The new standards are part of a broad push to get more Americans into electric vehicles, and reduce the environmental cost of driving.

  • treadful@lemmy.zip
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    1 month ago

    Don’t worry, we’ll just get even larger trucks that nobody actually wants to bypass these standards.

    • tpihkal@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      The larger truck exist b/c of the standards. It’s more economical to change the weight class of a vehicle than it is to make the vehicle more environmentally friendly.

      Edit: “more economical” -> “more environmentally friendly”

      • Hugucinogens@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 month ago

        I’m 70% sure that the larger truck exists because exceptions have literally been made to the law on purpose due to lobbying, which is why every company pivoted to them.

        • DaleGribble88@programming.dev
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          1 month ago

          As far as I am aware, current fuel economy standards are primarily determined by the size of the wheel base. Some years ago, the EPA went from a reasonably managed chart to a specific formula that gets a little extreme on the ends.

          So you end up with craziness like a 95 ranger required to have 60mpg to meet the standard, and a 2024 f35 super mega ultra cab long bed to have like 3mpg to meet standards. (Numbers are made up, but that is the main idea as I understand it)

    • PsychedSy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 month ago

      Large trucks exist because of wheel base allowance. Small, slow, borderline useless cars exist to keep fleet average low.

    • spyd3r@sh.itjust.works
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      1 month ago

      People buy trucks for towing and hauling, and bigger is better and safer for towing.

      The real problem is every other type of vehicle has become so useless and disposable (shittily made) to meet fuel economy standards that you can’t tow anything with them and are forced to buy a raging-mega-huge truck to get a high enough GCWR/GVWR and big enough motor to safely and reliably haul stuff.

      • JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        You may live somewhere where people constantly tow travel trailers or large boats, but this isn’t the case everywhere. Loads of people buy trucks with the idea the bed will be used every other weekend, then they end up commuting to an office job and getting groceries. If they were primarily used for hauling things around, the average truck wouldn’t have a larger passenger cabin than its cargo bed.

        Station wagons can just as easily go to the hardware store and pick up full sheets of plywood, load up the lawn mower and trimmer, and as much sporting equipment as a family could wear. What wagons don’t have is the aggressive design that pick up trucks have come to be.

        Most cars could tow a single axle utility trailer if you needed to move what I mentioned - even appliances or furniture. I know a couple that tow a two person caravan with a Mini Cooper. Even when someone does need larger weight or volume capacity on a regular basis, a van has most of the benefits of a pick up truck with better fuel efficiency.

        • Malfeasant@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Just to bolster your point, I rented a U-Haul trailer for all my stuff last time I moved, including an enormous 3 piece solid oak entertainment center, and pulled it with a vw Jetta wagon.

          • JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            Couldn’t put it on the roof? I saw a wagon once with a chest freezer strapped to the roof and couldn’t stop laughing.

            U-Haul is a titan of the moving industry, but it’s still surprising how few people would consider an occasional rental, be it a trailer like you used or even a truck, as part of owning a regular car. You spent around $100 to rent that trailer for a day? Imagine spending quadruple that - every month for a decade - just to ensure you have 24/7 access to 24 square feet of cargo space. Not to mention double in fuel compared to your Jetta.

            Even ignoring the renting aspect, pretty well everyone knows a couple people that already have a pick up truck. Just borrow it for a day or two when you do a project or buy a new stove, fill the tank, and buy them their beverage of choice. It’s not complicated.

            More people should be like you.

            • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              Last time I moved I rented a U-Haul. It was uneventful. Reserved it, picked it up, used it, returned it.

              These people spend a years salary on oversized crap that gets terrible efficiency, kills pedestrians, blocks views, just on the off chance they can move something once a decade.

              There was this lazy shit that worked at a place I was at once, fairly confident he has antisocial personality disorder. Guy makes a dollar over minimum wage per hour and bought a F250. Yes the person who works maybe 45 minutes a day is going out there moving lumber on the weekend

              • JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world
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                1 month ago

                I agree. A truck can be a good option for some, but as you point out, most people aren’t doing a DIY project each weekend. The F150 can be optioned out to a six figure price tag. It’s inconceivable to me.

                I’m acquainted with the owner of a middle sized plumbing company, and he had a close call with a dog that got loose one day. Not his fault, and he was able to stop in time, but nonetheless it bothered him. Couple months go by and he switched all his service trucks out for transit vans.

                The newer style vans with the slanted front end gives far more visibility, twice the cargo space without having to climb up into the bed, they don’t weigh as much, and are more fuel efficient. All at the same price point.

                An unfortunate side effect of modern life is that many people see purchases like a vehicle or a house as these monthly costs that, on the face of them, they can afford. The trouble is they don’t consider the overall cost of the purchase, let alone the ongoing cost in terms of routine maintenance and unexpected repairs.

                It’s a shame, but when something is marketed as though it’ll make you the toughest in town, who wouldn’t pay $181.50 weekly at 0% APR ~for the first three months~.

                • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  I am just going to point out that my in-laws (who live in the developing world) run their rental properties, farm, and general store with two motorcycles and a tractor. That tractor btw I want to shot with a gun and put it out of its misery since I am pretty sure it’s diesal ass should have died in the 1980s. I am pretty confident that if two people in their mid-60s can do it the vast vast vast majority of people don’t need an oversized pickup.

                  Also I have been involved with construction since my uni days and just about every contractor I have dealt with has a van.

      • Duamerthrax@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        People buy trucks for towing and hauling, and bigger is better and safer for towing.

        All the lifted duallies with caps and rubber band tires would say different.

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        I never ever see people towing and hauling with those machines. My Honda Civic is 16 years old and is fine, my car before that was a Nissan Sentra and died at 22 years old.

        New cars are not shitty.

        • BURN@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          New cars are kinda shitty. They collect a ton of data, don’t let you actually drive, have a million unecessary features built in to try to reduce the stupidity of drivers who should be nowhere near a motor vehicle and are super ugly to boot.

          I do know a lot of people who tow, but I’m in motor racing circles where people are regularly hauling race cars through multiple states every week.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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            1 month ago

            New vehicles are like that.

            If you think your new truck doesn’t do all the same data collection shit, you’re sorely mistaken. They’re all made to make a profit. If they can collect data and profit off of it after the sale, they’re going to. Trucks aren’t exempt from this.

            • BURN@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              Well yes, I don’t have a truck. I have a performance sportscar from the early 2010s instead. They’re all bad past early 2010s tbh.

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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                1 month ago

                I love that new vehicles ae more efficient, but everything else sucks. The car market needs to be shaken up. There’s no real competition anymore. A new company could probably make so much money by using modern technological advances, but including all the manual dials and things we used to get standard, and preferably without the data harvesting.

                • BURN@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  Yes, but they’d miss out on the long term revenue, which is what everyone is chasing nowadays. There’s be no investors.

                  Tbh as a car enthusiast there’s been a few advances I’ve been interested in, but nothing really game changing in the affordable range.

            • BURN@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              Those are the base models for the most part. I’ve yet to see a new car better than something from 20 years ago

  • bamboo@lemm.ee
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    1 month ago

    Supposedly they want us all in EVs, but American manufacturers aren’t producing shit except for Tesla which are safety hazards, and they effectively banned Chinese competition that could have actually accomplished it. US car manufacturers will likely ignore these new standards by pushing more “light trucks” that are exempt.

    • Ranvier@sopuli.xyz
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      1 month ago

      Light trucks aren’t exempt, but have a different standard. The article posted lacks a lot of detail. First off, 50 mpg is just the expected average given the mix of “light trucks” and cars. The actual standards are 65 mpg for cars and 45 mpg for “light trucks.”

      The new standards require American automakers to increase fuel economy so that, across their product lines, their passenger cars would average 65 miles per gallon by 2031, up from 48.7 miles today. The average mileage for light trucks, including pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles, would have to reach 45 miles per gallon, up from 35.1 miles per gallon.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/07/climate/biden-mileage-electric-vehicles.html

      So actually the light truck standard isn’t far off of the 50 mpg figure this article inexplicably comes up with even though that’s not the standard for either cars or light trucks under the new rules.

      Heavy trucks and vans also are included in the policy with a greater percent increase than for cars and light trucks (though beginning from a lower floor).

      • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Prices for cars in general was at an all time high. Don’t piss on my shoe and tell me it’s raining. They’re still way overpriced.

        • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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          1 month ago

          You said the prices were too high, here is proof that the prices are coming down, almost 20% in a year.

          You said American manufacturers aren’t making cheaper EVs, this article talks about cheaper American EVs.

          You cried that American EV manufacturers are going to try to trick their way around regulations, while apterra is making 400 to 1,000 mile range EVS with solar charging 40 mi a day, a very clear example of auto innovation.

          Don’t throw a tantrum because your complaints were so flimsy.

          • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            You said the prices were too high, here is proof that the prices are coming down, almost 20% in a year.

            20% down after increasing overall for the last decade is not proof. You sound like some marketing manager telling me how the price of cereal has dropped by 20% afte you rose the price for the last 5 years by 300%…

            You said American manufacturers aren’t making cheaper EVs, this article talks about cheaper American EVs.

            No where did I say that …

            You cried that American EV manufacturers are going to try to trick their way around regulations, while apterra is making 400 to 1,000 mile range EVS with solar charging 40 mi a day, a very clear example of auto innovation.

            Yeah didn’t say that either…and aptera is a tiny company that doesn’t even have a final release on the car from their website… it’s probably going to be vaporware just like most of these EVs that sport massive mileage claims.

            Don’t throw a tantrum because your complaints were so flimsy.

            Lol yeah I’m the one throwing the tantrum…you EV militants are hilarious.

              • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                1 month ago

                I don’t hate on EVs, I think they’re great. The applications they have are for city drivers not for rural and long haul people or even people who live in apartments. They’re getting there but right now isnt the time to try and push everyone to EVs forcefully.

                • InternetUser2012@midwest.social
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                  1 month ago

                  Fair, I do think however, more people could use them but are falling for the propaganda. Apartment living could be an issue, especially if you can’t charge it at your workplace. Almost anyone with a house though, could get one and likely benefit from it.

            • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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              1 month ago

              It’s very clear you find hard evidence hilarious.

              'Vaporware".

              Don’t use words you don’t know the meaning of because you’re embarrassed of being proved wrong.

                • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 month ago

                  That’s what the entire article i provided is about. Don’t blame other people because you never learned how to read.

    • invertedspear@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      GM has the Bolt, and now the Silverado, Ford has the MachE and the Lightning, Dodge is catching up, mostly with Jeep of all brands.

      The Jeep wrangler PHEV is the top selling hybrid. The bolt and MachE are pretty great and can be found on the used market with decent miles for an affordable amount. The Lightning is a fantastic truck, better in almost every way that matters than the cyber truck. The Silverado EV is just launching but seems very capable.

      Ford is the number 2 EV seller behind Tesla. If you think American manufacturer aren’t producing shit, you’re just not looking.

      • bamboo@lemm.ee
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        1 month ago

        The only EV I can find from an American brand that is in any way appealing is the Bolt. Everything else is a giant truck or SUV, and to be honest I don’t feel safe driving such a huge piece of metal, and I don’t have the money to justify buying one. No American options are affordable or reasonably sized. The US is doing EVs in possibly the most unsustainable way possible.

        • invertedspear@lemm.ee
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          The MachE is the same size as the bolt and it’s rather affordable on the used market. It doesn’t feel like an SUV to drive and barely looks like one. If you don’t like the look, then you don’t like the look, but that doesn’t mean that American manufacturers “aren’t producing shit” it’s that they aren’t producing anything that fits your aesthetic. They will, because they will have to if they want to keep selling cars in California. Just going to take time to get more styles out there.

          • bamboo@lemm.ee
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            1 month ago

            The MachE is nearly a third larger than the bolt by weight, an already large car, as well as being larger than the bolt in every physical dimension, even if not by much (except for length, where there’s a nearly 2 foot difference). I just want a small compact car with enough range to get me to work and back and run a few errands. In 2000 most cars were reasonable sizes even in the US, but today you can find anything reasonably sized new. I don’t want an SUV or a “crossover”. In other coutures like China these vehicles are being built, but US politicians would rather protect the profits of car companies producing these massive, inefficient, unsustainable monster trucks for people to take to the office and back.

        • acchariya@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Look at the Hyundais, ~300 mile range, 15 min battery charge, and they have a sedan and a cuv wagon thing. They are also some of the cheapest leases you can get, and dealers are overflowing with them. It’s basically the EV wishlist, but for some reason I don’t see many on the road.

          • bamboo@lemm.ee
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            1 month ago

            Could you be more specific? I couldn’t find a single EV under $30k the cheapest one I could find on their website was $37.5k on their website. That’s not affordable, and 10k above where the bolt starts.

            • acchariya@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              They are expensive to buy outright, but that’s arguably a bad idea anyway due to the depreciation. They are leasing Ioniq 5 and 6 for less than $250/month and $200/month: https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/offers

              It’s cheaper than most of the gas cars in terms of cost to own over the period. If you want to buy. The Kona electric is $32,xxx

              • bamboo@lemm.ee
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                I’m not the kind of person that wants a new car always. I’d rather have a car that will last me 20 years. With that in mind, leasing is almost always much more expensive.

                • acchariya@lemmy.world
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                  I’m not the kind of person who wants a new car always either. I have a 15 year old Acura with 200k on it. At $300/month, I no longer have gas or maintenance expenses, and I don’t have to pump gas any more. Figuring in the cost savings, I figure I’m driving a $50k car around for around $100 month. Idk what will happen in 2027 when I give this thing back to them, but it definitely would have cost me more than $3600 in repairs over three years with a 200k mile Acura.

    • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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      For American manufacturers, Chevy has the Bolt (next year), the Blazer, and the Equinox. Ford has the Mustang Mach E. Lucid has the Air and the Gravity.

      The Apterra will also be available soon and that thing gets like 600 mile range. It’s only a two seater though.

    • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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      1 month ago

      This isn’t aimed at just American manufacturers (Tesla, GM, Ford) but all vehicles sold in the US. People always seem to resort to “American protectionism” and other falsehoods when discussing stuff like this or the proposed ban on Chinese EVs, but either miss or purposely ignore the rest of the market in the US. Nearly every company that sells here has at least one EV and many others have excellent fleet MPG like Toyota with all their hybrid options.

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        This isn’t aimed at just American manufacturers (Tesla, GM, Ford) but all vehicles sold in the US.

        Sure, but with almost no exceptions, the popular cars with the worst mileage are American ones.

        Most other rich countries have much more ambitious plans that include phasing out fossil fuel only cars COMPLETELY, and are able to do so because their politicians don’t have to kowtow to the intertwined interests of their owner donors from Big Oil and Detroit.

        People always seem to resort to “American protectionism” and other falsehoods when discussing stuff like this

        Because it’s NOT a falsehood. See above.

        • IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          People just don’t like them 🤷‍♂️

          Most of the folks who want an EV and who can live with an EV already have one. It’s not the politicians preventing people from buying.

          • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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            People just don’t like them 🤷‍♂️

            Most of the folks who want an EV and who can live with an EV already have one.

            None of that is true.

            It’s not the politicians preventing people from buying.

            No, they’re just enabling the people who are making it less viable in exchange for bribes.

            • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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              Until range and recharge time can complete with ICE vehicles, EVs will continue to be viable basically in the cities only. The USA is massive.

            • IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world
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              Okay, EV sales are hitting a plateau just as they become competitive and viable with ICE, because people love them. Whatever you say.

              • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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                Okay, EV sales are hitting a plateau

                I’m gonna need a source on that. That sounds extremely unlikely.

                just as they become competitive with ICE

                The technology has been competitive for a decade or more. There’s just more availability and better prices to fill an extremely underserved demand.

                When most people didn’t know that Teslas have the build quality of a 1980s Yugo, their only big problems were that they were too expensive and that they couldn’t keep up with demand.

                Those are still the main issues with EVs but as more automakers have joined the field, both problems are rapidly diminishing at the same time as people become increasingly aware of the fact that our survival as a species depends more than anything else on divesting from fossil fuels as quickly as possible.

          • InternetUser2012@midwest.social
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            1 month ago

            I’m a car guy, and I’d like to have one. I’m waiting for someone to make one fast and affordable like a tesla only not a tesla because elon is a d-bag. If he gets kicked out of the company, I’ll buy one the next day.