For anyone wondering, Deutschland, Duitsland and Tyskland all have the same latin root “theodiscus” that became “deutsch”. “Allemagne” derives from a germanic tribe, the “Alemanni” who lived in modern day Germany and bordered modern day france. Niemcy and Nemetorszag both stem from old slavic “nem” (or something similar) meaning “mute”. They called the Germanic tribes they interacted with mute because they couldn’t understand them. “Saksa” is derived from the German region “Saxony”.
Please correct me in case i got something wrong.
The Latin root theodiscus is actually just the latinised form of the Old High German thiutisk from Indo-European teuta and means “people”. Similarly, Alemanni means “all men”. The Saxons were named after their typical sword or fighting knive, the Seax or Sax. It’s still discussed where the term “German” originates from.
The Saxons were named after their typical sword or fighting knive, the Seax or Sax.
There’s also a possibility the name is related to “settling”, and the knife then probably named after the tribe.
That’s a common misconception, they are actually named after the famous jazz instrument the saxophone.
Wow, language truly is amazing
I thought German means spearman. Because some tribes fighted with the „Ger“, a spear or some special spear(?). Or is this only a theory?
Lots of things are possible, fewer are likely, even fewer attested, even fewer attested without doubt.
Though it’d have a special irony to it: Some Roman asking a bunch of probably Austro-Bavarian or Alemanic warriors “who are you” and getting the answer “Germannen” – “spear men”. Were Italy an Island they would’ve said “sailors”.
Probably more likely than Romans observing those tribes, noting more or less bog-standard javelins, not exactly a rare or particularly notable technology, and saying “hey let’s ask them what they call javelins and add a -man after that for no apparent reason”. Even if they specialised their tactics etc. around those spears would you call Greeks “Phalanx people”?
According to German Wikipedia, this theory, Germans are men with a Ger, is longer up to date.
Hah, man lernt nie aus!
For good measure, in Arabic, Niemcy (actually “Namsa”) is what we call Austria. Germany is “Almania”, same as in French.
Of course, we have as many curveballs as you could want for European place names. Like Venice. Somehow we ended up with “Al Bunduqiya” for Venice. Have fun with that one.
Just to add one more sidenote: France is of course named after the Franks, a German people who lived next door to the Alemanni and the Saxons.
Still do, Franken is on the one hand a part of Bavaria very insistent on not actually being Bavarian (and they’re right), OTOH a dialect continuum reaching over the Ruhr area up to Flanders and Holland.
Charlemagne was a prince of Austrasia, just another guy in a long dynasty of conquerors but notably the one to conquer Rome (and conversion-by-genocide of the Saxons). Also a lot more Gauls back in the day in France before they went all national state and suppressed minority languages in favour of sounding more Roman.
Any idea about how English came to call it Germany?
Latin, Germania
Okay then, where’d Rome come up with it? Oh, “the land of the Germani,” but scholars are divided on the origin of Germani. Possibly from Celt gair, “neighbor.” Or maybe from a few other sources.
The word germ also comes from Latin, “sprout” but I’m not seeing anything like “people who sprout” or “from the land of sprouting seeds” or anything else to connect them at all. It’s more like ger+man.
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Niemcy and Nemetorszag both stem from old slavic “nem” (or something similar) meaning “mute”.
More precisely, the first one is from Proto-Slavic root *něm- (“mute”) and suffix *-ьcь (“person with that characteristic”); ě was not quite the same sound as e, so linguists mark it with the haček, just as it is marked in Czech to this day. In modern languages the nationality is called: Ru. nemec, Pol. Niemiec, Cro. Nijemac… But the country itself is called Ru. Germanija (from Latin), Pol. Niemcy (literally plural “Germans”), Cro. Njemačka (actually a feminine adjective, taken from the syntagm “Njemačka zemlja” = “German land”).
The Hungarian name is a combination of the Slavic loaned *němьcь > “német” (“German”) and “ország” (“land”): Németország.
the “Alemanni” who lived in modern day Germany and bordered modern day france.
Alemans still live in Baden-Württemberg, parts of Bavaria, Switzerland and I think there’s also a splattering in Austria. Basically, High Germans which aren’t Austro-Bavarian (same culture, different kingdoms) are Alemans.
“Saksa” is derived from the German region “Saxony”.
That one can be a bit misleading: The modern state of Saxony has nothing to do with the Saxon tribe, the place the title was applied to slowly drifted over the ages. They’re much more related to Prussians and Thuringians and even Franks, going all the way over to Flanders and Holland, than Saxons proper. (Holland, not Netherlands).
Here’s a rough splotch of where Old Saxon was spoken, which you can consider “core Saxony”. At least linguistics-wise it spread quite a bit especially during the days of the Hanse (becoming a minority language as far up as Estonia), but it definitely stops before arriving at a place where “goose meat” means “could you please”. Utter gibberish.
The original saxons lived more or less in the area of modern day lower saxony, that is north west germany.
Stupid sexy Flanders
I’m guessing saksa is more like the others and based on the Saxon people that once lived there rather than the modern region named for the same
They‘re still living there.
i didn’t mean to imply they weren’t, just that the name was derived from the people not the region.
And I made a silly joke. 🙂
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I mean, the anglo-saxons settled (or pillaged and moved in) England
thiutisk/ theodisk is from a Germanic/ old high German root meaning “belonging to the people”
As is the root of most self descriptions, the name of a group for themselves means “we” or “the people” or “humans”.
This is why I think Turkey’s insistence it be called “Türkiye” in English is dumb. English doesn’t use umlauts, most English speakers can’t even pronounce “ü” properly. English doesn’t use “iye” sounds. They should be happy that the country is more-or-less pronounced the way it sounds in Turkish.
I mean, look at some of Turkey’s neighbours. Georgia, pronounced “sakartvelo” by the locals. Armenia, called “Hayastan” by the people who live there. Greece, called “Elláda” by people who speak Greek (sorry, speak “elliniká”).
People aren’t speaking your language when they’re talking about your country, they’re speaking their own language, and “Turkey” is about as close as English gets to “Türkiye”
Because it’s solely an “issue” that exists to stoke nationalistic thought in the populace. It’s propaganda
Honestly Sakartvelo sounds so much better than Georgia, everyone should be using that instead. Others are equal in my opinion but Sakartvelo is just great.
They probably just want people to stop confusing their country for a bird.
We need to start calling the bird türkiye
The bird got its name from the Turks. If they keep bitching ill start calling them foot rests.
Careful, don’t wand JD Vance developing an ethnic fetish
Wouldnt be the first time a fascist weakling had a fetish for certain minorities. Looking at the Neo-Nazis who like east asians for some fucken reason.
Oh, you mean the “From India”?
Yes, it’s ridiculous. Different countries have different languages, including the words for other countries. Turkish for England is İngiltere, that’s not a problem.
The exonym doesnt have to be identical to the endonym. Some countries try to align the terms, most countries dont care.
I think the main reason Greece hasnt tried to change its exonym is because Hellas is similar to hell. Still, Norway calls Greece Hellas, mostly in order to show how different they are from Sweden. (H)Ellas is so much better sounding, more airy and refined to my Greek ears. Greece sounds too rough and barbaric.
You could drop the H(it is just there for accent/spirit), using just Ellas and/or use the longer Ellada variant but ultimately Greece doesnt care.
Turkey are just assholes so they decided to use a name that most people cant type. They could have chosen Turkia(which is basically the same thing), kinda like the Czech Republic chose to be Czechia but Turkey is not a normal country.
Nobody could possibly argue with a straight face that Cstzeczchia is a reasonable International English name for a country.
To me, “Hellenic Republic” and “Helliniki Dimokratia” sound pretty great, and don’t really sound like “hell”. But, I can see it for Hellas / Hellada.
On the other hand, an exonym that’s a variant of one used for the country thousands of years ago is also really cool. Even though there are a lot of places that have been inhabited for thousands of years, not many of them can point to a continuity like that, going by the same name for that long.
I also agree, Turkia would have been a decent compromise name. But, I’m just going to keep using Turkey.
English doesn’t use umlauts,
Oyē, cünt. Yèr âbùt tû.
No one ever demands all languages should use the English word for an English speaking country. It’s really stupid.
Like if your country was “Everyonehereisacunt” and that country wanted a different name, fine but if it’s just sounds like surely people have the right to use their own language.
Nice choice, using the Canadian name for Australia in your example.
Germany: “Fine, fine, we’re Germany to you. You could have called us Dutchland instead of using that for people from the Netherlands, but whatever.”
USA: pointing to people who settled Pennsylvania from Germany “Pennsylvania Dutch!”
Germany: ಠ_ಠ
Could be worse, I know that some Germans who settled in the US got the name Black Germs cause they were from the black forest.
Also the Dutch angle in cinema, named after the expressionist German film of the early 20th cinema (think Nosferatu)
Shouldnt have called yourself a „Holy Roman Empire” if you didn’t want us to get confused.
You mean the heiliges römisches Reich deutscher Nation?
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That is false. It was called the “Holy Roman Empire” from the 13th century until 1512. The name was changed in 1512 to “Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation”. But even in many official texts after 1512 they still left out the latter part.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#Name_and_general_perception
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There are earlier instances in which rulers of the HRE would refer to themselves as “Holy Roman Emperor and king of the Germans” as separate titles (usually along with a whole bunch more, as was the way of powerful feudal rulers). When they did this usually depended on who the intended audience was. Speaking to the king of France and don’t much like him? Assert your position as heir to the Roman Empire and therefore above him. Trying to get on good terms with the Byzantine emperor, who considers your claim to the Roman Empire to be a usurpation of his own title? Probably call yourself king of the Germans.
These actually were two different titles. The king of the Germans was elected from the twelve Prince-electors (Kurfürsten). After Otto the Great, it became tradition that the current King of the Germans became crowned by the bishop of Rome aka. the pope, as Roman Emperor. However, at least in the beginning this was no automatism. Thus, not all German kings became Roman Emperor.
as was the way of powerful feudal rulers
‘Tyskland’ in Danish, not ‘Tyksland’.
‘Tyksland’ would mean ‘Thickland’ or ‘Fatland’
Tyksland it is! Thank you, @cholesterol.
If there’s an expert on Thickland or Fatland, it has to be @cholesterol.
So it’s Tyskland most of the time, and during the reign of Charles III it can be Tyksland
Can we also talk about “Dutch”?
English-speakers used to use it to mean all non-Scandinavian Germanic peoples. When the Netherlanders became a distinctly separate group Britain had way more contact with them than with anyone else that the word used to cover, so we used it to refer to them specifically
interesting! thank you for the explanation :)
