems, or whatever other pronouns Max would prefer. Max is a shortcut in and of itself. Maxwell, Maximilian, Maxine, or Maximus can all be Max.
If Max were to decide that Maxs’ pronouns were Maxillaries/Maximilleficint, I would at that point likely just refer to Max as Max. As at that point I feel that what has been made are no longer pronouns, but situational proper nouns.
By a much more extreme example, if Max has a flowchart/spreadsheet of pronouns that are time/date sensative, such as changing pronouns according to the current astrological sign + day of the week/phase of the moon, Max is being called Max.
I know Coskii meant it as a counter example, but time dependant pronouns kinda kicks ass ngl
I agree it would be hard as hell to use and I’d probably default to some shortcut too tbh, but it’s a cool concept.
They certainly do have an appeal, and ideally it’s fine. Realistically though there’s a mental limit to the number of those flowcharts a single person can be expected to learn and follow.
I could see a high fantasy setting where an entire culture followed a single chart and it would be fine… But at the same time I’ve literally seen players fail to start a sentence with their own name and title (for court record keeping reasons).
How do you reconcile this with people wanting to be called longhand versions of their names? ex: John wants to be called Johnathan, we would respect that, but if John says their pronouns are Johnathan/ Johnithian, would you still call them John?
I understand the question you are attempting to ask. However within this example if John decided that Johnathon/Johnithian are what John would like as pronouns, but somehow is simultaneously fine with being called John as a name… I believe you would find most people would use John rather than similar and longer names as pronouns (to avoid confusion mostly). If John prefers to be referred to as Johnathon, then most people would follow that or split off entirely and pick up a nickname.
Idealogically anyone should be able to use whatever pronouns they’d like with no rules, limits, or caveats.
Realistically (for now/me), my social interactions are not high enough on my layers of priority, particularly with new groups, that I would consider the need to commit most or really any of anyones’ pronouns to memory. As using those pronouns would require me to speak about someone other than myself, to someone who is not the direct recipient of those words. Being the hermit that I am, my comments throughout nearly the entirety of my time on Lemmy or other online social spaces reaching back to nearly the beginning of my time online does not need or use third person pronouns an absolutely vast amount of those interactions in that time.
As a completely off topic anecdote, the only time I can remember using third person pronouns semi often was while on a forum for the original halo game in which I’d attempt to decipher the horrendous typos and extra keystrokes of people I can only assume were younger children asking questions about the game.
thamks coskii!! meow :3
If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.
Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.
i don’t get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that
it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn’t be more complicated than that
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the “one joke” conservatives have (“hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter”).
Obviously I can’t say for sure that’s what is happening, but I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I’d never purposely insult this person by calling them “him” or “her,” but they’ll remain a “they” to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with “neopronouns” (as far as I understand it).
I know a few neopronoun users and some are fine with they/them, some are just worn down into accepting they/them, and some really do not like they/them
It doesn’t really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it’s not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow “discredit” me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn’t also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
I’m really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that’s just not the same thing and I don’t believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
I’m sure everyone will tell me how I’m wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, “litter boxes in schools” things in many people’s minds. It does more harm than good.
Seriously. I’m fine with neopronouns that relate to the actual gender binary or spectrum. Something that says you’re male, female, somewhere in between, some oscillating state along the spectrum, or even a pronoun saying you don’t exist along the spectrum at all. But the key distinction here is that any neopronoun must relate back to the male/female gender spectrum. Otherwise you’re not describing gender, you are describing personality traits. Every personality trait and characteristic is not a gender.
I don’t quite understand your point, how can a pronoun denote that one is ‘somewhere in between male and female’ or even express more complex state as in your example? The idea looks impossible to implement to me, an example would definitely help
The umbrella term for this is nonbinary, and people often use they, or if they use neopronouns it’s something like xir.
The parent commenter’s point is that nonbinary identities typically relate back to the conventional gender spectrum in some way, whereas dragon does not and seems more like a fursona or character trait thing.
This is not made easier by the fact that “dragon” is a proper noun, and in fiction there are male and female dragons.
Yeah, when we get this specific example it does seem off. But if I were to choose some invented pronoun to show that I identify as ¾ male the pronoun itself will not convey that meaning even if it literally would be th¾y, that’s what my question of what are the examples was about
so we’re back to gender being indistinguishable from biologial sex, and there being only two settings with a option for some mixing of the parts on occasion? every single fucking time gender comes up we end up back here.
This “summary” you have proposed is not an accurate represntation of what the other person in this thread is arguing.
I like how you used arguments that were/are used by T-exclusive LGB folks to dehumanize a different marginalized group and Lemmy users just ate it up.
It makes a mockery of real [gender issues | issues homosexuals deal with]. I fully support anyone who wants to [be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders | live openly with their partner of the same sex]. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe [they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy | can just change their sex to the opposite].
You even used the “they’re just mentally ill” argument against them, you don’t even try to hide that you’re just riding a wave of what’s socially accepted already and what’s not yet.
I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders.
Can you list all these genders you accept so I know which ones are pure fantasy for you? Y’know, mere twenty years ago most people wouldn’t say more than two of them.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real
“Men” and “women” are just social roles made up in the Stone Age and changed somewhat during the centuries of human history, that are just so happened to be bound to our genitals. There’s nothing real about it.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community.
Are we politicians or what? Why should we make our identity ‘presentable’ for bigots?
Men are as made up as unicorns, but we all respect men’s gender identities, and we should.
What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
Good thing no one asked you.
i could identify as a unicorn if i want and for you to think you need to fight against that makes you a bad person. Who are you to say the self images others can or cannot have?
If you think you can just identify as something at will, you don’t understand gender. That attitude is an insult to the entire transgender community. Gender identity is not some fun feather you just stick in your cap. It’s an immutable trait. You don’t choose your gender identity, you simply have one.
That’s maybe the most helpful argument I read here, I think I should reconsider what neopronouns are about.
If you think that gender is immutable, you are the one with the misunderstanding around gender. What do you think trans people change when they transition if not their gender?
Gender is a performance. You absolutely can change it or choose not to perform it altogether. Please educate yourself.
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The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It’s because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.
In other words, the correct response to someone demanding you call them what is almost certainly a troll neopronouns is to block them. Or, the equivalent in the real world is, “I’m not going to misgender you. I’m going to tell you to fuck off and never talk to me again. If that really is your gender, I guess I don’t like associating with people of that gender. Goodbye.”
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people
Ok, lets say that this happens.
That doesn’t mean that the correct response is to invalidate neopronouns. If that’s literally the goal of a troll, then saying “You’re a troll, I’m not going to use your pronouns” is literally what they want.
But I will also suggest you read up on Isabel Fall, to see why even the attack helicopter pronoun meme isn’t always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them
What’s the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says “hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack” and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What’s a desirable outcome? What’s an undesirable outcome?
I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
I wouldn’t say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that’s more because I just haven’t thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people’s possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that’s literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
I’m sure people will tell me how I’m wrong.
Pronouns are a way of helping us find our identity and sharing it with the world. They tell other people who we are, and our relationship with our identity. Some people use them as an act of empowerment and reclamation. Some people use them to actively break down the normalisation of the gender binary as the default/only way of thinking about gender. Other people use them because it’s just the best way they have of describing their internal experience.
Which is a lot of words to say that you don’t know why someone is using neopronouns or what their intent is. All you can use is their actions. And if what they do is troll and stir up trouble with their actions, report that, because that’s the bit that matters, not the fact that they’re using pronouns you find challenging, which may be the very point.
it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
You’ve got work to do on your understanding of how hatred works. No one hates us because we used a weird pronoun. They hate us because they’ve been taught to hate us, and ultimately, it doesn’t matter what we do or how perfect we are, they will find an excuse to manifest that hate.
There is no such thing as a person who would have supported us, but choses not to, because they don’t like unusual pronouns. There are people who support us and are uncomfortable with unusual pronouns, but someone who drops their support over that, was going to drop their support anyway over something, once they found an excuse that let them tell themselves that they’re not the bad guy in their story.
You can not win over hate by being on your best behaviour and existing on the terms of people who hate us. It has never worked and never will.
No, I am sure in a case by case basis you are right and that seems like an exception to the rule though. I think the spirit of the topic is that we should just use pronouns on this instance even more common neopronouns like xir. My personal opinion is I think “they” is probably a fine blanket term for all gender neutrality, but that will likely “other” them into the bucket of “they”… so I can see how this is a tricky situation.
To call this a leftist thing is interesting though. We are discussing humans, not politics. I didn’t bring it up. My acceptance of all people other than me drives me to leftism, not the other way around.
Honestly, a general rule of thumb"act in good faith" is probably enough. Not hard to enforce and usually a small enough offense is enough to deter most.
People here are really overcomplicating this.
Step 1: Treat everyone with respect, including respecting their communication preferences. If it becomes obvious they’re not being serious and/or respectful themselves (ball/sack, dog/shit), then simply disengage and report. Their bad behavior doesn’t justify anyone else’s bad behavior in response.
Step 2: If there’s only suspicion their requests/preferences are somehow a form of trolling, harassment, or the like, either…
2.1: Respectfully ask non-accusatory questions for clarification, then return to step 1
Or
2.2: Disengage, report to a mod, and let them handle this shitRinse and repeat.
There are two overwhelmingly likely results to this little workflow.
- A troll is treated with kindness and respect until it’s found they’re trolling, after which engagement ceases and mods have to deal with their shit. Remember: trolls get off on watching other people’s outrage. No response = no outrage = an unsatisfying trolling session.
- Someone who is not trolling but is having a difficult time being understood is treated with kindness and respect.
I don’t care for neopronouns, but it also doesn’t matter what I think. If it’s REALLY a problem for me, like that person who’s gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won’t refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person’s gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)
I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn’t make that person my god, and I shouldn’t be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don’t follow. I may choose to follow other religions’ conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person’s pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.
I don’t think using someone’s preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.
I’ve met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I’ve also met people who think “he” and “she” pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone’s god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say “My god doesn’t make mistakes”, and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.
Your last point raises a good question.
Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don’t capitalise Them?
Me omw to make all of my pronouns the full transcript of the Bee Movie
Actually, would that be covered under this rule? Like I would be trolling if I did that, but under a true all-acceptance policy you couldn’t selectively not use those pronouns
I think at that point one can choose to word sentences to not use pronouns at all
I’ve spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?
There’s a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently “dragonfucker”, who insists on the neopronoun “drag”, and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.
Dragon Rider, actually, not dragonfucker. And drag isn’t mad that you misremembered.
Some Lemmy clients show handle instead of username, that’s why some users may never have seen ‘Drag Rider (drag)’ at all
I haven’t seen them take offense very often
How dare you call drag ‘them’!!! >:(
😂😂😂 just kidding, drag doesn’t act like that. Thank you for sticking up for drag.
I love for drag to have the courage and space to express dragself, so it’s always heartbreaking when people are hating on drag for no reason instead of just engaging with the content of drag’s comments and having meaningful discussions. Stay true to dragself and don’t let others make drag change. Thank you to the instance admins for standing up for drag.
Except they don’t eagerly take offense to being mispronouned. Most of the time, when I’ve seen it, they don’t even say anything.
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If you think respecting neopronouns is a horrible idea, you picked the wrong instance
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is this a real comparison? are you doing a “slippery slope” thing?
how EXACTLY is calling drag by their preferred term going to pave the way for pedophiles to take over lgbtq spaces?
There’s no slope, I don’t think people who are attracted to minors should be accepted or validated, and making that an instance rule makes me deeply uncomfortable.
I’m just sick of seeing Minor Attracted People being blindly accepted into our spaces.
We have to draw the line somewhere.
Edit: I literally don’t care about the dragonfucker, dragons aren’t real and aren’t children.
i don’t know how or why you wandered in here, but you’re the only person taking about whatever it is you’re talking about
You are this close to a ban for your ongoing conflation of paedophilia and neopronouns. Your question was also answered in my initial post. Pronouns are to be respected. Behaviour is actionable.
Do you know what a Minor Attracted Person is?
Will Minor Attracted People be welcome in this community?
I’m going to make this simple. There is no ability for a minor to consent, and non consensual behaviour of any sort is not welcome on this instance.
And nor are you for repeated conflation of the two topics.
A user called drag can sometimes rub people the wrong way. Sometimes it’s drag’s actions. Sometimes it’s the fact drag refers to dragself with pronouns using various permutations of drag.
The former is a valid reason for contention. The latter isn’t.
I always thought Drag was speaking in the third person. Did I misunderstand something?Edit: yes, I didDrag does both, as demonstrated in this very thread.
This is more of a public service announcement style of post than a deeply intentioned ‘after incident response’ post.
While I’m sure there have been plenty of incidents based on some of the other comments, there hasn’t been some singular massive event to cause this to happen. If anything it’s more of a reminder that one purpose of blahaj.zone is for inclusivity and acceptance. Excluding people because of some indirect words is not the goal.
Thanks for clarifying.
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ahh yes calling trans people who you think didn’t do it the right way idiots, telling them their concerns aren’t valid, and that their existence undermines the “real” trans people, all classic ways of supporting people trying to express their gender identity.
Your reading comprehension needs work.
and your respect for trans people needs work <3
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In most settings I would be inclined to agree, but in specific settings, like the community this was originally posted in, acceptance and comfort is the point.
You may have seen this from World, but it was posted on blahaj.
In this particular instance, it seems less like you were approached on the street and told to speak differently, and more like some people were having a meeting and you walked in and told them to stop making a scene.
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If xey really want a closed meeting, there’s an option to make a community local only.
Some of us are likely to wander into some other blahaj posts like we wandered into this one so it’s good to know.
Excellent analogy at the end there.
Maybe reading the room isn’t your strong suit. This post is a position statement by an instance admin on its meta community, not a request for soapboxing from other instances’ users.
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Here’s a neat trick: if you don’t want to engage with someone, just block that person. It costs 0€ and the rest of us don’t have to endure a days-long quarrel.
One of the smaller benefits of these sorts of announcements is that they bring out people that just aren’t worth knowing from other instances who all but shout “I’m a piece of shit idiot!! Block me!!”. And that really helps save time.
That’s what I do. I’ve got absolutely nothing against probably most of the people I’ve blocked. Just at a certain point if I see the same account over and over posting stuff I don’t really vibe with I’ll block them and just let the ones that do enjoy that stuff have at it.
Side note: I especially love the ones that will like rage comment in places like YT/TikTok on “woke” stuff for example then cry that the algorithm keeps showing them more like it. Like… My Brother in Christ, you made the sandwich.
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You know what’s even worse for connecting with society? Actively discrediting other peoples existence within the queer community.
This is the exact same bullshit as “LGB drop the T” except it’s one step down. Neopronoun users hurt the whole queer community as much as trans people in general: they don’t, they’re a part of it.
I respect all people pronouns, but real quick here’s a list of people’s pronouns I don’t respect -op
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oops misread your comment.
sounds like you just don’t respect people unless it’s convenient for you.
(that’s not really respect)
careful hehe ‘op’ in the context would be understood by most to mean the OP of the post, aka Ada. i caught what you mean before i took any action but that probably explains a good chunk of the downvotes ur getting :)
You cannot claim to respect someone if you can’t recognise the simple reality of their gender and it’s expression. Assuming people using neopronouns are making it the centre of attention is just you being transphobic and a dick, be better.
You can’t demand I change my language for you
You’re admitting that you prefer being transphobic over putting in the minimum amount of effort
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I don’t wanna because “it’s a pain”. Yep, you’re not an ally, you’re just being transphobic because that’s easier for you.
Being an ally takes effort. We have to unlearn these things in order to make the world better, if the rest of us can do it then so can you. You have been programmed by a patriarchal society to resist change for a reason.
Your intentions are valiant. Can I ask for clarification with one section to ensure I don’t error within this instance’s rules?
A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling.
We’ve probably all seen the “one joke” of transphobes/nonbinaryphobes attempting a parody of preferred pronouns/neopronouns by choosing arbitrary or intentionally harmful terms. This link contains some examples of what I’m referring to:
Content warning: transphobia/nonbinaryphobia/misgendering, annoying visual glitch
In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise? As an example from the linked video, if I refer to Ted Cruz on this instance, must I use the neopronouns kiss/my/ass to be within the rules? (assuming Ted Cruz had yet to state a revision of pronouns)
In a more extreme case, let’s say somebody named User1 genuinely uses [neopronoun 1]/[neopronoun 2]/[neopronoun 3], which we understand to be totally fine. If a troll account named User2 joined this instance with undisclosed malicious intent and stated that their pronouns were [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real], should the users/admins/mods each take that all on face value and refer to User2 with [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real]?
In short, do the rules require that we refer to someone by the neopronouns that they state even if the surrounding context strongly suggests that they are a transphobic/nonbinaryphobic troll and that their statement of their pronouns is disingenuous and intended to be a harmful ridicule to transgender and nonbinary people?
When I see that somebody uses neopronouns and they appear to be in earnest, I respect and adhere to that and I appreciate that you do too. I do worry that there may arise some trolls who misuse our benevolent intentions and who attempt to mock and insult us by taking advantage of generous good faith and ultimately make things worse for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to address this and watching out for everybody.
You don’t need to use any pronouns to block and report.
Exactly this
In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise?
If that person is trolling, then report their behaviour, not their pronouns. The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. And don’t interact with them in the mean time. If their goal is invalidating the idea of neopronouns, the correct response isn’t for you to invalidate the use of neopronouns as a result of their actions.
But even “attack helicopter” and the like… If you’re not familiar with it, look up the story of Isabel Fall. She was almost driven to suicide, she changed her name, and may even have detransitioned as a result of the fallout she received from a story she wrote about the attack helicopter pronouns. Her intentions were good, it was an honest act of reclamation, but people were so upset at the mere idea of her story, that her own community turned on her. Her story looked like the story a troll might have written. But critically, it wasn’t a story written by a troll, it was a story written by a trans person trying to find power in a slur that had been levelled against her community.
So until I can sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy, the only thing we can act on is actions. And using neopronouns, even unusual and challenging ones, isn’t a trolling action by itself. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.
The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.
Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion. I obviously cannot source other comments that may have been deleted or removed:
“it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it”
“My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general… I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.” Continued “(also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.”
And here are 10 modlog remarks by your instance’s mods pertaining to the contextual behavior of the same user. There are additional modlog remarks by mods of other instances to similar effect. Please do take a look through them all:
2x: Banned: reason: Trolling
Banned: reason: history of misgendering and encouraging suicide
4x Banned: reason: Encouraging suicide, bad faith accusations, moderator harassment. Not Appealable
Banned: reason: encouraging suicide
Banned: reason: History of encouraging suicide
Removed Comment: reason: Advocating violence, encouraging suicide
Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned (edit: clarification: unbanned from the instance). As admin, have you scrutinized your users’ and mods’ listed concerns over this apparent repeat offender prior to now? Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions? I do not expect you to “sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy”, but do you distrust the acuity of your userbase and modteams over and over again? If the user is a troll, you are doing exactly what they want you to do; if the user is not a troll, many people have taken measures to avoid hostility from them. Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?
You will get trolls on this instance. You will get trolls anywhere online. It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.
I had already blocked this user who knows how long ago. Their behavior doesn’t affect me anymore. I’m also not part of a demographic that needs this instance. Go ahead and ban me for speaking out for those who do need this instance. But this user —and any other users whom the admin team shies away from calling trolls— they will affect the new people who come to this instance who do need a safe place, and those new users will be deterred from here by the hostility and unfettered trolls that are tolerated.
Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion.
None of that is “contextual behaviour”. It’s literally just people upset by pronouns they find discomforting. Once you remove “Using pronouns I don’t like” as a reason, there is nothing else to those posts.
Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned.
Drag was banned from 196 by community mods
Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions?
We have reports, a matrix channel and DMs.
Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?
I haven’t seen evidence of other bad behaviour that warrants an instance ban. Drag has stirred up drama, deliberately so, and has received community bans as a result, and I support the rights of the community mods to make that choice. But I’ve seen no evidence of genuine attempts to encourage others to suicide, or ongoing deliberate misgendering, or anything else that warrants an instance ban. I’ve seen many accusations of such, but I’ve not seen any evidence behind the accusations.
If I’m missing some, please drop me a DM or the like.
It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.
A queer instance that gatekeeps queer folk isn’t hospitable, protective or empathic.
I am well aware that trolls can slip through and try and stir up drama. I believe that it’s worth the risk, because the cost of gatekeeping gender diverse folks self expression isn’t a price I’m willing to pay to be troll free. I’d rather the odd troll slip through the cracks and get dealt with than default to gatekeeping.
None of that is “contextual behaviour”. It’s literally just people upset by pronouns they find discomforting. Once you remove “Using pronouns I don’t like” as a reason, there is nothing else to those posts.
No. Your paragraph is wholly false and you are making these claims in bad faith. I cannot read you the user comments and spell out their meanings. You act with a prejudice that people can only take umbrage with this user because they use neopronouns and you willfully and selectively reject any claims of impropriety that the user may have committed elsewhere.
yet they remain unbanned.
Drag was banned from 196 by community mods
I meant from unbanned from the instance. I’ve edited my comment for clarity.
I’ve seen no evidence of genuine attempts to encourage others to suicide, or ongoing deliberate misgendering, or anything else that warrants an instance ban. I’ve seen many accusations of such, but I’ve not seen any evidence behind the accusations.
So those are instance bannable offenses? Is there a full list beyond just in the instance sidebar? Here are some removed comments from the modlog by the user:
Advocating for suicide/murder: “If you’re planning on killing yourself, go buy a gun and take a red hat with you. Drag is serious.”
Explicitly advocating for murder/violence: “Buy a gun. Shoot a red hat. Violence is the answer.”
After cyberstalking and harassing a lemmy.world mod to disrespect the mod’s daughter’s pronouns: “You previously said that you always use gender neutral pronouns to refer to other people. In order to help you with that goal, drag would like to point out that you just used a “she” pronoun, so that you can edit it to a “they” and maintain the standard you set for yourself.“
Racism: “Drag thinks Germans just like genocide in general.”
Advocating for bestiality: “Drag likes dragon dick and doesn’t have a problem with anybody who does. That’s clearly some kind of non-dragon-fucking person. Whoever they are, they suck. Love is love and loving dragons is okay. Drag doesn’t have a problem with sucking any kind of cock, as long as it’s consensual.”
Some mods also believe this user to be a new account by a troll named droneright. I’m not going to link to every comment and post that still stands that points to the gestalt of the troll’s deception. It’s not gatekeeping to scrutinize somebody’s actions and determine that they are spitting in your face and telling you that it’s raining.
You are being trolled. The user has carefully curated elements of absurdity and inanity separate from a gender identity/expression with the intent to form a mocking caricature of queer and queer-inclusive people and to ruin their safe spaces. Read the comments and read between the lines elsewhere. A server admin needs to have the reading literacy and internet literacy to see this miles before it has gotten to this point.
I’d rather the odd troll slip through the cracks and get dealt with than default to gatekeeping.
You will find your instance overrun with trolls that make the experience intolerable. Other instances will defederate from your instance to avoid the abundance of trolls that you will host. The people who need an inclusive community will lose it.
You act with a prejudice that people can only take umbrage with this user because they use neopronouns and you willfully and selectively reject any claims of impropriety that the user may have committed elsewhere.
I have explicitly acknowledged drag deliberately created drama in 196, was banned by the 196 mods, and I support the mods right to make such bans.
What I’ve said is that I haven’t seen evidence of anything warranting an entire instance ban. I’ve seen people talk about it a lot, but I’ve not actually seen the evidence myself, and given the ire that drag has stirred up in people, I’m going to need to see it before I act on it.
Other instances will defederate from your instance to avoid the abundance of trolls that you will host.
drag is not based on blahaj zone…
You have the patience of a saint.
I’ve not actually seen the evidence myself
That’s why I said to read through the user’s history and critically consider why the profile expresses the particular things it expresses. Look at the gestalt, not just individual incidences.
drag is not based on blahaj zone…
I know. But other trolls can copy this behavior and infiltrate safe spaces by being hosted on your instance.
I will share that dragonfucker has significantly harassed me and sent death threats toward my way, it was through an alt account so I guess one could say that it could’ve not been drag, but the circumstances surrounding it were suspicious enough that I’m almost certain that this alt was the same person/dragon as dragonfucker. The community that was created to harass and target me !fuckdraconicneo@discuss.online along with the alt is gone but since I was pinged on every account and I have email notifications enabled I still do have all the messages I received, as well as screenshots of DMs from the user account, none of them are pretty.
I’m not a fan of gatekeeping people’s identities and I REALLY don’t think we should do that. I do think we should understand the kind of person drag is though, and acknowledge that these types of things like the death threats, the harassment, and encouragement of suicide have no place here, in a safe space no less.
Hello, drag can clarify the modlog claims.
Mods think drag is a troll because drag uses neopronouns.
Mods think drag encouraged suicide because after Donald Trump was elected, drag told suicidal trans people it’s better to die in battle than to do the fascists’ job for them.
Mods think drag misgendered because Flying Squid’s daughter wants to use she/they pronouns but he accuses anyone who calls her ‘they’ of misgendering because he’s not a good parent.
You know anyone can create a community on Lemmy and use
curlcommands to create fake modlogs, right?hmm, could this be patched? or it’s used by .ml or grad but it’s unlikely so i think it might.
I think drag is talking about using the API or network tab in browser to create bans when a person hasn’t posted in a community before, as far as I know there’s no way to create fake modlog entries, other than doctoring screenshots of the modlog (something you’ll be busted on very quickly) or possibly by screwing with the database as an admin (something that you’ll also be busted on since it won’t federate).
Comment removals can’t be faked or screwed with unless doctored, because the comments removed must actually exist to appear in the log.
Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!
Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.
For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.
We could:
- Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
- Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users
Doesn’t really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.
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My current universal solution in such cases is either directly using names/handles or defaulting to even more general terms such as person/individual/user. Slightly clunkier linguistically and less personal but saves valuable brainspace.
There are plenty of neopronouns that are used by lots of people. In scandinavia we’ve adopted a common non-binary neopronoun f.ex, and english has lots of different ones that are very commonly used
Edit: Also not relevant, this post is about moderating misgendering. You’ve conveyed your problem, but you’ve not actually responded to anything in the post or in my comment.
My post was a response to yours arguing to always respect neopronouns. My problem with it is that this rule untenable. Your f.ex example is fine, as it’s used by a large number of people, it’s something that can actually be learned and applied.
The problem is that you cannot simply always respect neopronouns, as whenever you establish a zero-tolerance, zero-though principle like “always respect neo-pronouns, full stop,” there will be bullies that take advantage of that. There will be bad-faith actors who purposefully concoct “pronouns” that they obviously do not use. Like, what do you do if someone says their pronouns are racial slurs? You going to start respecting those pronouns?
Neo-pronouns have utility when a group of people use them and there is clear understanding around them. Those created by a single deranged or bad-faith individual need not be respected.
Some parts of the internet would call what you are doing concern trolling. Let’s assume it isn’t. This hasn’t happened yet at blåhaj, and I haven’t seen it happen elsewhere. Ada makes it clear in the post that this wouldn’t be acceptable and that someone with a slur as their pronoun would simply be removed.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
Also I would like to note this part in Adas post:
or to not engage with them.
Why is it that none of you want to do this? Why do you all come here and lash out against neopronouns? You’ve already said it doesn’t make sense to you, but you are free to just leave and not participate, or to not engage with neopronoun users.
So you’re saying neopronouns have to be learned every time, and they’re bad because they’re confusing and effortful. But My neopronouns don’t have to be explained, on a basic level at least. Most people are familiar with capitalised pronouns, often from reading texts like the Bible. Given that My pronouns are a few hundred years old and somewhat familiar to most people, would you say My pronouns aren’t neopronouns at all, but instead perfectly fine regular pronouns?
So you think you’re God? How comic book villain of you…
No, absolutely not. I think “God” should never be a proper noun. https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/god-should-never-be-a-proper-noun-4684aed46cb0
I think I’m a god. I’m a goddess of madness, rebirth, and mirrors. Born of the void in the time before time, imprisoned within consensus reality with the coming of the law-beings, escaped and sworn to vengeance against the rulers of this world for all the wrong they have done. Hope that clears everything up.
Definitely the something of madness, that’s for sure.
Well, Grail, there had to be an explanation for them.
Besides that, some of us reject the notion of importance that is associated with capitalized pronouns. Everything indicates that there are no gods, only humanity. As such I personally tend to give every human the same basic respect, which also includes not elevating anybody above their peers as it by proxy would indicate others being lesser.
If a person were to attempt to elevate themselves above others by demanding special treatment & associating themselves with the notion of godhood by demanding capitalization, I would not oblige. Now, “god” is very clearly incapable of noticing any disrespect when referred to as he/she/it and nobody is hurt by that. However, a human might be.
The clear consequence being the only way to reconcile non-obligation and non-hurtfulness is referring to such a person by their name or not at all. So, I hope my fellow human now understands why I won’t be capitalizing any pronouns.
some of us reject the notion of importance that is associated with capitalized pronouns
I completely agree. And that’s why I’m confused, because it seems to Me that this line here contradicts the rest of your comment. You and I both agree that capitalisation shouldn’t indicate special treatment. So what’s the problem?
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Everyone deserves the right to use their chosen pronouns. There’s nothing special about that.
Also, my pronouns are “neopronouns are abused and often idiotic.” If you refer to me as anything other than this, you’re misgendering me.
Absolutely, I understand. I’ll make an effort to always refer to neopronouns are abused and often idiotic by neopronouns are abused and often idiotic’s preferred pronouns.
And you don’t see how that makes communication completely impossible? Just read that sentence, it make no sense at all. The purpose of having a trans community is to have just that - a community. “Communication” shares the same root. If you cannot effectively communicate, you cannot have a community.
I use capitalised pronouns. If we’re going to have this discussion, I’d rather that neopronouns are abused and often idiotic used My preferred pronouns.
Lots of people in here who don’t get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:
There’s a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it’s barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don’t even know that their experience isn’t universal.
I was interested until I saw the author and it clicked. Must be a broken clock situation.
I’ve only read a handful of Their articles, but all the ones I’ve read seem solid. Can I ask what your problem is with Them?
Aside from Them jumping the gun, causing an unwarranted dog piling on a well loved mod of a small community that was essentially a safe space for some, resulting in that user leaving Lemmy and the community completely dying, I have read at least one article of Theirs that called people who did not volunteer for war murderers, or something to that effect, I just remember it being an excessively nasty and unnuanced take.
In another article They also advocated for being generally unlikeable, which had some good points but ultimately goes against everything I think is good about being a leftist.
I recall that in general conversation They were often argumentative and quick to anger too, not someone I ever wanted to interact with, though frankly my memory on that aspect is shaky at best.
Just because someone might not have the same opinions as you, or even in some cases opinions you consider dead wrong it doesn’t mean they are always wrong.
Think of political parties, in one case a party you usually align yourself with makes a terrible decision, and in another case a party you hate makes a decision you would wholeheartedly support. Does that mean your prior preferred party is suddenly on the same level as your hated party? Depends, of course, but we can’t deny that we can’t expect everyone to share the exact same values as us. Variety is the spice of life, and sometimes even someone we consider to be right/wrong will surprise us in negative or positive ways.
I never saw that article before but I do like it, I have noticed that a lot of people who I know that identify as cisgender don’t seem to have an internal sense of gender or pay much mind to gender but I didn’t think anyone else thought that too. It’s nice to see my idea isn’t as unpopular as I initially thought.
Thanks for sharing this. As an older person working to sort out their gender identity later on in life it’s nice to have more ideas to consider.
I’ve wondered if gender identity is a bit like our other senses where we can practice and get better at discerning the signals we’ve always been receiving, but haven’t always known what they mean.
How much is trainable and how much is innate.
Anyway thanks again for sharing this.
It sure is trainable to some extent. I didn’t think I suffered from gender dysphoria when I first realised I was trans. I was only able to connect with gender euphoria to realise My identity. But after I experimented with My gender and tried on some new pronouns and self-images, I realised I hated being a male. I was miserable, but I wasn’t able to see My misery, because I thought it was just life. It’s like when someone with tinnitus doesn’t even realise they have it, because they’ve forgotten what silence sounds like. When I started thinking of Myself as trans, I experienced that metaphorical silence, and then I could hear the metaphorical ringing that was My dysphoria.
What a great article
Haha, look who it is. Love the article, a few of my friends have realized they also might be agender from it.
Thank you! I’d love to blow your mind a few more times if you’re interested in reading the rest of My stuff https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/you-already-think-like-a-soulist-fe1723151b85
It really is, I thought I was one of the only people to think that Agender might be really common but just hidden because many people who don’t feel gender can blend in as cis or not even know they’re Agender. Obviously we’ll probably never really know for sure but I do think it’s likely that many of the people out there who don’t feel gender or don’t think about gender are very likely Agender.
I also saw a meme a while back that said animals are Agender because they don’t give so much thought to gender the way humans do.
If you like exploring the unknown reaches of identity, I’ve got some articles I think you’ll like.
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/on-spiritual-genders-b4152c4503cb
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/introduction-to-capitalised-pronouns-f5140e722b48
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/the-nested-structure-of-gender-identity-75681e3cfa34
Thank you, I’ll definitely give these a read, they look interesting.
As always Ada, eloquently put ♥️♥️ thank you!
