lol “im from poland and i never heard of racism” suuure i wonder what they call romani people …
You mean cyganie. Thats pretty much just the coloquial name for romani pepole. Belive it or not other than ocasional old lady trying to scam you they never were that much of a problem in Poland nor they were treated particulary bad. In fact they are romanticised a bit in Poland.
Now they are still treated with wary beacuse obviusly they are. Its pretty hard to not be when most interaction general population have with them are them trying to scam you. Is the reason for them doing so beacuse of some historical racism in the south? Maybe. i dont know nor do i care .
Probably something like «rohadt cigány» if it’s anything close to the kurwas in Hungary.
Ignorance and racism are not the same thing. There’s overlap, but even if it can be hurtful, ignorance is not malicious.
Ignorance born of environment is understandable.
Ignorance born of anti-intellectualism is malicious.
For a good time, ask central Europeans about the romani
^ This. In my native Hungary, as much as we would all count as “white” to someone from an actually racially diverse country, people are still super racist against Romani people. Even allegedly progressive people.
Many Romani Americans keep their identity a secret due to harmful stereotypes from the media that depict >Roma as nomads, scammers, beggars and thieves.[50] 70% of Romani Americans hide their Romani identity to avoid stigmatization
That seems worse than in Europe
Never once heard of romani existing in the US, so that’s believable. I mean in theory they must.
Gypsy Sisters existed (I didn’t name the show sue TLC not me). We’ve got 'em, but if the other guy’s number is correct at 1mil there’s 6x less than Native Americans, and, when is the last time you’ve seen one of them either (depending on location)?
I quite literally don’t even know how one would identify that ethnic group, but then I can’t think of why I would need to either.
Like visually? Idk. I only have known when they told me.
1 million of them. Didn’t GTA 4 revolve around Romani in US?
No that was just your cousin Roman who wants to go bowling. Niko himself is an ethnically Serbian Yugoslavian war vet.
Least favorite GTA game hands down, too. All hail Vice City and San Andreas.
What does “malicious” mean here? Structural racism often doesn’t have ill intent from any individual people, and nevertheless still affects people’s daily lives.
There’s a kind of stubborn ignorance which is very malicious. It’s how we got trump, in part.
Yeah that’s called hate
Europeans are so racist, one facet of the civil rights movement in the US was black GIs being treated as humans by europeans during the war and then returning to the jim crow US. There is absolutely racism in Europe, as a continent. However, most US commenters here are conflating being less politically correct than the US with the de facto batshit insane institutionalized racism that still prevails stateside. Call me when EU prisons are used as slave camps (populated overwhelmingly by black people) or we have a para-military neo-nazi force arresting people because of the colour of their skin. Meanwhile black people get access to healthcare in the EU and have higher life expectancy at birth within the EU than the progressive polite US of A…
Denmark forcibly sterilizing Greenland Inuit women, the general treatment of the Romani people, Brexiters crying about immigrants, oh hey look things are getting worse for black people, Zwarte Piet, golliwog dolls, the racism adjacent to Islamophobia…
It generally looks different in the US because a) the population is way less homogenous so different ethnic groups can both form distinct cultures and are more likely to interact with other groups and b) the core issues are baked into every facet of our history and fixing all of the lingering effects means actually facing and discussing all of it. This is complicated by a sizeable portion that are perfectly happy with a segregated society. We fought a war with ourselves about it and didn’t actually fix anything in that process. (I suspect that a great many Europeans are also happy with a segregated society, and as long as that segregation is along country or even village borders they can pretend it’s not the same kind of bigotry)
There is absolutely racism in Europe, as a continent. However, most US commenters here are conflating being less politically correct than the US with the de facto batshit insane institutionalized racism that still prevails stateside. Call me when EU prisons are used as slave camps (populated overwhelmingly by black people) or we have a para-military neo-nazi force arresting people because of the colour of their skin. Meanwhile black people get access to healthcare in the EU and have higher life expectancy at birth within the EU than the progressive polite US of A…
Also, since you mention Scandinavia you forgot the Sámi and the use of eugenics in Sweden well into the 60s…
What about “Zwarte Piet”? That has nothing to do with racism.
The use of exaggerated black features to depict a servant that originated as a slave demon has nothing to do with racism?
This is the kind of stuff this post is about. It’s not that “Americans talk about race too much” it’s that y’all don’t talk about the problematic stuff enough so you don’t even recognize it.
That would be Speciesism just to be pedantic. But no, it really doesn’t and shows a poor understanding of the historical background of “zwarte Piet”.
Zwarte Piet is 100% a slave with all the traditional symbolism around the character. The fact that people call their role ‘helper’ or ‘assistant’ really does not change anything about the historical background of “zwarte Piet”
We are basically portraying a white man with black slaves as a great thing, and celebrate it. Combine that with the fact that it’s mainly directed at kids who are very easily influenced in such regards… It’s a bad tradition.
I know that for 99% of the people this probably isn’t the message they want to send, but even when not malicious it will influence the way children look at the world.
Why between the things that are genuinely bad (racism) you mixed in religion? Religion is a choice, and if you choose to believe bizzare fairy tales, I’m going to see you as as mentally challenged person.
Nobody asks anyone’s religeous opinions before acting in a rascist manner. First step is profiling (including race and clothing).
Also you make it sound like mentally challenged people deserve to be discriminated against
Nobody? I feel like majority does.
Discrimination? I said “see you as”, which does not involve any real action, it’s just my thoughts about religion in general, does not matter which one
People are bigoted against Arab and North African people based on the assumption of their religion, an assumption made from their physical appearance.
So am I not allowed to dislike religion because it’s origins are Arabic? What a stupid mental gymnastic. What about Christianity and Europeans?
Disliking religion is fine. Discriminating against Moroccan people on the assumption that they are Muslim is not.
I never said I discriminate anyone. I almost never bring up religion in real life and I’m not racist. All these are wild assumptions. I’ll repeat my original comment - religion is a choice, it should not be put in the same sentence/context as racism based on someone’s skin color or ethnicity - something you didn’t choose or can’t change. Me shitting on islam or christianity is nowhere on the same level as hating all brown or white people. I’m sure there are many that see Arabic person and assume they’re highly religious, but for me that’s BS because I know too many ex-muslims
But I’m talking about social trends across Europe, not you.
Call me when EU prisons are used as slave camps (populated overwhelmingly by black people)
Is prison labour only slavery if the prisoners are black people? Because prison labour is common in Europe.
Where did you read that prison labour is common in Europe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paid_prison_labour
The availability of paid work in Europe is increasingly low. For instance, approximately only 5,300 labour roles are offered to 12,500 prisoners in Greece, while in Italy there is only one inmate out of five who is entitled to paid work.[21]
And before you nitpick. Unpaid work (like helping in the kitchen) translates into reduced sentences and isn’t common at all.
It also doesn’t matter what colour their skin is.
Ok, let me specify a little more, paid prison labour is really common in Germany, to the point I’d say almost all prisoners are working. I’m not talking about working in the kitchen here, I’m talking about cheap labour for private companies, usually manufacturing.
When people of color make up more than 0.02% of the population, we’ll be glad to see those humanistic policies and programs upheld.
That figure for France is approx 500-1000 times higher than your bullshit made up number ;)
Even higher including overseas territories
Colonial invasion is not the defense you think it is.
I’m not endorsing France holding onto Guyana et al. Just pointing out that the figure is that high even just in the mainland.
Also higher when only focusing on the capital city.
Colour of skin =/= race.
I’ll give you a pass because you’re usanian and you guys exist in a bastardized version of civilised society.
Race isn’t even real. Science stops before then, and maybe you can get vague ethnic groups that can be mostly self defined.
We all live in bastardized and fragile versions of “civility”. None of them are perfect, some of them are worse, and the usa is a big place, please don’t generalize and group us all together.
Pretending your civilization is superior is… Probably something you should be cautious of.
Yeah. It’s just that we have the history and problems (and some solutions) you don’t. It’s not necessarily because you’re better people, is it.
So you’re enjoying not having to deal with either. You think it’s pretty great. There are a bunch of racists here who 100% agree.
Oh ffs, we border Africa and Asia you absolute moppet. There are far greater divisions within Europe than skin colour. France has battled England for longer than the US has existed. Denmark still has a law that allows the Danes to clobber Swedes crossing a frozen Öresund. Half of Europe was once ruled by an inbred caste of Austrians. While all of this happening, there were other races around and the peoples had commercial and social relationships. Almost the entirety of the Iberian peninsula was at some point populated by North Africans and the Roman empire was once divided between East and West.
Nobody thinks we’re better people, it’s just that the entire globe agrees you’re not good people and are educated to have the miopic view typical of a place that thinks they are better than everyone else while conveniently ignoring they’re living on stolen land from a wealth of genocided native peoples.
This debate about who is worse, is fueled more by personal patriotism and propaganda than any actual facts.
America is not “better” than Europe, and Europe is not better than America. Both have done terrible, inhuman things in their history, and it’s not a matter of who is righter or wronger.
American had slavery and the Native American genocide, but Europe had Belgium doing insanely awful behavior in The Congo, Germany starting two World Wars, Great Britain oppressing people in every corner of the planet, and lots of other abuses of various people by various countries, including many countries ferociously oppressing their OWN people. Europe and the rest of the world had the Vikings, the Romans, the Sea People, the Gauls, the Huns, the Khans, the Crusades, and countless other warrior races/nations that slaughtered as many of their neighbors as they could find. America may have committed some egregious sins, but they’ve only been around for 250 years. The rest of the world has been killing each other for many CENTURIES. And yet somehow, America is the ONLY bad guy?
Every single nation on this planet has their own historical shame. NOBODY has the moral high ground here, so we should all stop acting superior, accept that all humans are horribly flawed, and just shut the fuck up, stop blaming everybody else, and try to clean up our own countries and create a better future. But first we have to acknowledge our own pasts, and stop blaming other countries for the same things we’re all guilty of.
Can’t forget Portugal started the transatlantic slave trade and was followed by Spain, Britain, NL, and France.
Yes, the very same transatlantic slave trade that the Spanish, British, Dutch, and French rely on for their feelings of superiority over the US. Can’t help but notice those are all European countries.
Nothing wrong with clobbering Swedes crossing the Øresund.
Wow you border areas very different from you? That’s gotta be a great source of societal change huh.
Not sure how “we’ve hated each other for stupider reasons for hundreds of years” is your lede but, write what you know, they say.
Nobody thinks we’re better people, it’s just that the entire globe agrees you’re not good people and are educated to have the miopic view typical of a place that thinks they are better than everyone else while conveniently ignoring they’re living on stolen land from a wealth of genocided native peoples.
*myopic*. So true about the stolen land. Irrelevant to the discussion but true. Hey I heard you guys literally were the Nazis, is that true?
Wow you border areas very different from you? That’s gotta be a great source of societal change huh.
Written like someone “educated” in the US. If only there was a discipline, I don’t know, like history, that taught thousands of examples of exactly that…
Hey I heard you guys literally were the Nazis, is that true?
It was also a European who killed Hitler, so it evens out at the end of the day.
also some Europeans were, and am*ricans currently are Nazis
Remind me, which African colonies did Americans own into the 1950s.
I can tell you which European ones existed…
It was also a European who killed Hitler, so it evens out at the end of the day.
Interesting, why aren’t there any statues of this guy, or a day in his honour? Unless there something you’re neglecting to mention lol.
“we’ve hated each other for stupider reasons for hundreds of years”
Are you saying hating people based on their skin colour is a better reason than hating them for trying to take away your land?
Well, it’s at least more concrete than hating them for worshiping a slightly different imaginary sky being.
Jolly, I can feel the americaness oozing from the screen. They say ignorance is bliss but this doesn’t seem very blissful to me.
Godspeed my USA friends and strap in - you are about find out so much in the next couple of decades.
European kids are taught that racism is bad but not how real, systemic, subtle racism actually looks. We are taught that slavery and hitler is bad, so our bar for what is acceptable is very low.
This is also why Europeans will get offended if you point out something subtly racist they did/said. They think you’re straight-up comparing them to Hitler and the KKK.
That seems like how it is in the US too.
“Racism is only a thing very bad evil people do. I’m not an very bad evil person. Thus I cannot have done racism.”
“what you said was kinda racist”
“How dare you, I’m not a racist!”
The unacknowledged shift from the adjective form “racist” to the noun form “racist” is the best indicator that someone doesn’t really get what racism actually is in real life.
As an example of why that’s wrong, I can do something stupid without being a stupid.
Many people need to accept that they are not perfect, and be open to learning. Instead, many people lash out. Gotta protect their ego.
True, but nothing new there under the sun.
Everyone always laughs at the people who complain about “woke” and asks them to “define woke”, but can you define racism?
Racism
Racism is the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to inherited attributes and can be divided based on the superiority of one race or ethnicity over another. It may also mean prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against other people because they are of a different ethnic background.
From Wikipedia
a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
From Merriam-Webster
harmful or unfair things that people say, do, or think based on the belief that their own race makes them more intelligent, good, moral, etc. than people of other races
From Cambridge dictionary
As for Woke
chiefly US slang, disapproving : politically liberal or progressive (as in matters of racial and social justice) especially in a way that is considered unreasonable or extreme
From Merriam-Webster
a way of referring to the acts and opinions of people who are especially aware of social problems such as racism and inequality, used by people who think these acts and opinions have gone too far
From Cambridge dictionary as “wokeism”/“wokery”
The guy was obviously being a troll.
But, there certainly isn’t a consensus on racism. Some vocal elements demand that for for something to be racist, there also has to be a racial power imbalance working in the favor of the person being racist… and they’ll use that distinction to explain how actions that would be evaluated as racist by the definitions you provided actually aren’t if the target is in a position of racial privilege.
And, personally, I think that definition was literally seeded as a wedge by state actors for the explicit purpose of sowing discord, but here we are.
That’s just misapplying an academic definition in a colloquial circumstance, which happens a lot in various disciplines. It’s like the “what is a vegetable” question: it means different things to a botanist, chef, and tax collector.
Ah, the American Millennial: the generation that could’ve led us toward utopia if they cared more about actions than words.
(yes I see the whole academic definitions thing as a specifically Millennial trait)
So just dismiss everything the person tried to explain to you, because you’ve decided, with absolutely no proof that they’re millennial? The fuck is wrong with you?
Colloquially, racism means prejudice based on the perception of someone’s “race” (ie: ancestry, physical characteristics such as skin tone).
That covers things like assuming a black man knows about gangs and rap based only on their skin color.
There’s also the institutional level where individuals might not really think or feel anything about race, but it still is a factor. Stuff like closing polling places in predominantly black neighborhoods, or individual police officers who are given a quota and only assigned to black neighborhoods. Housing in the US has a long history intersecting with the idea of race. “The Color of Law” was a pretty good read on it.
Wikipedia puts it nicely:
Racism can also be said to describe a condition in society in which a dominant racial group benefits from the oppression of others, whether that group wants such benefits or not.
That covers things like assuming a black man knows about gangs and rap based only on their skin color.
To a back person:
“Hey! You’re from Philly? I know a black guy from Philly, named Pete. Do you know him?”
I’ve honestly heard people say stupid shit like that, multiple times in my life.
Trust me, A LOT of racists in America have no idea they are racist, and would be highly offended if you called them racist.
“I’m not racist! I work with a black guy at work all the time. I don’t know much about him, I’ve never asked him about himself, but he’s a pretty good guy, one of the good ones.”
I don’t know much about him, I’ve never asked him about himself,
Fair, that’s just called “guys” and doubly so for “work.” Mostly jokes and work shit, good dude.
one of the good ones.
Line crossed lol.
When I was in grad school I lived in an international student dorm where I was basically the only American. One day we had a party, and after a few drinks the Europeans started into this game they’ve all seemingly done a hundred times before where they started saying the most vile shit I’ve ever heard to each other while laughing. Like “OK, sure everyone in my country is drunk all the time, but it’s better than you guys letting in all those thieving gypsys!”
So they did a full round of about 20 people throwing the worst racism/nationalism I’ve ever come across in real life at each other, including absolutely dunking on the only black guy as if he was a representative for all africans, then like a hive mind they all turned to me and someone went “At least none of us are as racist as these Americans!” followed by uproarious laughter. I ask myself internally all the time if my behavior is problematic, but it seemed like these people never learned that skill but instead were taught “USA=racist, everyone else is good” and never questioned it or themselves.
For years this led me to privately think “Man, Europeans are way worse.” But then, you know, we elected Trump twice and the Klan came back dressed in camo.
When my son was in college in NYC, he deliberately cultivated a circle of friends from all over the world, which gave him a lot of interesting influences and insights that most American kids wouldn’t have.
After graduation, they were hanging out together, collaborating on projects (they are all various sorts of artists), and starting their careers, when he started to notice a troubling thread running through their conversations.
He started to realize that the reason that all these international kids were in America studying the arts, is because they all come from rich families who can afford to send them to NYC for an education, and then fund their lifestyles as they pursue whatever career path they want. They have no real motivation for success, because the parents are going to pay the rent anyway. They were jamming multiple people into an apartment not because of affordability, but because it was fun to be with your friends all day. They just reproduced dorm living in a $5000 NYC apartment in Manhattan.
But the real issue came when they’d be sitting around eating and talking, and he started noticing how class-conscious they were, and judgemental of people without a lot of money - like my son. He was listening to them disparaging normal people, and realizing that they are talking about people like him. Not HIM specifically, they thought of him as one of them, and liked him, but he realized that he comes from the world they were ridiculing. When he would defend a political policy meant to protect the middle-class, or to punish the wealthy, they would look at him like he was spontaneously speaking another language.
He was starting to realize that maybe he had to cut off several of these “friends,” when Covid hit and they all went back to their respective countries. A few have been back to visit, and he’s decided to continue friendships with some, like his friend in Australia, and let some friendships go, like his friend from Portugal. He is still sad about the collapse of his international friend circle, but he acknowledges that he learned a lot about class and the way the wealthy think.
He is a big Mamdani/ AOC supporter.
words vs deeds
Words normalize the sentiment in order to commit deeds
Such a weird take, every single other thing isn’t binary, yet suddenly racism is? Self reflection and critical thinking are what’s lacking.
Shouldn’t have to be taught to treat others with respect or how you would treat yourself.
A lot of people think and are taught in a very binary way.
To be fair, before a certain age kids really can’t contextualize anything beyond binary. Its either good or bad.
For a real world example, there’s a new solar farm not far from where we live. The company that set it up engaged in some shady bullshit acquiring the farm land which was entirely owned by small family farms, with a couple of family farms effectively forced to exit the farming business by their shady bullshit. For my mother in law who’s a huge MAGA supporter, she bought all of the propaganda about renewable energy being terrible, so the local scandals over this solar project fit right into her worldview. My wife and I want a better world, so we take a more nuanced view of “that was bullshit but at least the panels will be generating clean electricity for the next 20-30 years or more” my kids are caught in the crossfire as both my in-laws and we attempt to inform them, but not directly throw the other adults under the bus. My 6 year old has really struggled with understanding how they should feel and it’s taken multiple long discussions over multiple years to get to “solar panels are good but taking good farmland is bad”
Any discussion with important nuance is extremely difficult with young kids because they really can’t understand nuance yet. They can kinda understand “yes but” with enough education time but more complex than that it completely falls apart. Kids can’t fully wrangle with complex thoughts and metacognition until basically adolescence, and before that point it’s largely just black and white reasoning.
So in short, kids will be taught in a purely binary manner until about age 10-12 when their brains are finally developed enough for more complex reasoning, and anyone who checked out of learning around that age will likely be pretty deficienct in more complex skills and issues
Shouldn’t have to be taught to treat others with respect or how you would treat yourself
No disrespect, but I disagree. Respect is absolutely a learned behavior.
what ever respectful means is a defined by your culture. What is considered respectful is different in the uk versus the us, at least that’s what thought this post was about.
Kids absolutely need to be taught this. Kids don’t magically share, or treat each other with respect. You teach kids how to be respectful everyday.
You teach behavior and biases, but it’s well observed that kids naturally don’t see distinctions between groups of people until it is taught to them, and that kids do feel empathy naturally, and will feel upset about perceived injustices and such. Isolating a white kid so they don’t see a Black kid until they’re 15 is a learned thing, if they’re raised in a shared environment, they won’t see a difference. What you teach is how to act on it (like sharing), how to handle emotions about it. Restricting experience is teaching.
what ever respectful means is a defined by your culture. What is considered respectful is different in the uk versus the us, at least that’s what thought this post was about.
Umm that’s racism…. You’re describing what it means to be racist. If you need to be taught that only certain things/people/races/religion/colour are to be respected… that’s why people think black people don’t have livers.
You are the issue mate, full disrespect. You are racist. If you choose be respectful to someone only to blend into those around you… you don’t deserve any respect.
You need to be taught to treat others the way you would yourself?
Or are you teaching your kids who and what to respect? Because you’re doing the latter, not the former and are perpetuating these issues.
This has nothing to do with culture at large, that’s justifications for rasicm, and that’s what you’re teaching your kids. The exact issue that’s trying to be pointed out.
Self-reflection and critical thinking are almost always defeated by social conformance among healthy well-adjusted humans. For a social animal, it is more important to agree with the group than to be objectively correct.
social conformance among healthy well-adjusted humans
By racism you mean? Those are leaned behaviors that take over from being taught that others are different from you.
Humans inherently care, and love each other. Anything else is taught by someone else who thinks they know what’s okay.
The only objectively correct way to treat anyone else is how you treat yourself. Anything else is just learned hate.
Humans inherently care, and love each other. Anything else is taught by someone else who thinks they know what’s okay.
The hell you on about? I ain’t givin shit about anybody who’s not already in my friend circle and sure as hell last time I checked I am human. Empathy varies a lot in humans, some people are naturally caring, some don’t give a damn if most people around them die, most are somewhere between so chill out.
The only objectively correct way to treat anyone else is how you treat yourself. Anything else is just learned hate.
Let others reap what they sow. Extend some respect at first and give benefit of the doubt but if they aren’t worth it, they simply aren’t worth it. Anything else and you’re gonna get used, trampled and disrespected.
And that extends to racist, homophobic or transphobic idiots who cannot argue for their stance. If a black person killed your dog and that was only black person you ever saw, yeah, fair you have bad opinion.
But if you’re like one of my coworkers who hates gay folk cause it’s fun, not respect, die in a ditch.
Please don’t talk at me. You’re not really addressing or engaging with what I said. You have a point to make that’s got nothing to do with me, take it to the top level.
Of course people don’t like it when it’s pointed out that they were actually taught to be racist.
You made a wildly racist remark in response to someone saying that everyone should be treated how they treat themselves.
Of course you’re gonna get called out.
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Lmao, this is basically religious thinking, with the inevitable “problem of evil”. If people inherently love each other, where does hate come from?
where does hate come from?
From being taught that someone is different from you in some way.
Does this seriously need to be explained? And do you think babies naturally hate? That they are capable of it without being taught? They know to love and snuggle with humans, any. They’ll even snuggle with a deadly lion. They need to be TAUGHT otherwise.
Babies don’t care about colour, or religions, they don’t even know what the fuck that stuff is dude. Until they are taught.
From being taught
And who teaches? An another human, right? But doesn’t that human also inherently love other humans? So he must’ve been taught to hate too. If you go step by step into the past, at what point is hate introduced into human society?
Babies are not fully developed human beings, they don’t have a society, culture, or almost anything else, including basic survival mechanisms, so they’re a pointless comparison. It is ridiculous to think they, left to their nature, wouldn’t develop communities, trust and suspicion, stereotypes, etc. that can eventually build up to racism. We have documented wars among literal apes, humans are definitely not much nicer in their natural state (whatever that might be - it can’t be just “being a baby”).
And the human teaching the baby can CHOOSE what to teach the baby. If you’re teaching it to respect XYZ during ABC, you’re teaching it hate.
Babies and kids share, yes there will be fights, that’s also human nature, but look at those reasons. To provide shelter for those close. They aren’t doing it out of hate, it’s for protection or other issues.
Just because someone takes your food doesn’t mean you go to war, invite them, share with them. Yes it can go south, but that’s also taught behavior. The chain has to be broken somewhere, and if you need it to be pointed out that you’re one of the issues… well the cutters are there. Just because the past has hate, doesn’t mean you need to perpetuate it forward.
Critical Thinking Skills are the most important skills you can learn, polish, and employ on a daily basis. It is the proper way to think, and if you haven’t downloaded the Critical Thinking software into your brain, then your brain will invent its own chaotic adhoc thinking style, and you will be at the mercy of predators who will manipulate your mushy mind.
I had an English teacher in the 70s who was really subversive, and taught much differently than normal. I was out of school for years, and as the Conservative movement was growing, I wondered why I wasn’t falling for it, despite listening to Rush Limbaugh at lunch nearly every day.
Then I realized it was because I had strong Critical Thinking Skills that allowed me to recognize and resist propaganda, even really seductive propaganda like Limbaugh’s.
Then I realized that the reason my Critical Thinking Skills were so good was because I had gone through three years of Mr. Clark’s English and Shakespeare classes, and he was only using those subjects as vehicles to teach us Critical Thinking Skills, and then practice them every day until they were just our default way of thinking.
Mr.Clark literally taught us to think properly, and he did it entirely by his own design, outside of the purview of the school system. He was far more subversive than I ever gave him credit for. He was expertly manipulating our minds, as teachers are supposed to do, but he was highly effective, and we are lucky he was motivated by good.
After I realized all that, I tried to contact him to tell him I was onto him, but he had passed away 5 years before. He may have been the most influential person in my entire life, and I wish I could have told him that.
I’m Canadian and this is how I was raised too. Racism = Hitler, KKK, and neo-nazis. That’s why it’s bad.
So if you’re going to call someone racist, don’t be surprised if they think you’re comparing them to Hitler or the KKK.
And if you’re going to say that there’s different levels of racism and some are only as bad as stepping on someone’s toes, don’t be surprised if people don’t really care.
Only as bad as stepping on people’s toes
Well, only as bad as someone who cares whether or not they step on some people’s toes, and doesn’t notice/doesn’t care if they step on other people’s toes.
My European cousins tried to explain to me that it was weird how no Jewish people died in the twin towers on 9/11, like they had all been warned. I had to patiently explain that I had friends who died in 9/11, some were Jewish, and that whatever his source was, it was likely nazi propaganda, and extremely disrespectful to repeat obvious bullshit.
I remember hearing that conspiracy theory, snopes has a detailed page about its origins: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/israelis-absent-911/
TLDR: originally it was not nazi, but Syrian propaganda. Obviously nazis pick up whatever fits their world view.
You just solved a 20 year old mystery that I didn’t even realize I was curious about. It was super weird, because these were relatively progressive, educated adults, and the audacity of the bigotry just sort of left me confused. This helps me understand a little bit better.
Before the modern internet it was really hard to fact check something. In 2001 in the eastern bloc it was still rare to have internet at home (in Poland only 10% of the population used the internet in 2001 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IT.NET.USER.ZS?locations=PL), and English language knowledge was very low, the compulsory second language taught in schools was Russian before 1990 (this was the case in Hungary, I guess it was common in other Warsaw-pact countries).
I just looked up the snopes article now, I didn’t know the origin story an hour ago, but I suspected it was not true. If someone just heard this gossip around that time they didn’t really have an easy way to check it, and in their long term memory it was saved as fact.
Before the Internet, we had to rely mostly on Critical Thinking Skills, which used to be overtly taught in decent American school systems (not Republican states).
If someone in a bar said something as dumb as “No Jews died on 9/11,” most people would recognize that as almost certainly wrong, just on the face of it. Two enormous NYC office buildings, filled with primarily financial companies, in a city with one of the highest Jewish populations in the world, and not ONE of them was Jewish?
Even if you could buy the ludicrous story that somehow EVERY single Jew was warned to stay out of the Twin Towers (and presumably all the airplanes, too), are we supposed to believe that wouldn’t somehow leak out in the non-Jewish world? Some Jew wouldn’t call a co-worker who is also a close trusted friend, and warn them to not go to work tomorrow? That someone wouldn’t contact the media? That would require us to believe that the entire Jewish community is such a strong monolithic block that they would hide this massive secret from the rest of the world, and simply let their non-Jewish fellow citizens perish that day, instead of warning the authorities and stopping it.
Does that make any logical sense at all? It might if you are so virulently racist that you think the Jewish community would actually do that. But a thinking person would just look at them like they are either an idiot, crazy, or both.
Of course, the real problem in the pre-Internet era, is that you couldn’t pull out your phone and slam the moron with sources and facts, so stupid arguments like this one would often end with a highly unsatisfying Agree to Disagree.
If someone in a bar said something dumb before the internet, most people actually believed it outright. I don’t know what school taught you critical thinking, you lucky bastard, but you’re in an enormous minority.
Most people carried so many misconceptions around, from small to big, it’s not even funny. There was less connectivity in stupid people, so their bullshit wasn’t that refined, but it was absolutely more ubiquitous.
If someone just heard this gossip around that time they didn’t really have an easy way to check it, and in their long term memory it was saved as fact.
And yet - *gestures to everything*
Tbf the Syrian regime had ties to Nazis
And these Syrian nazis wrote articles in the state newspaper Al-Thawra in 2001? Or what do you mean?
Europeans when asked about the Romani
Europeans don’t actually talk about Romani all that much. The whole situation is still a big problem, the discrimination is real, a lot of people have old uninspected misconceptions, there are people who have active hate in their heart, but it’s not a topic on anyone’s mind. It’s a small minority (~2% of population) that, ironically, lives in pretty compact communities predominately in south-eastern parts of Europe, and it’s just not a thought that crosses most people’s minds.
The actual racism that exists in Europe is mainly comes against refugees from muslim countries, not Romani, you need to update your mental hatemap.There is also a lot of gaslighting about racism in Europe. “We don’t see color,” type shit
Racism in Europe isn’t based on skin colour, it’s based on older, more weird stereotypes and history. There is no direct “white skin - not white skin” axis that US is known for, so technically we don’t see colours, we see light reflecting properties unachievable for an American
Are you white? And if so, have you ever asked non-white people if they feel they get treated with prejudice or discrimination because of the color of their skin?
Yall like to say America is so different yet you also forget, America as a nation was founded through colonization BY EUROPEANS. We learned our racism from europeans because we were europeans.
This is also accurate about Americans.
Are you using “hatemap” to mean Lodemike’s view of Europeans, or European’s view of minorities?
What does this mean?
Nalivai closing with “you need to update your mental hatemap” seemed like a petty jab at you considering that they had just described that anti-Romani prejudice is a problem, but I wasn’t sure exactly how they meant it.
Yes.
fuckin shame innit.
Isn’t it USA that invented a word “gypsies”?
Oxford states that the first known use of Gypsy was in 1514. It was popularized by Edmond Spenser and Shakespeare and has its entomological root from the Middle English word gypcian due to the misbelief that Romani people were from Egypt.
So, to answer your question, no. The only Europeans in the Americas at this time were the Spanish.
As an American the most openly racist thing I’ve experienced in person is someone from Europe talking about the Roma. I think we just talk about racism more.
I would wager a guess that you actually read on reddit someone experiencing that. Or someone talking about someone else experiencing that.
You would be wrong. I meet two people at college and they were both extremely hateful.
What German kids in the 19th century got taught:
An 1845 German children’s book called “Der Struwwelpeter” has a story about three boys teasing a dark-skinned boy. Saint Nicholas is punishing them.
Struwwelpeter is absolutely horrible, esp. the fact that it was sold as an actual children’s book and apparently well enough to be remembered forever.
I just learned that the guy called himself a psychiatrist. In 1844, this was a very different kind of science. He was very pleased with the success of his book - which he wrote for a 3-year old relative - until his death.
That said, I did not know he spoke out against bullying of minorities.
I wanna party with those tiny men.
edit: not while they do a racism, they just look like fun lil guys…
Itt:
Americans are dumb af and know it, but Europeans are dumb af and don’t know it.
OH HOW THE TURNS HAVE TABLED
I might have missed the part where we voted into EU parliament a highly racist figure that yells about walls, random ethnicities and threatens others based on their skin color. Can you tell me more? I’ve not noticed Europeans by majority voting for people like that.
Europeans who are racist (especially from the east, or countries which didn’t have colonies) are racist in the sense of staring at black people and trying to touch their hair.
Americans who are racist are racist in the sense they want to disenfranchise black votes, gerrymandered the hell of their districts and maybe enslave them in a federal prison for a minor drug offense. Because lynching is frowned upon these days.
Both exist, but they are not the same.
You’re very blatantly underestimating the extent of European racism just because it shows itself less towards black people specifically.
It shows itself versus everyone specifically. There is no group of people persecuted based on their race by politicians, law enforcement, media and half the population like back people are in the US. Or brown Muslims in the US. Or transgender people in the US. Maybe in Poland, this last one, but i don’t think so.
In Europe roma people are discriminated against in a worse way
Any specific examples of laws or initiatives or just the hurt durr Roma poor that was inherited from reddit?
There are no laws, but for example in Hungary romas are segregated in countryside schools
Well, that’s kind of my point. If the worst thing is what some villages in the most hostile country are doing, shows that there is no systemic/institutional racism to the extent of the US.
Oh wait Romania is worse
Also look at North Macedonia
Romani?
That’s just strictly wrong. Never ask a European about the romani
That’s just strictly wrong, a a dead horse inherited from reddit, probably even older.
It’s a joke on reddit because every time they say it a European comes out of the wood works to prove the joke true.
And you extrapolate that to an entire continent. Good job.
Europeans will also be like British people treating Polish people like shit, or various flavours of white people from adjacent communities deciding the other white person needs to be struck from the earth.
Europeans can absolutely be violently racist. I mean, who do you think sold all those slaves to the US?
yeah exactly, we don’t need someone to have a different skin colour to be racist, that’s a simple man’s racism. us europeans only do the finest of racisms - normal people with normal white skin (my village) vs the weird people with a similar skin but their accents are kinda weird and scary (all the other villages, and especially that one village over there)
(huge /j in case that wasn’t obvious)
And don’t ever mention the Romani, hoo boy.
Polish people are not a race…
No people are races. Jesus cantankering Christ. Race isn’t real, it’s pseudoscience.
Define “race” and then tell me that an anglo person is the same as an eastern European person.
Do you not understand the difference between a race and ethnicity or nationality?
The first sentence of wikipedia: “Race is a categorization of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into groups generally viewed as distinct within a given society.”
Also you not understanding that there are physical differences, if more subtle, between Eastern Europeans and those descended from Celts and the like is a you problem.
Why did you quote Wikipedia for a word definition? I don’t care what some randoms write in Wikipedia, we have established definitions agreed upon by experts and governments. Please refer to a better source like Oxford dictionary and learn the actual meaning of racism
Also, I’m from East, a Slav, who constantly travels to Scandinavia (Nordic countries)
This guy is Polish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Olisadebe, I can define race however you want, Polish is not a race.
I said Polish because they are the group of easter Europeans that are most readily gone after in Britain. British is also not a race, by the way.
Ya stupid.
So… It’s not racist, you say?
Tbf some people in Africa don’t know what racism is either. In some places white people are not that regular and some kids in the country side never even saw a white person, much less ever faced or understand the concept of racism. If you are somewhat isolated in a comunity you won’t get it until you start watching more problematic Tv or movies. Maybe that’s what this polish person said
I live in a big country, in a big city, and I don’t get why racism is even a thing, imagine being isolated!?
Of course, some people in africa experience racism from other black people. It isn’t all white v black, sometimes it’s Hutu v Tutsi.
Lots of people love to hate other people. Hate releases endorphins, and endorphins feel good. They just need a reason, it doesn’t even have to be a good one.
“I really hate people who part their hair on the wrong side.”
“Which side?”
“Whatever side that the people I hate use.”
“WTF?”
People don’t think it be like it is, but it do.
Ethnicity is not race btw.
Let’s be real, it’s a semantic difference when we’re talking genocide.
you arr talking genocide. I was talking about Racism.
When I was a kid we had so few POC in our schools; it was simply because there weren’t many here yet. I had one black person in my grade school and three in my high school. It was just our population then, the area was mostly European immigrants back then. It has changed immensely now, and the racism against immigrants here is pretty vile.
History in school focuses on European history, which doesn’t really have much racism in it (it has other not-fun stuff). And until fairly recently, especially for eastern Europe, there weren’t that many people of color, so you wouldn’t really encounter racism as an issue. I mean, your parents would say some wild stereotype about black people, but no one would bat an eye, so you wouldn’t know that it’s bad. With internet and general globalization it’s changing now, but there’s still a long way to go
… So those lessons on the many centuries of European colonization** included zero self reflection on the racism involved?
History lessons are a bunch of names and dates that you have to learn by heart. We went there, we made this place, we came back with this shit, we made a church. Here’s a family tree. Even when learning about battles and borders, we don’t get to ask “why were they here? Why were we there?” We just know that we were at war because this king and that king disagreed. Sometimes, at best, one of them just wants control of this location or someone’s wife banged the wrong duke, but that’s almost only for intra European conflicts - and Jerusalem.
Ethnic social issues came very late. Jews and other wandering populations are completely ignored.
History lessons don’t have to be that way, that’s just the way they’ve decided to present these topics to remove the horrible shit their countries did during them
I’ll start by saying that I didn’t pay too much attention during history classes, but it probably just puts me closer to the average person on that topic.
The way I remember history classes (I’m from Poland), is that they were heavily focused on our country (excluding sections where we talked about ancient history, obviously) and on how our country fought to keep existing. The wars it had with its neighbors, the fights over land, etc. And Poland didn’t really participate in colonialism, so it was just mentioned that other countries went to Africa and got slaves, but that’s mostly it. And we knew that slavery is bad. But there wasn’t too much effort on elaborating on this topic. Partially because that realization is still trickling in.
I’m simplifying a lot, but I think that’s mostly what you’d carry out of those lessons. Maybe there was a week where we talked about the civil war in America, but that’s very little compared to the rest of the topics, so it doesn’t stay with you.
If you consider the history of Poland, it kind of makes sense. There was a lot of struggle to not be eradicated, to preserve our culture, etc. And that’s reflected in what we learn in school.
And I’m not defending the way it is now. I personally don’t like how “selfish” the point of view in those classes is. But I am sharing my experiences and thoughts, to add some context.
Poland was too busy being enslaved by ottomans, tatars and russians to care about racism.
ottomans and tatars?
Yes it was an empire filled with extremely aesthetic chairs for some reason
For many centuries. Google “jasyr”.
European history is basically “and these people there killed each other because they didn’t like the pope” so it’s not exactly a surprise we are less sensitive to “this is racist” rhetoric, when every single possible reason has been used to justify slaughtering each other. If St. Barthelemy was not racist, why should the crusades be?
American history is pretty much always them murdering non-whites, in comparison
Note that I’m not defending the reasoning, or the problems it creates today, but I see way too many people online acting like Europeans were all BFFs before the empires came up
Do Europeans just not learn about the scramble for Africa and the Berlin Conference of 1885 or something? How do you have so many colonial powers and none of your history classes touch on the murdering of non-whites? This feels like some truly insane educational blinders
EDIT: Corrected conference date
Yeah, even in the US (who Europe makes fun of for not knowing history) we spent a ton of time on the triangle trade with Africa (which Europe was very much the creator of and active participant in).
Like the “we didn’t have a lot of racism here” when they were the powers enslaving the native populations to sell to their other colonies…is an insane thing to say.
I can only speak for Germany’s history education.
Yes it did touch the scramble for Africa and Germany’s colonies. But colonialism is a comparitively minor part of that period (1890 - 1920) for Germany so it was the focus for a couple of lessons only. The genocide was covered - but again, only for like a single lesson or two.
There’s just a bit too much history to cramp it down into 90 minutes per week and go over in detail, especially since teaching about the world wars is a priority.
I mean, we literally crammed the period 1970ish to reunification within a single lesson at the very end of 12th grade because we ran out of time.
That’s a fair point. I don’t know that I would say colonialism was minor for Germany, but I suppose the advantage of American education is you have a lot fewer years of crimes against humanity to cover since its a younger country.
Sorry, I didn’t mean minor in that sense.
I meant more like in the sense of not exceeding a single chapter in a history book. It did happen and was significant – but overshadowed by WW1 happening shortly thereafter and ending German colonization right then and there (except for WW2 but that’s another topic).
1885 is way too recent. Anything past 1800 is Napoleon taking Europe, everyone’s local consequences, and then WW1. There’s a thousand and a half years of material to discuss before that even after Greece and Rome, this is only the very end and if you’re paying attention.
The racist wars by European countries are diluted by any other wars. One decade they’re at war because the prices of wheat went down 10%, another because a pop had a vision, the third because someone’s princess is ugly and nobody want’s to marry her, then because someone found a sliver deposit in a desert.
The history of Europe is a history of wars and war-related horrors.A significant part of Europe did not participate in the scramble for Africa, which can in part explain OP pic - the guy is from Poland.
There was no Berlin conference in 1845.
Anyway, each country has its own educational system, with different scope and methods of teaching history (unavoidably wildly different due to different national histories), so making any blanket statement on what is taught in Europe is a minefield. Now, I’m pretty sure most kids in Europe are taught about the colonisation of Africa, but how exactly it is presented, how much weight is given to it, how it is integrated into broader cultural discourse (including e.g. does anyone even talk or care about it outside school history lessons) can vary wildly.
Practically speaking, why would Poles have to care e.g. about English colonisation of India a whole lot? Do you really think such stuff can be relevant enough to strongly shape people’s worldview?
Sorry, I wanted to confirm the name and it is listed on wikipedia as the Berlin Conference of 1884-1885, and I typo’d it anyway. I think it should be relevant enough to shape peoples worldview though. Its hard not to see parallels with the current campaigns of genocidal colonial starvation.
People avoid self-reflection until the last possible moment. It’s unideal, but unsurprising, especially when one sees themselves as uninvolved.
Is it really self reflection when the question is. Should a HUMAN be punched in the face.
The issue is, they think they aren’t human, so they don’t even stop to think. Kids should be taught that everyone is equal, not the specifics of racism, what does that accomplish? Just reinforces that they think they aren’t human?
European history “doesn’t really have much racism in it”? Huh? You sure we’re talking about the same european history here? Maybe in some parts of Europe this isn’t taught, but I definitely learned in school about colonialism, the transatlantic slave trade, the Nazi’s racism against Slavs and Romas etc…
Are slavs a race?
yes?
As a slav myself, TIL.
yeah, also in nazi terms, we are not white
We are not Aryan, probably. White is the other nazis ’ vocabulary.
I mean, your parents would say some wild stereotype about black people
Why would they? There’s been practically no black people here, and little reason to have stereotypes about them. People would say wild shit about the Roma, they’re the default kicking bag in many parts of Europe.
Because it’s funny (to them) and because no one will fight back. The fact that there are no black people here means that you’re free to say whatever you want.
I’d give some examples, but honestly it feels wrong to even quote it, so I’ll pass.
I’ll just add that it isn’t even “agressive racism” (where they hate them or something), just ignorance and lack of reflection.
Where are you from?
Y’all got no world history classes?
We do, but they are simply not the focus. There’s still a very heavy patriotic rhetoric
I’m barely european and it was a 50-50 split. We had a much heavier emphasis on the rest of the world towards the end of the school program/start of college program.
Either way it shouldn’t be taught as part of just history class, law/ethics/literature (at least) come to mind.
Of course, but did your world history classes talk about racism? I’d guess that was a theme in the classes about your own country’s history, whichever country you happen to be from, but not really in world history.
You needed to be taught the basics of the two world wars, the concept of dark ages and renaissance, something about Roman empire probably, etc. And people from countries whose history doesn’t include noteworthy amounts of racism have to learn about the same amount about their country as you had to learn about yours, and have about the same amount of teaching time left for teaching the same things about world history that were taught to you.
Oho, I would not have expected this comment to get downvoted. Anyone able to explain why? It’s now received one upvote and two downvotes. What is wrong about the comment? When I’m as surprised about something as now, it’s often a good chance to learn something!
Of course, but did your world history classes talk about racism?
Kinda, when the slave trade and the US civil war was covered. I don’t remember how in-depth it was at the time. Was briefly covered in law classes too iirc.
I’d guess that was a theme in the classes about your own country’s history
We had white (by modern standards) slaves and white slaveowners. Nationality/ethnicity is more important, and the reason for most of the killings and hate and bigotry in the region.
In a sense it was a blessing, gave us a better class consciousness, and made me realize sooner how dumb the concept of a race is. Unless self-applied it’s pointless at best, and at worst very harmful.
Americans aren’t anti-intellectual. We have a VERY high percentage that ARE.
The fascist portion of politics is staunchly anti-intellectual, but most of their supporters wouldn’t know what it looks like.
Can’t be racist if you don’t know black people exist.
Polish version of racism is against Romani people
This might surprise you, but you can be racist against people who aren’t black, too.
Being from Europe doesn’t mean you can’t be stupid. It’s just harder because it’s encouraged not to.
