Who could have predicted this
I had a Libertarian try to tell me that this was going to revitalize El Salvador just a couple of weeks ago, lmao.
The only surprise here is that they stuck with it for as long as they did.
Looking forward to them establishing monero as a legal tender
The government, she assured, will continue buying bitcoin and having reserves in this cryptocurrency. According to the National Bitcoin Office, El Salvador has 6,050 bitcoins worth $634.8 million. “President Bukele continues buying bitcoin, we have a Bitcoin Office, we have the Bitcoin Law, bitcoin can be used in El Salvador.
They’re going to have the US by the balls like Saudi Arabia when bitcoin crosses $1mm/coin
BUT I WAS TOLD THERE’S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BUTTCOIN AND REAL MONEY, WHAT THE HELL?!?11?!
Who could have ever seen this coming other than anyone who thought about it for the briefest amount of time?
Bitcoin isn’t good for making little purchases, firstly because it takes so long to get confirmations, if each block is 10 minutes and you need like 3 blocks to consider it confirmed that’s 30 minutes. But that ties into the second issue which is that you probably don’t want millions of tiny transactions on the Blockchain, you want them processed off-chain and then settled in bulk (to the Blockchain) periodically as a single transaction.
Bitcoin is great for little transactions if you use the lightning network. Sending on the lightning network means instant payments with no confirmation required and absolutely tiny fees. And the only thing that shows up on the blockchain is the transactions to initially start using lightning network and to take your coins back off the lightning network. Transactions made over the lightning network aren’t recorded anywhere other than maybe by the people transacting.
i got back into bitcoin recently and decided to move the contents of my old wallet to a new SegWit one and look into using lightning.
To open a lightning channel i have to stake £170 up front though which is crazy, how are people in poorer countries supposed to do that?
or even here. poverty is on the rise, a lot of people are living hand to mouth and just having that kind of money lying around isnt a thing.
i like the idea of bitcoin but i worry it doesn’t scale well.
Add to that that virtually nowhere accepts it. The value of bitcoin comes from its use as a currency. if it doesn’t have that then it’s entirely speculation.
oh well, i have £2k in there and i’m not turning it back into fiat. I’ll spend it if i can or ride it all the way to 0 if that’s the way it goes
edit: if BTC does hit $1m a coin as the hodlers hope then that would amount to $2000 to open a lightning channel (or more realistically $2400 as electrum wouldnt let me open a channel with the supposed minimum 0.002 BTC, i had to make it 0.0024). I hope that the minimum amount to open a channel will be updated long before that happens though, but i guess we’ll see
“Bitcoin is great if you don’t use the block chain”
That’s what you just said. So why even use it in the first place?
the lightning network still uses the blockchain, just less. it’s acts like an immutable public bar tab you can’t default on. once you have spent enough with another person that it is worth them conducting the transaction on chain then it does it. usually when fees are low too.
That is an extremely simplified explanation of how it works though, it is more complex than that.
Edit: another analogy i have just read is it’s like cashing in at a casino. you put some money in the house (the blockchain) and get some chips, you go in and transact with loads of people, then when it’s advantageous you can cash out and get your BTC on chain; to the house that is two transactions, cash in and then out, rather than a transaction for everyone you exchanged with on the network. that’s probs a better analogy than the bar tab one… but again, oversimplified
bar tab is more accurate, casino is easier to understand.
the actual functionality doesn’t really matter to the layperson though. basically, you put some of your bitcoin on the network (minimum amounts apply), and then you can spend that with very fast transactions and low fees. when you’re ready you can send what you have back to the chain
Bitcoin is a great alternative to something like Western Union that charges high transaction fees. It’s time to transmit is comparable to a traditional back wire, but days faster than an EFT.
Everybody knows Bitcoin is too slow to process point of sale transactions on-chain but there are other Blockchain solutions that can do it. Another user mentioned the lightning network which still actually is Bitcoin but it’s another layer.
Also, I’ve just ignored the environmental impact of Bitcoin, which probably needs to move away from proof of work, or some other solution is required to lower the every requirements.
Sounds like you can steal or fake things
IIRC, a deposit is made by two parties to create a lightning network channel that’s enough to cover all transactions (kinda like a multi-sig escrow), and both parties have to sign-off on their balances after every transaction (the last balance signed by both parties is the only valid state). I think most people would use a custodial wallet where the custodian already has channels set up, and this would require trust in the custodian. Lightning networks didn’t exist, and wasn’t fully spec’d out the last time I looked into it though.
Finally someone who knows what theyre talking about, with an actual valid criticism.
That’s the same way as the economic system works though
Each bank and creditor keeps track of if what they owe each other and then they settle the balancebetween them periodically (depends on the country)
If assume you could do something similar with bitcoin, but you would need an overlay
The IMF wouldn’t give them a credit unless they stopped forcing people to accept Bitcoin as payment, which almost no one was using anyway.
officials ensure that the government will continue betting on this cryptocurrency, whose price currently exceeds $100,000.
I think that’s why El Salvador is dropping it. They never really forced people to use Bitcoin, US Dollar was also the legal tender and unlike Bitcoin, also the money of account.
But really though, can you call for IMF to stop lending to countries which buy Bitcoin using state funds when the issuer of Dollars, the U.S. has a President who has run multiple crypto/NFT scams and wants to use Government money to pump up crypto prices?
They wouldn’t be able to do all that evil stuff with the petrol-dollar if there were a valid alternative… Thus the IMF ban on bitcoin.
Let’s not get astray here.
The reason El Salvador stopped using Bitcoin as a legal tender is not because it’s some sort of failed experiment (it had issues, but still), but due to continuous pressure of IMF interested in maintaining a US dollar-centric economy.
El Salvador is reliant on US dollars in its economy, which puts it under heavy US influence. Knowing Salvadoran currency wouldn’t be strong, Nayib Bukele suggested an alternative option - risky, volatile, but free from pressure of other countries and strongly appreciating in the long run. IMF didn’t like it, and that’s where we are.
So, when you cheer Bitcoin not being legal tender anymore, you also cheer US and IMF projecting power over the country.
Yeah the headline is insane. This would have been a wildly successful experiment, and now is a great time to cash out.
I guess they made a deal to sell their coins to the US.
Edit: misinformation, sorry. They’re not selling. they’re still buying. The IMF is just forcing them to strike the word legal tender
Its even funnier. They just straight up promised them a billion dollar loan on the condition that they abandon bitcoin.
In December, the government struck a $1.4 billion loan deal with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) that scaled back its bitcoin embrace after the lender urged officials to limit its exposure. The lender specifically advocated making acceptance of bitcoin voluntary for the private sector, which is spelled out in the hastily-approved law.
Hot damn why is this not the headline we are seeing
Thats what im wondering, because thats the blog post headline i first saw.
Site doesn’t load
The link is still working and reuters is a huge organization so its probably an issue on your side.
Nope. Their site is always broken. It doesn’t work on tor browser in strict mode. Try it.
We shouldn’t be linking to such websites
That is hardly a valid reference point for a news source. The site even works without JS which is better than most sites.
Exactly. The title is misleading af
They were forced to stop using Bitcoin as legal tender by external parties. The question people should be asking is why? And the answer is not that it was a failed experiment.
The experiment was to move beyond external parties. They were not able to do so and returned to using external parties. Ergo “the experiment failed”.
They were forced to do it by the IMF and US
Why do you think that they’d care about it if it was failing?
So they experimented with resisting the US and IMF and it was not successful.
We call that an experimental failure.
You really don’t get it. “Blockchain” was not the experiment. “Utilizing blockchain in the global economy” was the experiment.
And it failed.
Again, for the people in the back:
The experiment was whether or not they could be independent monetarily. Not whether or not blockchain works. But whether, in actual practice, if it could provide the monetary independence some people claim it has the power to do.
Outside influences were strong enough to overwhelm Bitcoin adoption and it succumbed to those outside influences. As an experiment seeking to test whether or not Bitcoin could resist these influences it failed.
This is how experimentation works. Now you can tweak your experiment and try again, but acting like failing at the exact thing you were trying to accomplish is somehow not an experimental failure is just delusional.
i remember laughing at crypto nerds about this a few years ago, but who’s laughing now?
me, still
Crypto prices from a few years ago were hilariously low. Keep laughing tho!
El Salvador apparently invested about $270 million in bitcoin since 2021 and that investment is worth about half a billion bucks now. Oh my god, ha, what idiots!
i don’t understand why you dorks are laughing when i advocate for the use of tulips as legal tender. i’ll have you know that i recently cashed out during the height of this latest tulip bubble! you rubes are simply jealous of the treats i can now buy and the very coherent and good point i’m making.Wow you are funny. How many years has this act been going on?
Ok, can they sell it then? What’s the use of Bitcoin? Why are you valuing it in Dollars? Countries accumulate Dollars and other first world currencies to be able to import more (and in case of El Salvador, spend more domestically). Bitcoin is sitting there doing nothing.
Same applies to massive foreign exchange reserves like in the case of China. But still, atleast forex reserves can be quickly used to stabilize the exchange rates.
Also keep in mind even if they sell it and assuming there is enough liquidity, $300m one time isn’t a lot of money even for a country like El Salvador.
The IMF is forcing them to sell it. They probably want it.
Edit: misinformation. They’re keeping it as a reserve. They’re just being forced to strike the language of legal tender
Yes, he could sell it.
It’s commonly used as a store of value. When people invest in gold, what’s the use of that? They’re not going to actually use the gold for its physical properties.
I’m American and the unit of value that I’m most familiar with is dollars. We could convert it into any currency that you’d like. I could have also said simply that their investment had about doubled in value and roughly had the same initial value as about 10,000 economy cars.
Sovereigns aren’t the same as individuals. For sovereign, at the macro level, spending drives consumption and creates employment of real resources.
If El Salvador had its own currency, they could tax and spend that instead. But no, they use US Dollars.
If El Salvador had its own currency, they could tax and spend that instead. But no, they use US Dollars.
This is a legit criticism. It’s absolutely wild that these colonized states are completely monetarily subservient to empire. I think they go with bitcoin instead of their own currency, because bitcoin is much harder to destroy/manipulate.
Bitcoin is not different from the USD fiscal policy space wise. You use USD (which you obtain from trade, remitances, loans and capital inflows) to buy Bitcoin or use the same USD to buy ASICs to mine Bitcoin with. In the end you hope to sell it to someone else to get more USD than you started with.
Even if it’s not for conversion then would the population like to use a system where there is no physical cash form of bitcoin (El Salvador has large informal economy) fully dependent on internet, electricity and a smartphone. Would the Government make budget denominated in bitcoin? How will all the pricing be done? Why should El Salvador go through all these complications instead of adopting its own currency where it’ll have more fiscal space?
Bitcoin was never widely used in El Salvador outside small transfer payments which would’ve been converted to Dollars pretty quick anyways.
Having your own currency gives you power to manipulate exchange rate and employ domestic resources instead of having to borrow continously from the IMF.
Not saying that a sovereign currency alone is enough. Countries may not be able to enforce taxes enough or try pegging rates to the Dollar to prevent pass-through inflation and balance of payments issues. But it is a necessity.
What’s the point you’re trying to make here? You seem mad about el salvador’s bitcoin experiment. They made a little of money on their little investment.
They make no money from the investment you mentioned unless they sell for Dollars. Your stock portfolio gets you no money in form of capital gains unless you liquidate it for Dollars. Same with gold.
Is El Salvador budget denominated in gold or bitcoin? No, it’s denominated in Dollars.
El Salvador should first stop using a foreign currency, the dollar. Then worry about trying to attract capital inflows.
I agree. No currency or store of value has any true value until you go to spend or exchange it. It only has potential value.
You do realize that Dollars also are also constantly changing in value.
now do nvidia
I can’t say I understand the bitcoin hate in this thread. I have very real, realized gains.
Your meme should say, “I love working for minimum wage at Wendy’s”
they could have bought rolling 16x futures on gold in or 5x on cacao beans in 2021, just saying, with better success chance and lower risk. The fact that you won (allegedly) in casino doesn’t make you smart, it makes you lucky, it’s bonkers to do for a country
You seem pretty smart. They should probably put you in charge.
thanks 😉
El Salvador apparently invested about $270 million in bitcoin since 2021 and that investment is worth about half a million bucks now. Oh my god, ha, what idiots!
… Okay just to clarify, you’re saying they invested $270,000,000 and now it’s worth about $500,000?
Is there a typo in your comment or something?
Yes, there was. Thank you.
That feels incredibly off. Bitcoin is around 100k now while back then it topped out at ~65k or so?
They didn’t buy it all at once. The price dropped between then and now and they were buying. Wikipedia has an entry on it.
I’m not an expert on El Salvador’s bitcoin, I just know you all sound like a bunch of sore losers.
Just because you had luck doing something incredibly stupid doesn’t mean it was a good decision
I know you’d like to characterize it as dumb luck because that would make you feel better. The reality is that I’ve been making small monthly bitcoin purchases for the better part of a decade as a part of a much larger retirement fund.
When the btc price hit $100k, I sold most of the initial investment so that now I’m just risking losing part of my gains.
You can call it lucky and incredibly stupid. I can call it calculated risk.
So you’re rich because others also bought into the completely unproductive ponzi scheme. Go brag somewhere else, loser.
You’re all mad because you lost money investing in bitcoin when it was pumping and then selling during a crash. Don’t worry, it’s safe with me.
literally no one cares, fuck off dweeb
Source?
Let me Google that for you
https://dig.watch/updates/el-salvador-profits-as-global-bitcoin-holdings-rise
WOAH what a surprised maybe it’s because half of the fucking country lacks electricity or internet? Really good job Bukele.
Well I’m sure the petrol-dollar will fix all that stuff like when El Salvador was a utopia before bitcoin. \s
Did bitcoin fix their economy?
“This is good for bitcoin.”
Honestly with the Trump government right now and the pending trade war, this might be good for Bitcoin. It’s supposed to be a store or wealth that you use to buy other cryptos like monero to spend.
This is not good for the environment because crypto mining is second only to AI model training in useless expendenture of natural resources and pollution.
But ironically, and I say this with no joy. This could be good for Bitcoin and that’s bad for us all.
Bitcoin price movement seems to follow the US stock market, so I wouldn’t bet on it.
Crypto is a massive scam. It has no value. It is just used to obscure fraud.
If you think crypto is a scam, wait until you learn about how fiat currency works. Crypto is a great idea that has been plifered by scammers trying to make another pump and dump scheme.
It really isnt that far off from the stock market, and there are books of regulations involving share trading because all the various frauds commited over the centuries, though most are to protect the captial…
I mean neither does FIAT currency, U.S. currency is based on taxes , there is nothing that backs it. Majority of GDP is just finance. We need more education on what and how a currency actually works.
The value of a unit of currency is based on someone else’s willingness to accept it. If you’re willing to accept two clam shells in exchange for one widget, then our clam shell currency has value between us.
Almost anyone in the world is (currently) willing to accept a US dollar. There will be some exchange rate and transaction fee, so maybe I demand three dollars instead of two. I know that I can convert those three US dollars into my local currency that others are willing to accept.
The whole premise of bitcoin is that the line will continue going up and someone will always be willing to pay more for it than what you paid. If you agree to sell your car for one bitcoin, and tomorrow it crashes, you just lost the entire value of your car. The chances of a sovereign currency crashing is never 0, but it’s much more stable than bitcoin.
Almost anyone in the world is (currently) willing to accept a US dollar. There will be some exchange rate and transaction fee, so maybe I demand three dollars instead of two.
This is exactly the same with crypto. You might argue there are technological barriers to using bitcoin but many of those barriers apply to petrol-dollars as well.
The whole premise of bitcoin is that the line will continue going up
The whole premise of fiat currency is that the line will go down so rich people constantly need a ROI and poor people are constantly pushed deeper into poverty. This is not a superior system.
Nothing backs US currency?
I’d argue the US military backs the US dollar.
Violence based currencies are not sustainable in the long term. That’s why the petrol-dollar has been steadily decreasing in global reserves. It’s why the IMF has to outlaw bitcoin instead of competing with it.
The government, she assured, will continue buying bitcoin and having reserves in this cryptocurrency. According to the National Bitcoin Office, El Salvador has 6,050 bitcoins worth $634.8 million. “President Bukele continues buying bitco
They are still keeping the mass reserves just not forcing it to be accepted as legal tender in stores. Before if someone wanted to pay in Bitcoin you had to accept it, now you don’t have to.
