• z00s@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    “American companies are scared of the open market when it works against them, yet refuse to make better products”

    • randomaside@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      3 months ago

      There is a good reason why American companies are scared. It almost never works out for them. Sony vs Zenith TVs is a great example about how a foreign company improved on a technology (color tv) and made zenith look like a stingy dinosaur overnight. Instead of selling color TV’s zenith just doubled down and sold cheaper shittier TV’s. By the time color was standard, their reputation was ruined and no one wanted a Zenith when Sony was the best. Sony however wouldn’t have been able to get into the market without help from zenith in the first place.

    • BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      The issue was that Chinese EVs are ahead of Western EVs due to aggressive subsidy and investment by the Chinese government to get ahead. So the market has been distorted which is what was “scary” according to the quite in the article that spawned the headline.

      Having said that, I’m not sure I believe that Chinese EVs will be better quality. They may be cheaper and they may even have technically advanced but from experience of other Chinese products, quality is not a word I’d associate with them.

      • bitfucker@programming.dev
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        3 months ago

        The US government can do the same, and they do bailouts for companies often too. Isn’t that also meddling in the free market? Why didn’t the US government incentivize EV then?

        • AA5B@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          One of the ways they have are through CAFE credits - incentives for higher fuel efficiency and electric vehicles, since at least 2012. However the credits are tradeable, so legacy manufacturers instead bought credits from Tesla, and other EV manufacturers

      • lorkano@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        BYD is so ahead because they were making batteries for a long time before going into ev business. Also I would not say tesla quality is high either

      • pop@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        due to aggressive subsidy and investment by the Chinese government

        yes. similar to a lot of western products.

      • SeattleRain@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Americans aren’t going to care about quality that much if their monthly payment is only $200. As long as a Chinese EV is reliable long enough to make it’s total cost of ownership much lower than American EVs or ICEs they will line up to buy them.

        The American market has been desperate for a cheap and reliable car, a role Japanese automakers used to fill, and both US and Japanese makers know it.

      • Woozythebear@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        All the best and worst shit you own is made in China. If you don’t want cheap shit don’t buy cheap shit, but these cars are really nice and inexpensive.

        These cars are in tons of countries outside of China and they are very well received.

        • DjMeas@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          I agree with you. China is manufacturing cheap products because that’s what (a lot of) consumers want as well. They also make expensive quality products, too. I have friends who like to rag on Made In China products but they love the quality of their iPhones which are just Designed in California.

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        I don’t know about other countries but US has both pretty strong incentives and protectionist barriers. However they’re meant to be temporary. This is legacy automaker’s chance. A few years for the government to help them transition, but they need to be willing to come out of the closet. They’re throwing that opportunity away

        • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          If anything, American companies have a massive resistance to change. Change has a risk and a price, and they’re determined to stick with what works. Like the movie industry…why make brave and risky moves to make a unique movie when you can retread old ones or wring every penny out of a franchise?

          Anyway, the US auto industry has a long history of institutionalized exceptionalism, I can’t find it right now but there’s a quote from one automaker that, when confronted with a suggestion that change is needed, the response is essentially “you’ll buy what we tell you you’re going to buy”. IOW they dictate what the consumer wants and gets. And maybe they’re gambling on more protections against Chinese companies so they don’t have to change and can maintain their control. Incentives just seem to be soaked up and disappear. They jack up the prices to the consumer so there’s no real help, like Tesla raised their price to match buying incentives offered by the government to consumers. Straight up greed.

          • AA5B@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            short sighted greed. That behavior makes sense only if you’re focused on the short term and don’t care about the future of your company

            • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Time and again the quarterly report has taken precedence over the long-term wellbeing of a company. Think of the value for the shareholders.

      • csm10495@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        American cars have their own subsidies as well. I mean the government bailed them out of dying several years ago.

        We shouldn’t have bailed them out. We should have bought a public controlling interest in them.

      • RatherBeMTB@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        American Cars look like relics from the last century when compared to Chinese design and capabilities, that is why the American car companies do not want Chinese brands in their market because there is no way they can compete with them.

        Chinese brands just arrived in Mexico and it has been a massacre for american and European brands, a lot of car dealers have been closing lately and you can see in the streets that most new cars are Chinese. The Chinese dealers have impeccable service and the architecture is impressive. Prices are 1/3 of the European cars and 1/2 of the American Cars. The only ones that might be able to compete are japanese and Korean car companies.

      • z00s@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Cheap labour under a command economy is hard to beat, I’ll grant you that. But the best counter to that is to focus on high quality construction, like Toyota does, for example

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Every country does this that is a red herring. Does your country have public schools that produce people who work in the automotive sector? Congrats you live in a country that has an agressive subsidy and investment in the automotive sector.

  • Croquette@sh.itjust.works
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    3 months ago

    The issue is that there aren’t low cost cars anymore. Everything is over 25k and the used cars market is insane.

    So yeah, no shit we want cheaper cars.

    • ohlaph@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Yeah, it’s wild to me. I was looking to replace a vehicle and cheapest ev was just over $30k. But none have been in stock, only $45k+.

  • Snapz@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    People will be Open to affordable cars from anyone if the traditional makers don’t start offering affordable vehicles.

  • Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Shocker. People don’t want to pay $40k + to commute to work.

    A lot of people want a reasonably priced car that can commute, have enough range for something fun on the weekend, and have a stereo that isn’t total shit.

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      3 months ago

      But the rub here is that it’ll be like a new Walmart opening in your town. Before too long everyone is shopping at Walmart and all the small local businesses shut down because they can’t compete with the prices and purchasing power of one of the largest corporations in the world.

      Once that happens, all those workers get jobs at Walmart and then spend 80% of their paycheck buying products from Walmart. This leaves the town poor as a majority of the money circulating around gets sent out to Bentonville Arkansas where it goes into the Walton’s bank accounts to be used to hire more lawyers to get them out of yet another vehicular manslaughter charge.

      This shit is how the US wound up like we are today with rampant homelessness and shit wages, but all people care about are seeing those low prices on the store shelves.

      • TheDuffmaster@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        But for the most part are American cars bringing that much more value for the price? If the average American car lasted 250,000 miles with little maintenance, maybe that would be worth the price.

        • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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          3 months ago

          BYD and other Chinese manufacturers are only able to sell at these low prices because the government is paying a portion of the manufacturing costs which isn’t sustainable long term. What will happen is that they’ll continue to subsidize them until they put a bunch of competitors out of business and then end the subsidies. Their prices will shoot up, and we’ll be right back in the same situation we are now with high purchase prices. The only difference is that a lot of American manufacturing (union) jobs will have disappeared because of it.

          • ililiililiililiilili@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            The US government can and should be directly financing mining and making lithium batteries. There’s enough lithium and cobalt scattered around the world to not give China full control over the price. The perfect is the enemy of the good. Until a more energy-dense battery chemistry goes mainstream: lithium is our only option to stop burning (some) oil. Batteries needs to be fully embraced regardless of who’s currently setup to profit. China just thought ahead and the US wants to throw a tantrum.

            • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              The US government can and should be directly financing mining and making lithium batteries.

              It is. My employer is making bank on it right now.

            • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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              3 months ago

              Great but this had nothing to do with selling cars with massive, unsustainable subsidies as the price of lithium is just one part of the cost to manufacture a car. Furthermore, their goal isn’t to get more people into EVs. It’s to increase power and influence by selling their product at prices so low, nobody can compete against them. Once the competition is gone, a monopoly forms, subsidies end, prices skyrocket, and ideas and innovation stagnate.

              Your approach is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Who’s going to develop a more energy dense, climate friendly solution if the entire market is controlled by a single entity?

              • ililiililiililiilili@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                The batteries are about half the cost of making an EV. A $30k car literally has $15k+ worth of batteries inside. The Chinese are prepared to produce batteries today. China will not be able to arbitrarily limit global supply in the future. Global lithium supply is not analogous to oil prices and OPEC.

                Lithium ion batteries are not produced by 1 entity and the tech has been around a few decades. People are absolutely innovating better, more sustainable, and less toxic battery chemistry. Lithium is just the best option we have now.

                • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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                  3 months ago

                  You keep focusing on the lithium market while I’m speaking about the automotive market. If China makes EVs unprofitable for the rest of the market by selling them at an artificially low price, who is going to be left to build them once the dust settles?

            • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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              3 months ago

              I have no idea what you’re referring to with “the stock swap.”

              The US government does provide subsidies for EVs, but it is different in that it doesn’t solely apply to US companies or companies directly controlled by the US government and they aren’t being used for cars sold in other nation’s markets. Any player in the industry can receive them provided they meet the criteria which is why American, South Korean, Japanese, and various EU-based companies are currently receiving them.

              • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                2008 Stock swap with GM. Thanks for admitting the hypocrisy of everyone defending the big 3.

                Big 3 shills: give me tax dollars

                Also Big 3 shills: our competition gets tax dollars and it is unfair

                The CEO of GM could personally blow me and I still won’t give them a dollar.

                • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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                  3 months ago

                  I think this argument must have been written in 2008 because nobody here is defending the “big 3” and the “big 3” doesn’t even exist anymore as Dodge/Chrysler is owned by a European company and Ford/GM manufacture most of their cars in Canada and Mexico. The most American vehicles these days are Tesla, Toyota and Honda. I even specifically pointed out that US EV subsidies apply to manufacturers from multiple countries…

                  If you think this is some sort of “gotcha,” I have bad news for you.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        The cost of cars went up dramatically during this last period of greedflation. I’m not going to cry for the domestic car makers. They’ll get a bunch of government money to continue being shitty.

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        3 months ago

        No it’s more like Aldi and Lidl coming and opening up next to the big supermarket of the town. The local shops have already been killed by Walmart or in my country Tesco. Aldi and Lidl come in and undercut the giant and skim off a portion of the trade, and a portion of the people work there instead. The big supermarket can’t muscle them out because they’re far bigger companies than they look.

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        I think we ended up with rampant homelessness because banks turned housing into an investment instead of asset and your local Karen made zoning laws to keep POC. Shit wages are also pretty simple to explain stock buybacks were allowed and encouraged allowing.

        Also your comment feels like it is from 2003 you have to update your propaganda periodically.

  • cosmicrookie@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Whose fault is it?

    Chinese EV manufacturers, on the other hand, are already five to 10 years ahead of their American and European rivals, Kumar said. A lot of that is thanks to aggressive investments in the EV industry from the Chinese government.

      • Grass@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        Everyone does that though. My favourite is the original Xbox and everything from around the same time having notoriously bad capacitors because a faulty electrolyte formula was chain stolen.

    • AA5B@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Yet US has incentives, mandates, and protectionism. Why aren’t US manufacturers 5-10 years ahead?

    • Crikeste@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      From the average American’s perspective? Probably still China. China always bad. Always.

      Americans are also so lacking in moral consistency that they’ll throw their racism and xenophobia to the side just to save $1.

      • Professorozone@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        On the other hand, so many things in America have become so expensive many people are priced out of the market. Perhaps they will save the $1.00 because if they don’t, it doesn’t happen. The average price of a new car in America is more than $47k. That’s a lot of money.

  • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    I’ll pay extra for three things: efficiency/electrification, longevity/repairability, and a UAW sticker. What I won’t pay extra for is a giant car, executive bonuses, and car salespeople.

  • downpunxx@fedia.io
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    3 months ago

    American Automobile industry decided back in the 1970’s they were going to pull as much value out of the consumer as they possibly could, which destroyed the reputation of American cars being the best made vehicles in the world.

    Americans want value, and to stop being screwed by more and more expensive cars which suck and break down, so are open to alternatives which is why the Japanese car imports exploded in popularity.

    China is looking for influence, and so the “value” the CCP wants, is other than monetary to exploit the American populace, and this is one way they’re looking to achieve that.

    • SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      So instead of expensive cars that suck and break down, we’d have cheap cars that suck and break down. Which is technically better, I guess.

    • PP_GIRL_@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      destroyed the reputation of American cars being the best made vehicles in the world.

      This was always pure propaganda and if that argument were being made, that downfall would’ve happened way before the '70s. Like, beginning of the 20th century, at latest.

        • PP_GIRL_@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          We never were. Europe was making production, ICE cars decades before Henry Ford told the world that he invented the process

            • icydefiance@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              Ford didn’t even claim that he invented the automobile. However, he did make the manufacturing process a lot faster, and therefore cheaper, so he was the first to sell them at a price that most people could afford.

              He was also a turbo-racist who Hitler saw as an inspiration, but that’s a different subject.

    • SeattleRain@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      This! This! This! Goliaths like GM could make competitive affordable cars tomorrow if they decided they’re were going to make money off building good cars instead of ripping off consumers, financialization and oligopolistic tactics.

  • antidote101@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Apparently when everything’s made in China, it gives China a bit of an advantage…

    … who’d have thought, except everyone who said so when the west started outsourcing all their manufacturing work there.

    • sushibowl@feddit.nl
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      3 months ago

      Aside from the chicken tax, Trump also slapped another 25% tariff on Chinese cars specifically because fuck you if you want a small cheap EV.

      And it’s not only about tariffs. Many regulations benefit big cars. There’s CAFE, which ties emissions limits to a car’s footprint: the larger the car, the less stringent the emission standard is. General Motors average fuel economy has actually gotten worse in the past 5 years. And, there’s a $30k tax break for small businesses that buy a vehicle for work that weighs over 6,000 lbs. fully loaded.

      Did you know the US has had a “gas guzzler tax” since 1978? It applies to every car that gets less than 22.5 mpg. Except for SUVs and pickups, those are for some reason exempt. The US also has some of the lowest gasoline taxes among rich nations, giving very little incentive to buy a car that consumes less fuel.

      US federal safety regulations and crash tests, contrary to European ones, do not consider anything other than the occupant of the car. The risks to pedestrians or cyclists are not a consideration at all when evaluating the safety of the car.

      Consider that car makers make substantially bigger margins on the large vehicle segment, and the reasons for all these nonsensical regulations start becoming clear.