- cross-posted to:
- simpleliving@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- simpleliving@lemmy.ml
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“What if we took a place known for being quiet and made it loud?”
Ok, then let’s make a new space called a loudbrary.
You’re implying “li” means quiet and I have no choice but to believe this madness because I can’t be bothered to look it up.
I’m sure the Loudbrarian could help you with that.
WHAT?!
I DON’T KNOW ASK LOUD BRIAN!
megaphone crackles to life
It comes from the Latin libre, meaning free.
until now
This is incorrect.
From Wikipedia:
The term library is based on the Latin word liber for ‘book’ or ‘document’, contained in Latin libraria ‘collection of books’ and librarium ‘container for books’.
I accept the correction.
I accept your acceptance of the correction.
I witness this agreement to accept the correction
deleted by creator
I’m pretty sure it’s from the Latin word for book, liber, and has nothing to do with “free”
LIBERARY
RRAAAHHH
Perhaps some sort of community drinkbrary, as seen in the image.
To be fair libraries are very active places, there are plenty of quiet spaces in most of them as well for this reason. Why can’t we accommodate everyone? We aren’t talking pumping music, just basic conversation, which already happens.
If it gets too loud, there’s always the quiet places for people that want more peace ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
We aren’t talking pumping music…
YOU may not be but I guarantee that within the first 60 minutes at least three people are going to try and do just that.
If it’s against the rules, they’ll be kicked out, like it happens already… and if they allow the music, well you are free to choose another library that fits your specific needs. Just like the ones using the louder library since it’s already for them.
Be honest, how long has it been since you’ve been in a public library?
Since I’m a Technical Consultant for my local library I can honestly say I was in one just last week. In fact I’m logged into their system right now making some adjustments to their public access computers. I know what patrons are doing when they think no one is looking and I know exactly what would happen if Libraries were open late so people could lounge around.
Many libararies are already employing Security Staff to keep things under control during regular hours and there is no reason to think that it get any better ‘after dark’ so to speak.
So you work offsite, rarely visit, and are making sweeping judgements on how patrons you don’t even see or interact with would be behaving in a hypothetical scenario?
Lol.
Was there again this morning and remembering this “conversation” I asked the Executive Director, Business Manager, and the Assistant Director about it.
These were the three comments they all made, although in slightly different orders:
-“How is it going to be funded? Keeping the Staff and Security here until 10PM or later would be expensive and its not in our budget.”
-“A lot of people won’t come out after dark so it would likely be the same people that come and sit here all day. They’d just be staying later.”
-“We have enough behavior problems during the day. I can’t imagine how it would get late at night.”
I also asked the head Librarian about the Library as a 3rd Space for the public. She shook her heard and said “I understand the idea but it wouldn’t work. The Staff isn’t here to play baby sitter so people can sit around and chat.”
So there ya’ go; three Administrators and a Librarian.
Now I challenge YOU to go to YOUR local Library and talk to the Administrators and Librarians there. I’m interested to know what they tell you.
the part where logging in to a computer remotely is apparently as good as visiting a place in person fucking sent me. this is what being online 24/7 does to a person.
Reviewing the actual logs which collect data over long periods is more reliable.
Btw where the fuck did they say that they never visited the place? For all we know they have worked for the library onsite for months or even years.
this is what being online 24/7 does to a person.
Yeah, I know what you mean…
One word: headphones
Please. People regularly ignore that social convention in public spaces like Mass Transit and Parks. Why do you think libraries would be any different?
“Speakers not allowed. Anyone using them will be expelled and banned from entering again” (or something like that)
I’ve got to be honest that picture is just a pub with books.
But free and no booze, so
I’d prefer free with booze ty
A library doesn’t care about you buying shit just to be there though?
Hell if I could just bring my own food to a pub and hang out I would.
I wonder if the public perception and use of libraries would be improved if they weren’t these strangely silent book temples and were instead places of public learning and conversation.
My county library has tons of spaces to be loud and engage with others, hosts a lot of events and to be honest has only a few quiet spaces.
The public perception of libraries being super quiet book temples is really outdated.
Were they even that way? I mean, from as long as I can remember there was quiet and non quiet times, quiet and non quiet spaces in librairies. I’ve never heard of one were it is fully silent all the time. Isn’t that just the case in movies for comedic effect?
In my VERY limited experience, school libraries tend to be quiet/silent while public ones are more communal with varied loudness spaces. But a lot of people only experience school libraries.
My hometown library was quiet all the time in the 80s, but it was also basically one really large room and any noise carried really well so they enforced quiet. The state college library was similar, and enforced quiet when I went in the 90s because people were studying.
Most libraries in the movies are also large, open spaces and like everything else they play up the extremes or the writer’s experiences. Since movies tend to stick with stereotypes, so don’t expect a library scene in a movie without someone being hushed any time soon.
I wish. Getting scolded by an old crone for daring to use your voice in the library never leaves you. Children can be excited or loud sometimes, but libraries exist to make them seen, not heard.
Your library isn’t? Mine has events all the time
Two words: flourescent lighting
Guess what’s not depicted in the above illustration?
Something the AI that drew it left out. Dude on the couch on the left has three feet. This is as much as the AIs vision as it is the OPs, without the prompt we’ll never know.
I think there is room for both. Our library has a small restaurant and hall for lounging and isn’t quiet at all. But the main library is business as usual and quiet.
Outside of normal operating hours? Why not?
The place you’re talking about isn’t even open during the hours being discussed. Which is the entire point of this post.
Who cares who is being loud are they disturbing the non-existent regular patrons?
Libraries weren’t created to be quiet places. They were created to preserve and share knowledge.
And to steal it from others. Sure, Alexandra might have given you back a copy, but not the original.
If you have a book and I have a book we have two books
Yes. I want to start this library.
Books help keep track of science and share it efficiently but the only knowledge we have is the one we still have when showering.
I like to picture water proof books.
Hey! My first Book was one of those bath book for Babys…
I mean, temporarily loud. I think that would be OK.
During specific hours so everyone can plan accordingly? Yes. Absolutely we should do this.
It’s not about turning it into a place for discussion really. Part of it’s just being around other people. I’m willing to bet that there are studies out there that suggest that even being around other people in settings like this is healthy and has some benefits.
and we’ve circled back to the missing third place – libraries as community centers, family friendly pubs and bars, coffee shops that don’t require buying half the menu to just hang out, walkable (and bikable) cities where people can go for an evening stroll without being afraid of being run over …
I want this so bad. Why can’t the car loving suburbanites who visit Europe and love it just get on board?
Cars are not freedom, if anything they take it away while making life miserable for everyone.
Cars aren’t good and I’d like to have less of them… but they’re not responsible for all that ails us.
I’ve got a nice local coffee place where I buy a single drink then sit and read for ~45 minutes. Very nice would recommend
I used to ho to a cafe that has a small book exchange library in the back. You could just go there, pick a book and read it with your coffee then bring the book home if you wish before bringing it back once your are done with it.
Man I wish I had something like that here. Closest I can get is the coffee shop attached to the big brand bookstore.
Yes ! A thousand time yes !
The library are the last third places publicly accessible.
What we need is more third places where we can just meet other people, neighbors without the expectation to spend money.
Like the park?
Parks close early too
Some parks don’t close at all
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a closed park in Australia. Maybe I don’t get out much though.
How do you close a park? Are the parks fenced/gated?
Yep.
Or you put up signs and pay security/police/bylaw officers to patrol.
I guess so?
Precisely, like the park.
our mid-sized town put in the charter that bicycling and walking facilitation be funded. And boy-howdy did they do it! I can walk on sidewalks now instead of the busy roads. There is even a six mile asphalt walking trail now. Gotta go to the meetings, organize, and put pressure on these city council people. Most are inactive by the look of them.
Libraries would need more funding to operate extended hours…
Then people would complain about gov’t spending and taxes. Then we would privatize the libraries
This is why we cant have nice things
Turns out brainwashing a society to be selfish consumers has side effects like: not wanting to spend their money on services for the public good.
“They aren’t me, why should I care!?”
Or even if you personally benefit from public services, you’ll still complain about “muh tax dollars!!”
Years and years ago my friends mom was complaining about taxes for public school. I said ‘but your kids were public schooled!?’ and she responded, perfectly seriously, “yeah but not anymore.” (We had recently graduated). I have never forgotten this. It’s real. Real people think like this
I fucking hate those people so much. It’s those people and the “I don’t have kids” people that are the reason why teachers have to buy their own damn supplies that the kids actually need.
This isn’t a charity, those teachers are working and deserve their full income (that already isn’t high enough because of the previously mentioned assholes.)
Always worth reminding those without kids that someone else’s kid will be the doctors keeping them healthy, building their homes, working out how to power society as they fight to hold back the immense tide of global ecosystem collapse due to humanitiy’s hubris and need for constant gratification with a minimised focus on the impact decisions have on the future.
I like to remind those without kids that they were kids themselves and got an education.
That went south quick… What I meant to say was that we need to invest in building skills in young people. Not skimping on it like it’s an annoying sycophant begging for succour.
I really don’t understand the “my tax dollars!” argument. Like, it’s a pool of resources and you deducted as much as you could, Robert.
Capitalists trying to convince the public to privatize things has nothing to do with cost; even if they were free, every dollar saved by the public represents a potential profit they’re losing.
Ah yes, privatization will make it cheaper because of competition…
meanwhile one company buys out all the competition, monopolizes, charges more, and becomes the modern day version of a duke or lord. Yay capitalism
Cheaply selling drinks (maybe non-alcoholic) would probably more than off-set the additional costs.
I wanna get lit at the library though.
Litbrary
Nothing a flask can’t fix.
We held a private work event at the museum one time… I got loaded on whisky and went to see all the dinosaur bones. It was one of the best nights of my life
Lib[ation]rary
Imbibe-rary
I don’t want to read at library where people are getting lit - and it misses the whole point of having a healthy third place to be. Take your book to a bar if you want that 😆
Yes but it needs to be a nice cognac or fancy cocktails.
I prefer getting non-fiction. But I once frequented a bar called The Library. It was not wholesome…
Coffee, tea, chocolate, lemonade, …
Add some waffles and I join the project!
I’m pro-library, and many reduced hours during the pandemic and never picked it back up. Resources are shrinking for them.
And it sucks that there’s so many society problems and places like libraries and ER rooms get slashed resources. Because these spaces serve a public good, for neighborhoods, and the unhoused.
these spaces serve a public good, for neighborhoods, and the unhoused.
This is why I don’t get the generalized hate on taxes. If I worked and had to give like 90% away for taxes and was left just with pocket money I would be absolutely on board if that meant that the money went to what you mentioned above. Guaranteed healthcare, good education for kids, an apartment, basic foods. Imagine having everything you need provided to you and just having 200-300€ a month to spend on what you will. Theater, movies, a fancy restaurant, or save up for a small trip. And all the while you know you’re safe, and your neighbor is safe, and in the fancy third wave coffee shop you sit next to the garbage man and the finance attorney because both have pretty much equal money to spend. But somehow just the idea of having to pay taxes turns so many people off.
quite sad that politicians and the billionaires funding them just dont care about their own country
In his book Humankind Rutger Bregman talks about the election of a mayor in a city in Venezuela who campaigned on the notion that he wouldn’t do the job. After years of corruption and broken promises from other politicians, the people hated the mayor so much they liked this idea a lot.
Part of his job was to create a budget. So he told everybody to submit a budget, and gave them last year’s as a template. The general consensus was that they’d happily raise their taxes to pay for new parks and bus routes.
(This is a half remembered summary but I highly recommend the entire book.)
I think the real reason we can’t have nice things is because we don’t have a way to make sure nice things can happen.
Those damn librarytarians!
Also librarians maybe want the same free time as their families
Nobody says the same librarian would be 24/7 there.
Presumably not the same one no, but somebody has to cover it. Not a job that’s traditionally shift work in my past of be world, so a sizeable change for existing staff. I think a community ran version would be better for this sort of idea, or if people are aware of the less formal evening setting doesn’t have to be full librarians on staff, reduced service sort of thing.
No citizen, third places are not allowed except for church, mother says so. Now back to your depression cave! You need to be at work on time or we’ll confiscate it!
This is the design
In Brussels there is a library that’s “open” as late as 22:00. There’s an after hours program where you register for after hours access, sign an agreement, and your library card can be used to unlock the door. Staff is gone during off hours but cameras are on. Members are not allowed to enter with non-members (can’t let anyone tailgate you incl. your friends).
That sounds great. I don’t know, neither have heard of, any such place in your neighbor germany. Sadly so. Even I would visit such a place.
And how’s it going? No troubles? No asswipes coming in drunk (with their friends) or such? Is it even frequented?
I was only there once or twice in off hours. I think I was there once on a Sunday (normally closed all day so only open to after hours members) and once in the evening. It was quiet as I recall but I guess I’ve not made use of it enough to have an idea. It’s not overly busy in the after hours.
W.r.t. alcohol, the rules forbid eating and drinking in the library, but water is exceptionally allowed. I don’t know if they review the video without cause, but if someone breaks the rules, their after-hours access is terminated.
Funnily, we just discovered that one of our city-libs iss actually doing the exact same thing now too. As an experiment. And it seems they don’t have to deal with it. Quote: “i guess the library-folk is just a quiet and peaceful folk”. So, no problems and people love it.
We parrot you guys ☺️
My local library has 24h access for students to a special area designed for the purpose. During the day the same area is accessible to the public. It’s just a nicely laid out area with desks and chairs and a great view of the park.
It’s unbeatable at 5am with a stiff cup of coffee.
This is the utopia, but unfortunately, delinquents and no-good doers will harass the people in late night libraries and cafes. There is a cafe in my hometown that used to run 24/7 but anti-social behaviour made them close much earlier. Granted it has been an issue before, but the pandemic solidified the decision to no longer serve 24/7, especially with people no longer spending much time outside of their home any longer than it used to be.
Someone has to pay for the staff and maintenance too.
Despite inflation and growing user bases, libraries aren’t getting more money in most places.
Libraries are tax funded. It’s a service, not a business. Reallocate the money, preferably from the police.
That’s exactly my point. Municipalities set the budget and most don’t increase it enough year over year, if at all.
Staff budgets are one of the most costly aspects of libraries. Staffing another 12 or more hours would be millions of dollars more per year added to the budget.
We already fight tooth and nail for every penny we get. They’re not going to change their minds and double our budgets.
In fact, depending on where you live, their are people that would rather defund libraries bc someone convinced a swathe of people that they’re “too political.”
If by “engage in public life” they mean being quiet and not interrupting others’ quiet time then sure.
To me it sounds like people want another public space that isn’t a library. Once libations enter the picture it also feels like it’s not always going to be a safe place.
The forum!
Aren’t libraries becoming that place though?
Yes there are books at my library but they only consume about 25% of the floor by my guess.
Another 25% is hosted for weekly groups run by the library. My kids go to “rhyme time” there. They have “device help” sessions for the elderly.
Another 25% is just tables and chairs, with a great view of the main street. It can be sectioned off so you can book a part of it for a community group gathering. Otherwise it’s people reading, knitting, doing jigsaws, that stuff.
About 15% is a study area which is accessible to the public during open hours or 24 hours for students. Great view of the park from here.
The remaining 10% is admin stuff. Every library I’ve been to in West Aus either is, or aspires to be this kind of format. They’re not just about books.
I kinda wonder how much time other commenter here have spent at their libraries.
I do spend my time in libraries, thank you very much :) Didn’t expect there to be gatekeeping on libraries, but here we are.
And a big part of such activities is either that they’re cordoned off and airgapped (and are done on select timings which are telegraphed way ahead of time) or are themselves quiet. Drinking and socialising to me don’t come under that same category. I’ve been to a library next to a board game shop and been struck by the difference in noise level and distraction there, so if it comes down to what the OP is actually suggesting, I’m skeptical it won’t intrude on others’ needs for a quiet, private place.
That’s not gatekeeping. Gatekeeping would be: you guys shouldn’t go to libraries because reasons. Im merely expressing an opinion that few people here seem to know what happens in libraries.
Case in point:
[…] a quiet, private place.
This doesn’t really describe a library in 2024. I’m sure there are some libraries in which talking and interacting is still discouraged, but that’s not the norm in my experience.
Why I think it’s gatekeeping:
You’re essentially implying people haven’t been in libraries by your last sentence if they haven’t seen what you’ve seen. That’s gatekeeping, like it or not.
EDIT: In case it isn’t clear, what you said was essentially:
“You’re not a library-goer because [reasons].”
That’s gatekeeping, my person.
Nonsense. Lets not co-opt “gatekeeping” to cover any sort of attitude we find distasteful, shall we?
Looking at a bunch of definitions of gatekeeping the closest I can find is this:
gatekeeping refers to the actions of individuals or groups who try to define what is and isn’t acceptable within a particular community and determine who is and isn’t allowed to participate.
My assertion:
I kinda wonder how much time other commenter here have spent at their libraries.
You really can’t co-opt that into the definition of gatekeeping.
I think libraries vary a lot. Your library sounds lovely. My local ones are half way between what you are describing and the quieter places others are describing. But they are actively trying to be a third place.
I think your point is “some libraries are third places”. And that point would hit harder if you gave folks grace. Don’t assume they are speaking from ignorance but invite them to check out libraries if they haven’t. I dunno.
This sounds cool as fuck. There would be literal book clubs hanging out at night. People are so overworked that most don’t even socialize properly these days. Hanging out with folks to gush over that one series all of them enjoyed, without damaging your health or risking anyone else’s. But we get this instead…
That’s a two year old article.
If that’s the only example you can come up with, I’d said we’re not too badly off.
…you need an article to prove to you that bar culture is trash?
Bar culture is trash ? that’s a bold and broad statement
agreed, and it’s one i’m perfectly comfortable making, because I’ve left a bar thinking “wow that was fun i had a good time” exactly zero times, and “jesus h fuckin christ where do they get off charging so much for that swill in this noisy dump”. bars are awful as social spaces and need to die.
Well that was utterly convincing. You’ve made me do a full 180
Bars can be a ton of fun.
you’re clearly the kind of person we’re trying to escape be going to libraries instead of bars
You assume a lot from very limited information.
plenty of context to put that together chief, check your comment and the meme you posted it under and… look do really i need to spoonfeed you the very basic line of logic happening there? but if you treat meme comments like serious discussion then i see why you’re at the bar and not a party
No, it’s mostly because they can be a lot of fun.
We need more third places.
How about coffee shops with e-readers built into the tables preloaded with an enormous collection of books?
My neck hurts reading this comment lol
Not a bad concept though.
Most libraries near me have coffee shops built into or right next to them. Is this not common?
When I was in university the library was open 24/7
It was just the restricted areas that you couldn’t go to at night and those were appointment only anyway
You can also go to the restricted area at night, just gotta make sure to not be caught by Filch
We could wind up dead, or worse, expelled
I don’t understand what is funny here. Many university librairies are open until 9 p.m and there is still people at the closing that would stay later. If every librairie were open until 10 p.m or midnight, you can be sure that some people would make use of it.
I mean that’s great for uni students to some degree. I’d like a more accessible to anyone version personally
Idk how it works in your country but where I am, anyone can access a university library and many students also frequent the public library. So basically, if every library were open late, anyone could go to the library of they choosing.
Just be open evenings. I want to go, but I work full time and weekends are a whirlwind of kids and domestic stuff.
Ours is open 9-9 Mon-Thurs, 9-5 Fri&Sat and 1-5 Sunday. One of the few benefits living in a fairly large city.
At least Libby you can still borrow audiobooks from the library… when you’re stuck in traffic on your way home from work…
This isn’t the purpose of libraries. However, having car free streets and squares and parks with lights would be better choices.
This isn’t the purpose of a library you want. But I’d greatly want this type of library
Please leave us introverts one quiet place
Because both can’t exist right? It must be one or the other.
To be honest, this type of library is the only way I see public libraries surviving long term.
Some of the best ones I’ve been to balance space for community activities and space for quiet reading/study. I’m hoping to have one of those bad boys here relatively soon (on one of the most historically interesting blights of land in my city, too).
¿Por qué no los dos?
Agree!
For x number of months sure, where I am currently 5ish of those months are too cold to be outside.
Oh yeah, forgot about cold countries lol
Just serve alcohol and coffee and you’ll get lots of traffic
And we’re back to the concept of a bar
