- cross-posted to:
- world@quokk.au
- cross-posted to:
- world@quokk.au
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Given that most Palestinians are under the age of 14, this was to be expected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine
Not most, technically - wiki says 0-14 make 44% of population. But this article breaks down the 70% further by saying 44% killed were 14 or under, so it’s pretty much bang on for indicating that they’re killing Palestinians at random.
And if 44% are children, that leaves 56% as adults. Cut that roughly in half to 28% for a 50/50 male/female split you get 72% (28 and 44) of the population is “women and children”. If that’s accurate, the title would be better stated as “Isreal kills indiscriminately”.
Random is giving them way too much. Those are targeted numbers
No they aren’t. Most of every population is women and children.
Its not random when you tell a population to go to a place for safety and then you bomb them when they are concentrated in that place.
Civilians are being killed b3cause ha,as is using civilians as shields.
Yah sure. I’m sure when they shoot a civilian it’s because hamas hiding under their dress. People need to stop believing in movies just because hamas is bad doesn’t make Israel the good guy. There doesn’t seem to be a good guy in this fight. Also look at how Israel has treated them over the years is it really hard to see why organizations like hamas have sprung up?
I agree that both sides in this are shitbags. But don’t excuse Hamas’s war crimes.
Nah, I expect militaries to not bomb indiscriminately. Because that’s a war crime.
You expect too much of the IDF.
You seem to expect too little
Ya, perhaps. Time has taught my optimistic ass to be a pessimist where the IDF is involved. Or conservatives. Or… you know… People. ;)
Unfortunately, that’s just war.
There never was, and there never will be a moral army in war.US military can literally hit one target in a building using a literal knife missile - https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/pentagon-used-six-bladed-ginsu-weapon-to-kill-iraqi-militia-leader-7dfe0687
Israel proved they could target precision strike an Iranian general in a single room.
There is in fact an expectation for the military to not bomb indiscriminately, except when in the case of Gaza they choose to bomb indisciminately.
Join the IDF and see for yourself then. Why do you think there is a crisis of morale in the IDF? There was an interview from an IDF soldier talking how emotionally taxing it was for him to drive a bulldozer over dozens of people. Even Israeli news points out how horrific the average actions of the IDF are.
But he still did it. It must have been so hard for him hope he can get over the initial damage. Maybe the other oh wait they’re dead.
I mean, sure, but this assumes that the killing is completely indiscriminate.
It is, but it’s important that you’re clear on that
They’re obliterating entire cities, so yeah.
What fraction is under 18? It’s hard to tell by looking at the graph. I want to calculate what ratio of combatants to civilians killed a number of 70% implies.
Roughly half, as of mid October last year. I don’t think anyone has a clear picture of the current proportions, for obvious reasons.
“Yeah but women and girls will give birth to terrorists, and boys will become terrorists. These are just preemptive-preemptive strikes… Historians may call this genocide but we disagree semantically”. - Israeli government probably
Mossad would be proud of this statement.
Not probably. “Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children.” says the head of their air force.
Actually responsibility of civilian deaths are on those who use civilians as human shields
I don’t get that mindset. Why is it ok to shoot through people to get to the bad guys?
If the police did that when criminals took hostages it wouldn’t be acceptable so why is it acceptable for Israel?
It is a talking point meant to engage you and waste your time, it doesn’t have to make sense. This is conservative playbook 101.
It is a demonstration of good faith vs bad faith. If only you explain it to the person properly then they will change their mind? Nope. They’re just energy/effort vampires trying to exhaust you.
You’ve got your education right on that one. Learned the hard way perhaps?
You don’t know what you are talking about
But they are taking precautions, you guys act like they are doing it deliberately without precautions
Yeah right “precautions”
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
“In war, we don’t have time to incriminate every target. So we’re prepared to take the margin of error of using AI, risking collateral damage and civilian deaths (…) and live with it,”
The army also decided during the first weeks of the war that, for every junior Hamas operative that Lavender marked, it was permissible to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians; in the past, the military did not authorize any “collateral damage” during assassinations of low-ranking militants.
When it came to targeting alleged junior militants marked by Lavender, the army preferred to only use unguided missiles, commonly known as “dumb” bombs (in contrast to “smart” precision bombs), which can destroy entire buildings on top of their occupants and cause significant casualties. “You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people — it’s very expensive for the country and there’s a shortage [of those bombs],”
So if a terrorist broke in to your home, locked you, your wife, and your kids in the basement, then launched a rocket from your bedroom window, you’d be 100% OK with the IDF turning your house in to rubble and your family in to compost? Really? Get a fucking grip, buddy.
The Hutu’s used the term “cockroaches” to dehumanize. The Nazi’s used “rats”. But at least those are living creatures. But “a shield”, calling a human being a shield, as if they’re an inanimate object meant to be struck, as if they’re a nuisance that you’re meant to get through to hit your target? Calling these civilians “human shields” is a new low for dehumanizing language, and Israel defenders don’t realize what kind of monster everyone else sees them as. So wild that it’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture, fucking terrifying.
It’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture because it’s a legitimate interpretation of reality.
It’s not reasonable to say Jews are literally rats. It is a reasonable to say civilian Gazans are used as a shield by Hamas. What is dehumanizing, sometime literally, is using people as shields.
I think it’s more dehumanizing to be the one who kills those people. What the hell is wrong with people? Is murder suddenly okay then?
My gut reaction is to say - I don’t know, if murder isn’t okay, how come I only see people here criticizing Israel and not Hamas or Hezbollah?
When people assign blame only on one side, they’re encouraging the other side to do more bad things. This applies to both the “Free Palestine!!!” and “Antisemitism!!!” camps.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the reason people are saying that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields isn’t a Hasbarah plot to dehumanize Palestinians, but because Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. Could you explain why this seems to be controversial? Do people not agree that Hamas are using human shields, or do they think that pointing any criticism at anyone Palestinian is “pro-Israeli”?
Well people say Israel is in the right because they had people killed. Does that mean everyone in Gaza now has the right to do what ever the hell they want to Israel? Since the IDF has killed way more civilians then the attack did.
Well people say Israel is in the right because they had people killed.
And those people would be wrong. That doesn’t contradict anything I said.
The reason why people are focusing on one side is because one side killed ~1200 while the other has killed ~44,000. It’s like being a victim of a driveby shooting on 9/11 and complaining “Why is everyone only focusing on the Twin Towers?” The problem with pro-Israel supporters is that they somehow can’t seeem to tell the difference between 1200 and 44,000, it’s almost as if the 44,000 doesn’t matter because they’re Palestinian, and the 1200 matters more because they’re Israeli. If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we’d be focusing on Hamas, but that isn’t the case is it?
But wait for it, I can see the Hasbara talking point incoming - “Those are Hamas numbers.” Well the 1200 is Israeli numbers, and everyone now realizes their numbers are lest trustful, because they’re not the ones lying to the world and blocking independent investigative journalism. If you believe Israel is telling the truth, why not let in independent investigation?
Actually, 44,000 is about right for the IDF estimations.
Anyway, you’re saying it’s a numbers game? Let’s say Israel were to round up 1,199 random Gazans and shoot them in the street, people would be saying “Well, Israel killed less people, so Hamas should stop their aggression”?
If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we’d be focusing on Hamas
Sorry, but I doubt that. Right now there are at least two other major conflicts, each with more casualties (the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Sudanese civil war), yet the interest in Lemmy and like minded places is like that meme with the drowning kid and the skeleton (inb4 someone accuses me of “antisemitism” - I’m pointing out that Israel is singled out, not accusing anyone of anything).
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So the responsibility is on the IDF, then.
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As the IDF has done. So you’re saying that the IDF is a terrorist org, right? Right??
I say it. Yes it is! If it commits terrorism to attack his enemies then yes it’s a terrorist org.
All religious ethnic based terrorist orgs have their reason, they all believe they are doing the right thing. In the case of religious based they all believe to be the children’s of god and His favourite people.
What makes it a terrorist org isn’t reason or right or wrong sides, what makes it terrorist is the way it attacks it’s enemies to achieve their goals.
So hell yes they are terrorists because of they have done.
If a group of militants decided to have a meeting in the basement of a fully occupied apartment building in NYC, you believe it would be ethical for the US military to destroy the building and kill hundreds of people in their homes?
According to the CIA world factbook (the only source I could find) the population spread in gaza is:
0-14 years: 38.8% (male 427,450/female 404,288) 15-64 years: 58.3% (male 627,235/female 620,903) 65 years and over: 2.9% (2024 est.) (male 31,655/female 30,112)
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/#people-and-society
Meaning about 30% of the population are males over 14.
So I guess Israel isn’t disproportionately murdering women and children, theyre just killing everyone. So genocide.
By eliminating the next generation(s) and the females in fertile age, it is more effective at wiping out a population than engaging directly with it.
This is valid for getting rid of vermin, capable of explosive breeding.
No need to guess what the results will be when applied to human beings.
This is a weird way to phrase this.
Dehumanization works because many of the popular cultures around the world treat non-humans terribly. As we’re talking about the “cradle” of Western civilization, we’re talking about pastoralists especially.
Nice nick name.
Yeah except no. Let’s not.
It got a reaction out of you because if the way it is phrased, didn’t it? That was the objective.
Sadly enough, those who triggered this disaster think in these same terms. And look where it has led.
Yeah well I think I’d be more impressed if you extended empathy rather than more callous disregard for humans
That is a fair criticism. I respect it.
I’m not subtracting my own empathy towards those people by choosing to denounce their aggressors through harsh words. I’m throwing vitriole towards their aggressors.
I get this and this is part of the basis of satire, right?
But the more speech is focused on the dark side, the more our brains focus on the dark because that’s how they work. Eg “Don’t think of a bear,” vs “think of a duck.” But it’s ultimately your writing to style as you’d like
In case anyone forgot from autumn 2023:
On Saturday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Israelis were united in their fight against Hamas, whom he described as an enemy of incomparable cruelty. “They are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,” Netanyahu said in Hebrew. He then added: “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.”
As others quickly pointed out, God commands King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel. “This is what the Lord Almighty says,” the prophet Samuel tells Saul. “‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
70% of people are women and children.
I guess the point you’re making is that this essentially shows that Israel is targeting any palestinian, not just hamas. That’s genocide.
Yup.
Sounds so much nicer to say “killing everyone” instead of “genocide” right?
70% of Hamas aren’t.
What does this tell us about Israel’s goals?
Is that just because 70% of people are women and children or is there bias?
The math leans towards the former, but when the two hypotheses suggested by the data are “we are actively and selectively targeting noncombatants” and “we just don’t give half a shit who we’re killing,” in a sane world you’d be universally branded as “the baddies” in the conflict.
They’re bad I just want a better understanding of what’s happening so I can more accurately hate Israel
I wish there was a way to convince them that murdering your neighbors then stealing their land is fucking evil.
Sorry. Not casting aspersions on you, just despairing at the situation.
I would consider the latter to be depraved indifference, but the former to be maliciously genocidal.
Of the two, the former is much, much worse than the latter. And with everything being a spectrum of some kind, the former is much further along the path to being evil than the latter.
With that said, there is no single person pushing all the buttons in Israel; as such, I am sure there are people in the Israeli command structure that represent the former much more than the latter, and vice versa.
But if there is one characterization I feel is wholly appropriate: on Oct 6, Israel looked at the evil of Hamas and said, “hold my beer and watch this.” And boy, did they ever deliver.
44% children, 26% women, 30% men. Gaza is about half under 18, so that’s nearly randomly killing people. That said, these are only confirmed fatalities, so presumably susceptible to bias.
The report is here
No bias, they are just killing everyone on sight.
Why are so many women and children joining Hamas?
Why is Hamas using their own people as shields? Why did the people let Hamas rule?
Why did the people let Hamas rule?
I know you really think this is a defense of Israel, but I encourage you to actually find the answer.
Do I have to ask the Illuminati? Or aljazeera?
I engaged in good faith and you continue to be a shithead. Bye.
I wouldn’t call that good faith, but nice try.
How about Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s.
Oh look - a New York Times reporter saved us the trouble. Turns out that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who also corroborated this statement).
…there’s that, and the whole military occupation to maintain an apartheid state in an open air concentration camp, the decades-long annexation campaign. You’ll be surprised to learn that people find that kind of thing upsetting.
Thank you for providing the first real information here. But the last paragraph doesn’t sit right with me, the things hamas did is not resistance. And also you make it sound like the Palestinians didn’t chose “Hamas” but in the end you try to relativize what happened on 7th of Oct as a result of “military occupation” etc.
So what now? Also I think its pointless to bring this up here, but seeing how people react across the world in terms of the terror atrocities, its quite clear on what side the palestianias stand on…on the wrong one. I am really sorry for people who ACTUALLY want to have a peaceful live, no matter what religion or origin.
The PLO were in power, Israel knew who Hamas were, and funded their rise to power (for what reason other than to manufacture the pretext for this genocide?), they also created and maintained the conditions that would motivate and justify violent resistance, so yes - Israel are responsible for Hamas.
In maintaining the horrible conditions I pointed to, Israel further motivated people to push back by any means necessary while giving them as little as possible to live for.
You don’t get to tell us you want peace as you defend a genocide. You don’t get to tell us about atrocities as the IDF gleefully document dozens per day, and you don’t get to tell the people you’re genociding that they’re wrong.
With that all clarified, what would justifiable Palestinian self-defence look like, and do those principles apply equally to Israel?
So basically Hamas is an inside job in order for Israel to exterminate innocent people? And the reasoning for that is…? I guess 7th October was also a self made incident?
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Why? Because it’s so plain in sight that everybody knows about it? I doubt it.
Tell me why the people of Palestine voted for hamas (almost 20 years ago by the way).
If you don’t know, look it up. If you don’t care, that’ll explain all I need to know.
Well, nice. Rape is no resistance.
I’m asking why they voted for hamas nearly 2 decades ago and you run to October 7th.
Fine, rape is no excuse for genocide then.
I’d say any claims about rape being a justification for genocide have lost their weight after Israelis protested punishment of IDF soldiers for rape of prisoners on the basis of “Palestinians deserving it”. There are no moral arguments supporting begining, maintaining or continuing the genocide in Gaza.
Uhh sure, whatever floats your boat.
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You can’t actually be this ignorant…
Yes they can be that ignorant. Let’s stop pretending people are smart. The last 10 years has proven people are raging morons and proud of it.
I disagree - I think the majority know they’re lying, and support the genocide - they’re just cowards too gutless to say so.
You give these monsters any sort of push, and they start using Palestinian and Hamas interchangeably which really gives the game away… keep going, and they start screaming their support for wiping Palestine off the map.
I guess it’s “nice” to confirm that they’re still killing Palestinians at random.
Yeah, no shit
In the US those who abstained from voting or voted third party have sealed Gaza’s fate.
Who the hell do you think has been president for the entirety of this slaughter?
Neither of the candidates for election.
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Right, that includes Trump. Its been a democrat funding and supporting this genocide the entire time. You hypocrites cant use these deaths to fuckin support democrats.
because Donald “I will let Netyanahu finish the job” Trump is somehow better for this. Get your head out of your ass lol
I agree that Donald Trump is much worse for the situation in Palestine and that it was a mistake for anybody to sit out because of what’s happening. But I think it also needs to be said that the Democrats didn’t really offer any alternative besides plausible deniability, and so it seems strange to me to pin the responsibility on the disengaged
He’s been finishing the job just fine under Biden. I’ve gotten to the point where I can’t honestly see what the difference is(in this particular issue). There was a time where wholesale annihilation and annexation was unacceptable but since that’s cool can you point me to where exactly you think the Dems red line exists? Because it certainly seems to be beyond the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
The difference is that Biden has not once come out to say “i will help neyyanahu flatten Gaza” and from what I’ve read has been criticising him (to the best of his old man abilities).
It sucks that U.S. kept sending weapons to Israel for one reason or another, but the key difference here is that with a democratic president you had a higher chance of getting thru.
Good luck getting Trump to listen to anything at all. And I guess good job for letting Trump take the president seat, not only will he help flatten Gaza (which Biden seemingly was doing anyway), but will also flatten women’s rights in the U.S., will flatten healthcare and education, will flatten any climate change progress, and will let Russia flatten Ukraine. An astounding failure for the entire world, just because your only issue was “b-but think of Gaza!”
I hope you’re happy with your moral high ground because you decided to not vote for Genocide Kamala and instead let Destroy Everyone Trump win.
I hope you’re happy with your moral high ground because you decided to not vote for Genocide Kamala
There have been such astounding things said with a straight face this year.
To the best of his abilities my ass. Reflexively excusing his continued total support for Israel even after the election is delusional. It’s pretty obvious that you had no chance of getting any different result from a Democrat on this issue than a Republican.
And getting mad at me about it is kind of pointless, as I live in Maryland’s sixth and my vote for a Democrat house member is the only national vote that mattered (and in this case it really did matter). Despite that I did end up voting for Harris. Maybe you should get mad at the Dems morally bankrupt leadership instead of me.
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Take a minute to read that headline again. You got Trump for this now, because you insisted to everyone to accept that headline, those deaths, that ‘better than this’ just isnt an option. You wouldnt permit people that care about life, that oppose genocide somewhere else to go. So they went nowhere, because genocide is not an option.
And yet accelerated genocide is the option that was chosen.
Look, I get the argument you’re making. The problem is that it hinges entirely on accepting a premise that isn’t based in reality. Progress, specifically as it relates to harm reduction, doesn’t happen instantaneously. It never has. You take the wins you can get and then push for the next step. You can be mad about that, and I would argue that we all should be, but it’s not going to change the way things work. In this case you’ve let idealism get in the way of actual tangible improvement. Even if you disagree with that characterization you can’t dispute the fact that you’ve at least helped shut the door on the potential for improvement. If you can find a way to rationalize that in your head to make you feel like the good guy then I understand why you would want to take that path, but do you honestly believe the people of Gaza take solace in the fact that you had good intentions? I’d wager they don’t give a shit how you frame this in your mind. They’re just thinking about what a Trump presidency means for the future of this conflict and that isn’t good by any stretch of the imagination.
This is deranged. Progress? Improvement? What did Kamala say she would do differently? Did she say she’d stop sending weapons and financial assistance?
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Yes it is. It’s the one you got. Congrats on maintaining your ideological purity. It’s going to be quite a show.
The ideological purity of
checks notes
Not supporting genocide
Thanks we will take it.
I dont know what ‘yes it is’ is in response to.
Your bloody avoidance for voting anyone has led not only to Gaza getting flattened, but also women’s rights, lgbt rights, any form of medical care, Ukraine, and the climate.
The blood is on your fucking hands now. At least Kamala would have seen reason and you could probably have talked to her/her party about Israel.
Good luck with fucking ignorant Trump, who won’t even listen when a woman says no to him.
But thank God you didn’t vote for anyone doing genocide! I will feel so relieved you did that when Russia has a border with my fucking country
You are describing things that have already happened, are current events, all under democrats, and them promising more of the same.
I did vote, for the candidate that opposes the genocide.
Liberals can’t accept they endorse this genocide.
Liberals see themselves as “somewhat left wing” but they’re centre right at best. When met with the slightest turmoil they just turn into fascists.
as a techie i can confirm a lot of liberals are also bigots who look down on anyone not having fancy college degrees and live in rural areas. for them gaza is an irritation which costed their favourite team the nba finals.
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This slaughter so far
I put it this way, Trump comes in and wipes Gaza off the map. Hes only responsible for a fraction of the destruction because the vast majority of Gaza is already gone.
So how far do we go back then? Because Israel has been causing destruction in Gaza for probably a dozen presidents
Yeah, we need to do better than republican and democrat zionist presidents. Though, in recent years it was isolated to a humanitarian crisis, Israel wasnt invading, they just had a stranglehold of Gazas borders. Entirely under Biden though Israel has completely invaded and bombed the whole of the country from northern to southern border.
Rainbows and unicorns for everyone.
Your bar is disgustingly low if opposing genocide is asking too much
Are you talking about buildings or people? Because the death toll in Gaza is estimated to be ~40,000 while the population is ~3,000,000. That’s 1.3% for those playing along at home.
Which, if you’re a bit slow on the uptake, means get ready for Trump and Netanyahu to have their way with the remaining 98.7% of Gaza.
But hey, that’s democracy I guess. Personally I enthusiastically voted for Harris, but the people of the US and Israel have spoken and so now we let the chips fall where they may.
Territory mostly. They started from the top and moved down, displacing a majority of the people there. Gaza practically no longer exists, and the Palestinians have become…hang on theres a word for this, a diaspora.
The official death toll is around 43k but estimates range much higher, likely over 100,000. The entire healthcare system in Gaza has collapsed so they cannot identify and put an official tally on many of those killed.
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What are the numbers today if Hamas killed?
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Try reading the article.
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That’s because Mama’s surrounds military targets with civilians.
Look at what atrocities hamas has forced the idf to do for over a year now!!! Seriously, I can’t believe you’re trying to make this argument at this point.
It’s so predictable too. Did someone do something indefensible and you don’t want to face up to it? Try blaming the victim today! Ask your propagandist if victim blaming is right for you.
This Mama’s a real jerk then
My autocorrect apparently doesn’t know the word Hamas.
And right now liberals are cheering on more of them.
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You must not be on twitter or tiktok. I can’t count the number of tweets Ive seen from LIBERALS that say they hope trump turns Gaza into glass.
They told you they were liberals and you believed them huh
Their post history tells me they’re liberals. They don’t have to say it out loud
If they hope Gaza turns to glass, they must be right of center, by definition.
